Nicolai's fate *spoilers*

[ThunderTitan]

Bah, you're hanging on to the little things. He's the betrayer.

I'm talking about the overall plot. Ur talking about the specific events and how they differ from H3. I already said it's not the exact same story, but very similar.

Good night.

[Orfinn]

Anyone seen this? Just look at the text and you'll know what I mean.

*COUGH* Crag Hack?? Along with Sandro is this just another easter egg teaser for us or do they have som sort of connection from Axeoth? (the world from H4)
What is their purpose this time, hmm?
At least good to hear that name again, long live the barbarians.....and the liches

[Gaidal Cain]

I am geting the point. The importance of the story isn't in global look, but in how it is told and how the story changes. In H3, the end of story would be killing king Gryphonheart, but H5, as how I have heard, has one campaign for every faction. And how humans are the in first campaigns, it can't end at same way. And don't forget the dark elves (which weren't in H3) and their hatred towards wood elves (whichs importance in H3 was minimal) and show me the similiarity.

Sure, the mode of telling can make two stories with the same basic premise seem totally different- but there can't be too many similarities. As for the dark elves, they're irrelevant in this matter. What's important here is that a very central piece of plot seems to be a very close replica of an earlier one. There are most likely two or three similarly important pieces of the histroy, but we don't know about those, and they're irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[ThunderTitan]

I tought that we are talking about story copying, not originality. Not even H3 had an original story. I saw more original ones.

Originality compared to the other HoMM games. They could have at least taken plot points from a Warhammer campaign or something. Taking it from H3 just seems lazy.

[Bandobras Took]

Sure, the mode of telling can make two stories with the same basic premise seem totally different- but there can't be too many similarities . . . What's important here is that a very central piece of plot seems to be a very close replica of an earlier one. There are most likely two or three similarly important pieces of the histroy, but we don't know about those, and they're irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I would say that whether or not the two or three similarly important pieces of the story are definitely relevant to the matter at hand, if we're discussing how much of a copy of RoE this is sounding like. As I said before, if Isabel wants the Necromancers to raise Nicolai, then that creates a world of difference between the two raisings. At which point we need to see if the other important story points are similar enough to warrant calling the thing a copy.

By itself, the fact that an important character gets turned undead is not enough to justify calling it a copy. Just like miraculous food appearing in both the Exodus of Israel and an episode of Star Trek is not enough to call Star Trek a copy.

[ThunderTitan]

Seeing as according to the lore so far the Necromacer don't even have a kingdom anymore I doubt Isabel will be the one to aproach them.

And changeing a few motives for the main characters doesn't create a world of difference, so what if she wants him raised, if in the end she still gets to destroy him? It's a variation on the same story.
There are countless repeats of stories all around the world that change some important aspects, but are still instantly recognizable as variations of eachother. I just don't see the need to do this here. So much for their "new" story...

EDIT: And i'm pretty sure that if Star Trek had a guy split a sea in half while leading his people out of slavery i'd consider it the same story, even if that guy was a three-headed klingon.

[Akul]

Sure, the mode of telling can make two stories with the same basic premise seem totally different- but there can't be too many similarities. As for the dark elves, they're irrelevant in this matter. What's important here is that a very central piece of plot seems to be a very close replica of an earlier one. There are most likely two or three similarly important pieces of the histroy, but we don't know about those, and they're irrelevant to the matter at hand.

It seems to me as if you look at only 3 factions: Heaven, Inferno and Necropolis. Sylvian, Dungeon and Academy may be important this time. The only problem is that thy are probably 3 last campaigns so you don't get their spoilers. Necromancers for one seem to want to attack wizards, not humans. In fact, alliance with humans, the most powerful faction in Ashan, would help theme in that. And Dark Elves could bring a huge twist to the story. So at end, the story starts to look similiar, but at end may dramaticaly change.

Originality compared to the other HoMM games. They could have at least taken plot points from a Warhammer campaign or something. Taking it from H3 just seems lazy.

Ad the one who made the column about cloning told, it is better to repeat H3 then to try new things.
That means that it would be safer to make storyline seem like the H3 one at begining.

Seeing as according to the lore so far the Necromacer don't even have a kingdom anymore I doubt Isabel will be the one to aproach them.

Why woudn't she? If wizards have declined the alliance (in H3 they were best friends), then she would want their enemies help. And nekromancers will use every mean necesary to take over wizards land. BTW, that doesn't look like H3, does it?

[ThunderTitan]

Right, it doesn't look like H3 because necromancers didn't want anyones land then. You also fail to see the difference between basic plot and actual events.

And the cloning issue was about gameplay, not story. They don't really need to play it "safe" with the story, H3 didn't live this long because of it's story.

Forget it.

[Gaidal Cain]

As I said before, if Isabel wants the Necromancers to raise Nicolai, then that creates a world of difference between the two raisings. At which point we need to see if the other important story points are similar enough to warrant calling the thing a copy.

I hardly think Isabel wants them to raise him as a Vampire...

[ThunderTitan]

Well i guess she'd prefer a Vampire to a Lich.

[Thelonious]

You know, let's summarize:

Agreal <-> Realag - Probably close connection.

Nicolai important king turns into an undead.

Isabel, important queen has to make things right.

Demons - want to destroy the earth.

Ok, now all possible plots:

1)
Agreal = Realag so Agreal betrays demons and ends demons (or so they think) by delivering an dead Nicolai to undeads, who use him to overthrow demons. Isabel grasps in the dark about this plot kills undead, demons rise, Isabel must defeat demons and undeads because of her dumb ass move. Academy and sylvan do their own thing.

2)
Academy moves to destroy undead - their age old hatred (campaign 1). Undeads need strong leader -> they want Nicolai. Mercenary Dungeon kill Nicolai (campaign 2). Undeads raise Nicolai, ward off Academy (campaign 3). Sylvan does own thing (campaign 4). Demons want to destroy the world (campaign 5). Humans need to set everything right (campaign 6)

3)
HoMM III (2nd time -> Thus HoMM IIIII -> Thus HoMM V )

4)
We were all wrong and Nicolai_vampire.ogg thingie = Nicolai meets Vampires. They all sit down and smoke some grass, and everyone's happy. Or Nicolai and Undead get together to destroy demons.


I hope that HoMM VI will not feature another Eclips - that would ensure many more HoMM III's ...

[ThunderTitan]

We were all wrong and Nicolai_vampire.ogg thingie = Nicolai meets Vampires. They all sit down and smoke some grass, and everyone's happy. Or Nicolai and Undead get together to destroy demons.

I happen to know from a very reputable source that the undead prefer tabacco... Anyone know where that article about drug addictions in H3 towns ended up?


And they way it's in the demo i'm thinking that first it's the Haven campaign, the demon.

[Bandobras Took]

EDIT: And i'm pretty sure that if Star Trek had a guy split a sea in half while leading his people out of slavery i'd consider it the same story, even if that guy was a three-headed klingon.

So at the end of X2, when Jean Grey's saving the X-Men, was your first thought, "This is a total rip-off of Moses!"

I'm not confusing story and plot. I'm saying that one similar plot element does not make for the same story. The other side of this argument seems to be saying that if Nicolai gets raised from the dead, this will make the Campaign the same as RoE.

Drawing that conclusion from one plot element hardly seems justified.

So what if she wants him raised, if in the end she still gets to destroy him? It's a variation on the same story.

Ermmm . . . on what do you base your assumption that she's going to be the one to destroy him?

As I said before, if Isabel wants the Necromancers to raise Nicolai, then that creates a world of difference between the two raisings. At which point we need to see if the other important story points are similar enough to warrant calling the thing a copy.

I hardly think Isabel wants them to raise him as a Vampire...

Because . . . why?

It seems to me that you're now arguing that things are going to be the same as the Heroes III campaign because you assume that things are going to be the same as the Heroes III campaign.

From all that I've seen, the Wizards refused to help Isabel. A Haven-Necromancer alliance is a distinct possibility, in which case it won't be up to Isabel to set things right; she'll be just as fallen if not more than Nicolai.

There isn't enough in the simple plot element of Nicolai being raised as undead to say that the story will be substantially the same as H3 with only surface differences.

[Gaidal Cain]

EDIT: And i'm pretty sure that if Star Trek had a guy split a sea in half while leading his people out of slavery i'd consider it the same story, even if that guy was a three-headed klingon.

So at the end of X2, when Jean Grey's saving the X-Men, was your first thought, "This is a total rip-off of Moses!"

Not quite. There's only one point they have in common- the splitting of the water. Everything else is quite different.

I'm not confusing story and plot. I'm saying that one similar plot element does not make for the same story. The other side of this argument seems to be saying that if Nicolai gets raised from the dead, this will make the Campaign the same as RoE.

Nope, but there are many points were the stories coincide- so many that I think wondering if Ubisoft actually has done any research at all into earlier storylines of the series is justified- and by that I just mean reading synopsises, so that they'd know about things like this and be able to tone down the similarities.

I hardly think Isabel wants them to raise him as a Vampire...

Because . . . why?

Although she seems a bit obsessed with him, it's quite from there to wish to see him raised as an undead abomination...

From all that I've seen, the Wizards refused to help Isabel. A Haven-Necromancer alliance is a distinct possibility, in which case it won't be up to Isabel to set things right; she'll be just as fallen if not more than Nicolai.

There isn't enough in the simple plot element of Nicolai being raised as undead to say that the story will be substantially the same as H3 with only surface differences.

I'm not saying it's going to be all the same, but the basic premise of a large part of it seems to be similar enough to worry about what they're doing at Ubisoft's story department.

Oh, and another thing- don't triplepost like that. There's an edit button, and it's easier for everyone else if you use it.

[ThunderTitan]

So at the end of X2, when Jean Grey's saving the X-Men, was your first thought, "This is a total rip-off of Moses!"

No, I though "Phoenix!" That's the pattern I saw. Right now I see a pattern in H5, and it's called H3 RoE!

I'm not confusing story and plot. I'm saying that one similar plot element does not make for the same story. The other side of this argument seems to be saying that if Nicolai gets raised from the dead, this will make the Campaign the same as RoE.
Drawing that conclusion from one plot element hardly seems justified.

Notice the nice list I made a while back about character corespondance? Maybe i'm wrong and the story will go in a completly new direction (half-dead babies or something ), but they do appear to be reusing alot of stuff that was in H3.

And what gets to me the most is that they kept saying that they'll make a more compeling story and stuff like that...

[Akul]

Right, it doesn't look like H3 because necromancers didn't want anyones land then. You also fail to see the difference between basic plot and actual events.

And the cloning issue was about gameplay, not story. They don't really need to play it "safe" with the story, H3 didn't live this long because of it's story.

Forget it.

What does their wish for land has to do with H3? Every damned faction in every damned story wish land. But nekromancers in H5 wish it more because they don't have any. They are just a secret comunity. And it is safer to go on side with most powerful kingdom (humans) then with demons who failed every time they attacked.

About cloning: No, it didn't. But Ubi wished the game to be as similiar to H3 as possible. Storyline could be affected a little too.

And I do see the difference betewen the Basic plot and actual events. But, IMO, basic plot isn't very imprtant for a story. Not a little bit.

[Kareeah Indaga]

Necromancers for one seem to want to attack wizards, not humans.

Which they wanted to do in the old universe, also. MMVII, anyone? The Necromancers and the Wizards hated each other. (And they still do, apparently, despite the “new” universe.)

In fact, alliance with humans, the most powerful faction in Ashan, would help theme in that.

Just as re-animating King Gryphonheart would have helped them. After all, if they had been able to use him to successfully taken over Erathia it would have been an ‘alliance’ of sorts with the most powerful country in Antagarich.

And nekromancers will use every mean necesary to take over wizards land. BTW, that doesn't look like H3, does it?

Honestly…just knowing the basic outline of RoE (everytime I get about half way through I have to reformat…maybe I’ll make another attempt this summer)…yes, it does.

[ThunderTitan]

Sure, basic plot isn't important at all.... that kinda explains why you don't see anything wrong, as long as enough words/details are different...

Whatever, I started this joking about how H5 "better" story has just reusing stuff from H3, and I ended up debating the finer points of storytelling with the Dark Lord of Mordor.

Let's leave it at agreeing to disagree.

@ Kareeah:

You could always cheat to get the story (that's what i did the first few times). Or upload ur save games on ur e-mail and send them to urself. Or have 2 partitions...

[Kareeah Indaga]

And I do see the difference betewen the Basic plot and actual events. But, IMO, basic plot isn't very imprtant for a story. Not a little bit.

Like the foundation isn’t important for the house.

Let's leave it at agreeing to disagree.

That would probably be best at least until we have the actual game to compare to. (Or at least a decent summary.)

[ThunderTitan]

The actual events won't change the similarities, just maybe make a good story.

Maybe that's what the Maker of the One Ring doesn't get. Those things annoy me, but if the story is good then whatever.