Chronology - Clash of the Dragons + AB Dragons Blood

[Cabal]

Hello,
Im not sure where to place those two campaigns in MM chronology. MM wiki says, that both happened between SoD and RoE, I would rather place them after AB and before Sword of Frost. King of Erathia is mentioned in Clash of the Dragons; is it Rion Gryphoheart or new king of Erathia (crowned after Catherine abdication, maybe ?)

Another question - who killed Mutare?

And the last one - MM wiki - Roland and Catherine are dead. Is there any official confirmation of this?

[Tress]

And the last one - MM wiki - Roland and Catherine are dead. Is there any official confirmation of this?

There is several references to that in homm4 bioses(like sephinroth) and mainly haven campaign, but thenically bodies were never found, so its up for imagination. But guess they are claimed to be dead so they can get insurance money and will.

[Corlagon]

We've had several debates on this with good points. I think there is more than enough evidence that Dragon's Blood and CotD occurred before Armageddon's Blade, but Avonu and Xel II will probably disagree with me. NWC never confirmed anything. So the most reliable answer I could give is "it's up to you".

There is no way the King from CotD is Rion Gryphonheart since he was dead about 1000 years before it occurred. You must mean Catherine's father, Nicolas Gryphonheart (Lich King Gryphonheart from H3). I think they are indeed the same character. However, some people think this "King" Tarnum mentions is Regent Kendal.

In H4, Sir Kentaine does directly state that Queen Catherine is dead and that there was no new Erathian ruler (Roland is not mentioned in H4 but he was with Catherine when last seen in MM8, and MM9 implies that he has indeed passed on).

Mutare's killer = unknown. (LotA states that Darkstorm did it)

[ThunderTitan]

You know, i think i preferred the misspelled name he had in H3... Darkstorn FTW.

[Marzhin]

(LotA states that Darkstorm did it)

Actually Darkstorm claims he did it - whether it's the truth or not is up to you :p

[Cabal]

Thanks to all,

Shame on me and Hideous mask on my silly head! for that Rion mistake - I meant Nicolas of course
Mutare case is now closed for me.

Is there any chance we will hear more about good (well, bad) old Archie (and Roland with Catherine too in Legends of the Ancients? Marzhin?

[XEL II]

Actually, Dragon's Blood campaign takes place at the same time with other AB campaigns. In Map 2 of Playing With Fire campaign there are Tavern rumors with referenses all other campaigns. Foolhardy Waywardness is referensed in past tense, while Dragon's Blood text is "Young female Nighon Overlord aspires to be queen".

So, Dragon's Blood isn't before AB. I think Clash of the Dragons starts during the final mission of the main AB campaign. There are several Kreegans allied with Mutare, who guard the Vial of Dragon Blood in mission 2 of CotD.

[Avonu]

We arleady discussed this.

[Corlagon]

I'm not going to argue about this again beyond stating that a tavern rumour created in 1999 isn't enough to completely and utterly counteract the King of Erathia mention, age of Waerjak, no sign of Gelu, presence of Kreegans, etc etc etc.

It's unlikely CotD could have started right after AB ended, because in MM8 Catherine says that *she* and her troops scoured Eeofol and found no Kreegan life before heading home, whereas in CotD there's no sign of her, a King is in charge instead, and the Kreegans are still wandering the land in droves.

Also note that the Gold Dragon Queen is killed in RoE yet in CotD there's no mention of this whatsoever.

[XEL II]

Oh, it's more than enough. And we don't know Waerjack's age, Gelu is mentioned in CotD and we have Adrienne, who had a relationship with Tarnum, so she must be older that fifteen. And before RoE he was in Eeofol studying Fire Magic.

King of Erathia mention appears to be a small mistake on Ray's behalf. It can be assumed that Tarnum confused Erathia' ruler to be actual King.

[Avonu]

And before RoE he was in Eeofol studying Fire Magic.

He? If you are talking about Adrianne then she was studing in Erathia IIRC.

And no, I also not going to argue this again. What was to say, was said already.

[Corlagon]

King of Erathia mention appears to be a small mistake on Ray's behalf. It can be assumed that Tarnum confused Erathia' ruler to be actual King.

No, that really cannot be assumed. If it can, I reserve every right to assume that the tavern rumour was a mistake that got retconned and we'll continue whining about the matter until doomsday and beyond without either of us being properly vindicated.

The only objective conclusion you should be posting, like I did, is that one game contradicts the other and it's up to whichever player to decide where CotD goes on the timeline.

[XEL II]

No, she was studying in Erathia later, before Playing with Fire campaign.

[Avonu]

No, she was studying in Erathia later, before Playing with Fire campaign.

OK, I found this fragment. Yes, you are right:

Studying to be a Witch, and one of the nation's heroes, Adrienne learned the sanctioned schools of earth, water, and air magic. When she inquired about fire, she was stifled and at times... punished. Then the devils fell from the sky.

Though they were enemies of the state, they could teach her fire magic. At fifteen years of age, Adrienne left Tatalia and went to Eeofol where she persuaded some of the clans to teach her what they knew. After two years of study, Adrienne learned fire magic. Adrienne also learned the consequence of elemental imbalance as seen in the hot barren lands of Eeofol. This imbalance was what her people feared... and practiced.

[Paviel]

Are we sure it's the same Adrienne?

And are we sure that the demons in CotD were Kreegans from Eeofol? Because if they were, then CotD had to take place after the Night of Shooting Stars. (There were no Kreegans in Eeofol prior to the Night of Shooting Stars.)

P.S: Here are a few random facts (and inferences) about Nighon that are probably relevant to the chronology of CotD and DB:

Fact: After the Restoration War, Nighon had a king. ("I am Tor Anwyn, leader of the Warlocks of Nighon, though not King of Nighon. That title belongs to another." (Tor Anwyn, Might and Magic VII)

Inference: Based on the above and the fact that Nighon was unified enough to invade Erathia during the Restoration War, it is likely that Nighon had a king during the Restoration War as well.

Fact: Mutare's death caused a power vacuum in Nighon that only Tarnum was able to fill. In other words, Nighon didn't have a king after Mutare's death. ("I've heard that after the death of their leader, the Dragon Queen Mutare, Nighon has fallen into chaos. Mutare's generals battle for control in an endless civil conflict." Tarnum, Scenario 1 of The Sword of Frost)

Fact: Tarnum was not the king of Nighon during or immediately after the Restoration War. (The events of Armageddon's Blade had already happened when Tarnum seized power in Nighon.)

In short, Nighon was unified enough during the Restoration War to invade Erathia. After Mutare's death, Nighon was not unified enough to invade any country. Therefore, the Restoration War could not have happened after Mutare's death.

[Corlagon]

Fact: Mutare's death caused a power vacuum in Nighon that only Tarnum was able to fill. In other words, Nighon didn't have a king after Mutare's death.

In short, Nighon was unified enough during the Restoration War to invade Erathia. After Mutare's death, Nighon was not unified enough to invade any country. Therefore, the Restoration War could not have happened after Mutare's death.

Respectively: whyever not, and whyever not?
Deyja, Eeofol and Erathia exchanged leaders several times (in Deyja's case four times, in Erathia's case twice) during the Restoration Wars - this lack of unification didn't stop them from invading everything in their vicinity. The question of unification is a poor indicator that Nighon didn't/couldn't have short-reigning kings. Even Enroth for instance wasn't unified at all under Archibald - enormous civil war - but he was still the king of Enroth in name.

Internecine warfare doesn't mean there's no king, and therefore I don't see why Nighon couldn't have briefly had kings before Tarnum took control - is it mentioned somewhere that it didn't?

Actually I'd yet again say it makes more sense again to place CotD starting in 1164, considering that the king of Nighon is never once mentioned in H3. If Mutare died/lost power at the start of 1165, there is nobody in power during H3 (except Finneas Vilmar who coordinates the triumvirate), and then one of her generals gets a chance to seize control by 1168, before being kicked off the throne by somebody else... and somebody else... until Tarnum arrives.

(Just to make a semi-relevant point, the king Tor Anwyn mentions was slated to appear in MM7 but was kicked onto the cutting room floor along with Castle Deadwood, according to the data files.)

[Paviel]

Deyja: King Gryphonheart's coup against King Vilmar didn't interfere with Deyja's military operations, except maybe for Mot's rebellion (which King Gryphonheart had to quell before invading Erathia). Deyja's military was largely unified under King Gryphonheart until the Necromancers decided to ally with Erathia against him, and the invasion fell apart as soon as they did; King Gryphonheart didn't even make it to Steadwick. Conclusion: When a country is unified, it gains territory, and when it isn't unified, it loses territory.

Eeofol: Ruled by Xenofex for the entire duration of the Restoration War, so it really isn't a good example; Xenofex was only killed by the Lords of Harmondale and replaced by Lucifer Kreegan afterward, and Lucifer Kreegan had even less difficulty unifying Eeofol than Gryphonheart had unifying Deyja.

Erathia: "Without King Gryphonheart, Erathia has lost its soul," which is why Tatalia, Krewlod, Nighon, Eeofol, and Deyja had such little difficulty taking over parts of Erathian territory. General Kendal couldn't do much until he was reinforced by Queen Catherine. Conclusion: When a country loses its soul, it loses its territory.

Deyja and Erathia demonstrate that when a country is not unified (or "loses its soul"), it is more likely to lose territory than to gain it. And if Nighon had ever been unified long enough to invade Erathia after Mutare's death, that fact should have been mentioned in "The Sword of Frost," and it certainly wouldn't have been an example of "endless civil conflict."

[GreatEmerald]

Mot

The barber?

[Corlagon]

And why should it have been mentioned in The Sword of Frost when it's irrelevant to The Sword of Frost's storyline? The Chronicles rarely ever mention anything external to their particular plot. Hell, if CotD is indeed after AB against all evidence to the contrary, the Kreegan genocides, death of the Gold Dragon Queen in Rionpoint and the wild continent-wide devastation of the Restoration Wars might've been worthy of acknowledgement somewhere.

Nighon doesn't lose territory as Erathia or Deyja might because it's an island nation and requires Catherine-strength frigates and plenty of support to invade, as demonstrated in RoE. There's a huge sand barrier (CotD) and no underground access before the Restoration Wars, which renders an attack difficult. Only with Sandro's tunnels did Catherine's offensive succeed. (By the way - note that there's no evidence of those tunnels having been dug yet in CotD.) Nighon wasn't even necessarily focusing on gaining territory at all. Their main motive given in Dungeons and Devils is: "No longer will we allow Erathia to hamper our religious and economic ways of life." That would suggest to me that Erathia has been getting in the way of their affairs and they simply want it gone. It would be a pretty logical response to Erathia's hand in thwarting Mutare's goals.

All that Sandro needed from Nighon was some military support ("To secure the Dungeon Overlords' support...") in his plot to overthrow Erathia, and indeed Nighon didn't necessarily exhaust its armies in the CotD war since Mutare's army was largely Dragons. It's not like the death of Mutare totally crippled the country or reduced it to anything worse than what we already saw in the Dragon's Blood campaign - insular war between various lords/generals, Machiavellianism and endless civil unrest.

[Paviel]

(By the way - note that there's no evidence of those tunnels having been dug yet in CotD.)

Actually, the tunnels in scenarios 3 and 6, and the fact that Mutare's forces invade through those tunnels, suggest that those tunnels had been dug yet.

Nighon doesn't lose territory as Erathia or Deyja might because it's an island nation and requires Catherine-strength frigates and plenty of support to invade, as demonstrated in RoE.

I'm not talking about Nighon losing territory; I'm talking about Nighon gaining territory. Nighon gained more territory than Deyja did in the Restoration War (After all, Nighon succeeded in taking over Steadwick, and Deyja didn't), and they couldn't have done so unless they were better organized and/or had a stronger army than Deyja did.

And a country can't be very well organized or have a very strong army if it's in the middle of an endless civil conflict. Deyja started losing ground to Erathia when its leaders started fighting among themselves, and so would Nighon.