What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

No it is not a factual statement, when it's coming from a madman.

That Nicolai is mad is not a factual statement, but a spurious interpretation. Unless you can find actual references that refer to Nicolai's madness, it is not legitimate to ignore what he says about Enroth in such a fashion.

Especially when we have no other sources to refer to what was going on Enroth before the Reckoning.

Yes, we do and XEL II and I have probably posted it ten times at this stage, but here we go again. The Kreegans left Enroth for the Fiery Realm. Gauldoth took the Kreegans to Axeoth with him when he invaded the Fiery Realm. Thus Escaton and Gauldoth are both correct and we don't have to come up with nonsense like "all the Kreegans faked their deaths". It's a way better explanation than saying MM8 is wrong.

The Kreegans were already in Axeoth long before Gauldoth opened up the portal to the Fiery Realm. There is no source in Heroes IV that says otherwise and plenty that say so.

That is not only obvious from the games, but also is referenced by the fact that *before* the portal is opened, a Demon gives an Angel's Blade to Gauldoth, as part of this quest.

(I had to march Gauldoth all the way back from inside the Fiery Realm to get your the above picture since the demon also apparently gives it to the Paladin as well and I got an Angel Blade off him instead)


The second statement is quite clear, many thought that the Kreegans had perished in the Reckoning. Might and Magic VIII is not the Reckoning, it is *before* the Reckoning.

There is no way that even I could read *in the Reckoning* as *before the reckoning* Corlagon. They were present in Enroth-world before the Reckoning happened, that is a canonical fact. If you still need more evidence, read this source from the Points of Power Mission (the one directly after the Fiery Realm).


There is no evidence whatsoever of any demonic invasion through the portals to the Fiery Realm. Any event that major would be noticed, especially as it happened right inside Nekross, which directly concerns Gauldoth and Kalibarr.

What happens if a rebellion of the demons, a rebellion of the existing demons already living in Axeoth. We know therefore that when Gauldoth speaks of some of the Kreegans fleeing into the Fiery Realm and when he reffers to them being disorganized and weak; with their numbers reduced he is reffering to two different groups of Kreegans. The latter group is those who fled with the other refugees into Axeoth.

That group lived on under the boot-heel of the necromancers, rebelling as becomes clear because they sensed that Kalibarr is weak thus the time to overthrow them.

When did Gauldoth specify they fled Enroth when the Reckoning happened, through portals? Nowhere. He simply doesn't. We don't know when/how they left the planet.
So your statement is incorrect on two counts. See the subtlety? You're reading into a source, mixing in your own conclusions and reporting them as fact. That's the difference between canon and fanfiction.

Yes we do not know precisely *how*, but I used basic logic to determine that any large percentage of the entire population of Kreegans cannot leave the planet in such a short time by direct magical means, when the use of such means to transport 1 person nearly killed Kalibarr (and since the majority of Kreegans are not powerful spell-casters) they must have some sort of portals in existence within easy reach to leave through.

But we know exactly *when* they fled to the Fiery Realm, at the Reckoning. We have no strictly canonical sources to state HOW they tricked the people of Might and Magic VIII, but it is evidently canonical that they were wrong and thus were tricked.

But logically, if a large portion of the Kreegan population can be evacuated into the Fiery Realm at a moment's notice, then with a lot more time and organization, the whole Kreegan population could be evacuated. They did this to escape Escaton, which deliberately or undeliberately tricked him.

And having created the magical means of escape, they could then use it again to escape to the Fiery Realm at the Reckoning.

Well maybe that's because I've administrated the MM wiki for over a year in my free time and deal with nothing but sources and references wink. But I disagree. All sources are totally credible. It's the interpretations and conclusions which stem from them that I can't help but challenge.

Except that's not the way have have been acting in relation to yourself.

You have thus far dismissed several sources from Heroes IV, a source from Might and Magic IX and at the same time promoting an utterly fan-fiction (by your own definition) Kreegan invasion from the Fiery Realm, which has not a shred of canonical evidence to back it up and doesn't even fill up any legitimate gaps, since if it had happened we *would* definitely know about it from canonical sources.

There is no canonical Kreegan invasion from the Fiery Realm, it is canonical some of the Kreegans went there but they never came back (in Heroes IV timeline anyway). Those Kreegans that didn't go there and traveled through the portals to Axeoth like everyone else, continued to have an influence on the story.

While can probably conclude that such an invasion was being planned in the future,(they aren't giving away Angel Blade's for nothing) or that a small number of Kreegans secretly sneaked through, but that is the furthest we can legitimately go without engaging in not merely fanfiction, but actual falsification. To conclude with my definitions of canon, theory, fan-fiction and falsification.

Canon (what I am not writing)
A direct reference from a story. There is however no requirement that a canonical statement be correct if it contradicted by another canonical reference, because a character in a story can be canonically wrong (mistaken or deceived). They are also subject to interpretation as to their actual direct meaning and to what actually constitutes canon.

Theory (what I am writing)
This is a wider understanding of a story derived from an interpretation of the canonical sources, which attempts to harmonize and bring together all the various references. Theories are important for the purpose of resolving contradictions between canonical sources, by determining why and how the sources are mistaken within the context of the story. It is impossible for a story to be coherent without theorizing and function on the basis of source-interpretation alone if it has contradictory sources, unless it is specifically claimed in the story that a source is mistaken. Any theory is however an interpretation of the meaning of several canonical sources taken together.

Fan-Fiction (what I am not writing)
This is an addition story created in order to expand an existing story, usually by fans of the story, but without them having the authority to write a sequel. To be Fan-Fiction rather than theory, it is necessary to invent sources to fill in gaps within the storyline, what happened in places and times uncovered by the story for instance. A theory does not however become fan-fiction however extensive it becomes, as long as it's foundation is the canonical sources or information previously derived from canonical sources about the story.

If I were to for instance to write a whole time-line or campaign concerning what goes on after Heroes IV (as I intend to do), that would be fan-fiction. However explaining the external origin of events within the story is not fan-fiction but theory as long as the explanations are other canonical events.

If you were say to explain the origin of an invading group of creatures in relation to a land already canonically referenced that is theory. However if one invents a new land not referenced to explain their origin, that is fan-fiction.

Falsification (what I am hopefully not writing)
Falsification is knowingly or unknowingly writing fan-fiction or theory that is illegitimate because it directly states contrary to canonical sources. If the canonical sources claim that Gauldoth rescued Kalibarr from the Fiery Realm, to write that Emilia Nighthaven rescued Kalibarr instead is Falsification (but to claim that before Gauldoth Emilia tried to rescue Kalibarr but failed, but Gauldoth succeeded later is fan-fiction).

Also to claim that events too great to avoid notice occurred at canonically referenced times and places, is also Falsification, unless those events happened in such a way as they could conceivably avoid notice by the referenced sources, in which case they are either theory or fan-fiction depending upon their basis.

For instance to claim that a small group of Kreegans sneaked through the portal created by Gauldoth to rescue Kalibarr is not Fan-Fiction, but to claim that there was a full Kreegan invasion during the Heroes IV death campaign era is Falsification because such an event could not conceivably have avoided notice by the authorities in Nekross.

[Zenofex]

The Kreegans were already in Axeoth long before Gauldoth opened up the portal to the Fiery Realm. There is no source in Heroes IV that says otherwise and plenty that say so.

Show us this "plenty" please. Something which actually says that the Kreegans arrived to Axeoth en masse from Enroth/Antagarich/Jedame and not your so-called "logical" conclusions.

The second statement is quite clear, many thought that the Kreegans had perished in the Reckoning. Might and Magic VIII is not the Reckoning, it is *before* the Reckoning.

There could have been insignificant amount of Kreegans who escaped through the portals to Axeoth, but nothing presenting "a force" or "a threat". See one of your own arguments below and be honest enough to use it not only where it fits your theorycrafting - no major power knows anything about any Kreegans left after the war of the Armageddon's Blade. If any Kreegan survived the Reckoning by crossing through the portals to Axeoth, he was either on his own or part of an insignificant group.

There is no evidence whatsoever of any demonic invasion through the portals to the Fiery Realm. Any event that major would be noticed, especially as it happened right inside Nekross, which directly concerns Gauldoth and Kalibarr.

What "invasion" are you talking about? The vast majory of Kreegans on Axeoth arrived there with Gauldoth. Gauldoth himself incorporporates them in his army and they settle in Necross after they arrive from the "fiery realm", there are no Kreegans to speak of among the undead until then. Have you played the whole campaign at all or you are again inventing stuff out of thin air?

Yes we do not know precisely *how*, but I used basic logic to determine that any large percentage of the entire population of Kreegans cannot leave the planet in such a short time by direct magical means, when the use of such means to transport 1 person nearly killed Kalibarr (and since the majority of Kreegans are not powerful spell-casters) they must have some sort of portals in existence within easy reach to leave through.

Your logic betrays you then. Kalibarr is nearly dead when Gauldoth finds him in the "fiery realm". Even if he was to be transported in a simple cart, he could have died. Also there is no way for you to know how these portals operate and for whose physical structure they are designed. Not to mention that you have no reason to believe that they are magical any more than to believe that they are technological. The portals between Enroth and Axeoth are designed by the Ancients (read - advanced technology), so it's not that difficult to imagine that the portal to the "fiery realm" is another part of the Web of the Worlds communication technology, which the Kreegans have taken for themselves. And the Angel Blade could as well be some variation of a control cube.

[Macros the Black]

I'm not questioning your logic, Slayer. Or anyone else for that matter. I think you make a good case, actually. But one thing I must ask is if they really intended the story to be that the Kreegans had returned to Enroth just before the Reckoning, why didn't they make it more clear that that's what had happened?

The Oracle in Might and Magic 6 or even Escaton could have mentioned that the Kreegans were unstoppable, that if defeated they would just return in greater number. Instead, the Oracle is optimistic. He says something along the lines of "if we survive the coming conflict, maybe people will wisen up and listen to me so we can restore this world back to the age of wonders again."

And Escaton, I know he's wired to proceed with the destruction of Enroth even if no Kreegans remain, but that could just be because he's a robot, he's given a task and thus performs it. If he was intentionally not allowed to stop in the destruction of Enroth, then why wouldn't he have known the Kreegans could return and/or trick him into thinking they were gone? It would have been useful knowledge for him. Because as it stands, apparently his program telling him to proceed with his task is not a full failsafe: he is still allowed to help others in undoing what he is doing. If he'd have known this information, he would not have helped out the Might and Magic 8 party.

But aside from that, even a simple appareance of a demon in the Heroes IV intro video, perhaps escaping through a portal, would have been enough to inform us that the Kreegans apparently hadn't been totally defeated.

As it stands, you can take the story in many direction depending on your interpretation. For instance, this quote:

Many thought the Kreegans had perished in the Reckoning, but [...] some retreated to the safety of another realm.

Can be explained in two ways:

1. The Kreegans were there during the Reckoning, and escaped it.
2. The Kreegans had already fled before the Reckoning, so that they couldn't have perished during the Reckoning. Note that while he says MANY THOUGHT they had perished IN the Reckoning, he doesn't say the retreated to the safety of another realm IN the Reckoning.

So... yeah. Either explanation seems to work.

I will say about Nicolai though, he is definately NOT completely sane. If you play Might and Magic 6 you'll know he escapes to join a circus as a sidequest and you have to get him back. The point is that Nicolai in Might and Magic 9 is confusing his current state with his childhood. That's why he wants to join the circus. He's also just standing there in the city telling people he's they're king. How long has he been there before you arrive? Days? Weeks? Months? The Reckoning can't have happened JUST before you arrived. Any sane man would have known he was at least in some other country, unless he had just arrived there. There's also a woman nearby who will tell you Nicolai is crazy, and while that can be written off as her not understanding what had happened to him, it is also a quite clear message from the makers of Might and Magic 9 that "hey, whatever he tells you take it with a grain of salt". So while what he's saying about the Kreegans MAY be true or otherwise indicate something else, you can't claim it to be a fact.

PS: sorry I'm not providing quotes, I just wanted to sum up my thoughts shortly.

[XEL II]

Actually, there as the Kreegan invasion of Axeoth in the distant past. Angel's Blade and Ebora are apparently remnants of this invasion.

[Corlagon]

A side note, Slayer: you don't need to take screenshots from the game itself to dig up quotes. Resedit 2 can extract the dialogs from the maps. This might save you some time, to say the least. The way you are doing it must take ages.

Theory (what I am writing)

I don't know why you didn't say this two weeks ago. I bet the posters of this forum would've taken you far more seriously if you wrote in a hypothetical manner rather than a matter-of-fact one. Almost everything you wrote until now has been offered as though you think you are correct, i.e.

"None of the Inferno creatures are Hive-Kreegans, the Gate-Kreegans are invisible to the defenses the Ancients placed on their planets"

etc etc. That does not read like theory, it reads like fact. But I tried to explain this before, so whatever.

You have thus far dismissed several sources from Heroes IV, a source from Might and Magic IX and at the same time promoting an utterly fan-fiction (by your own definition) Kreegan invasion from the Fiery Realm, which has not a shred of canonical evidence to back it up and doesn't even fill up any legitimate gaps, since if it had happened we *would* definitely know about it from canonical sources.

There is no canonical Kreegan invasion from the Fiery Realm, it is canonical some of the Kreegans went there but they never came back (in Heroes IV timeline anyway). Those Kreegans that didn't go there and traveled through the portals to Axeoth like everyone else, continued to have an influence on the story

???
You need to be more specific regarding what I've been "dismissing" since I've already explained to you about subtlety in the previous post; I dismissed what you said about the source, not the source itself. I don't know what you're talking about with an "utterly fan fiction invasion from the Fiery Realm", you are probably confusing yourself because this invasion is canonical. Look at the Half-Dead campaign. Map 2 is the first ever mention of the Kreegans in the H4 storyline and they are certainly not a major presence in the world at this point, let alone part of Gauldoth's army. From map 3 onwards, after Gauldoth has finished traipsing around their realm, they - including some Kreegans from Heroes III - have become a powerful force in Nekross: read "Months of tension between the Kreegans and undead..." They did not suddenly materialise out of nowhere. How is it fan fiction/falsification of any sort to take note of this?

Anyway, I won't get anywhere by quoting and picking at the rest of your post. Instead let's look at the established FACTS:

FACT: The Kreegans invaded Enroth en masse in 1162 A.S.
FACT: The Kreegans who invaded Enroth were no longer present on Enroth by 1172 A.S., no trickery involved.
FACT: Gauldoth notes that people think the Kreegans died in the Reckoning.
FACT: A small number of the Kreegans who invaded Enroth did survive, and reappeared on Axeoth in Heroes IV (Calh, Ash) and Mel Odom's novel The Sea of Mist (Nymus).

So as I said let's use Occam's Razor. What can we construe from this knowledge?

I (and other CH posters who I often actually disagree with) agree that
A) Escaton and the Ironfists were correct in MM8, the Kreegans of MM6-7/H3 left Enroth
B) The Kreegans of MM6/7/H3 fled to the safety of the Fiery Realm ca 1171-1172 AS
C) There was no second Kreegan invasion of Enroth
D) The Reckoning destroyed Castle Ironfist
E) There were no/very few Kreegans left on Axeoth during the events of H4's campaigns, except Half-Dead - though perhaps Ebora, the Tomb Demons up in Arslegard and the "demon warrior" holding onto the Angel's Blade are Kreegans. The Kreegans did battle with the Ancients above Axeoth in the past, as revealed in MM9 - maybe these few are the remnants of that attack.
F) Many Enrothians believed the Kreegans perished during the Reckoning, but - as Gauldoth implies - this is false
G) Between maps 2 and 3 of Half-Dead, Gauldoth was responsible for bringing the Kreegans of the Fiery Realm, some of whom were part of the MM6-7/H3 invasion force (Calh, Ash, Nymus), to Nekross (and, hence, Axeoth).

You, and as usual correct me if I'm wrong, apparently believe that
A) Escaton and the Ironfists were totally wrong in MM8, the Kreegans of MM6/7/H3 "faked their deaths" and were never really expunged from Enroth at all - contrary to canonical sources (MM8).
B) The misguided Enrothians Gauldoth mentioned were absolutely right and these invading Kreegans were around to see/perish in the the Reckoning: they fled to the safety of the Fiery Realm ca 1175 AS, contrary to canonical sources (MM8).
C) Before the Reckoning, these Kreegans felled Castle Ironfist with an Earthquake spell, Heroes III-style, and "cast Nicolai into Axeoth" - contrary to canonical sources (Tim Lang).
D) There were Kreegans from the Enrothian invasion present everywhere in Lodwar, (who were conspicuously never mentioned until the Half-Dead campaign) including the "demon warrior".
E) Gauldoth didn't take any Kreegans back with him to Axeoth after he was done with the Fiery Realm, and to state that he did is "knowingly or unknowingly writing fan-fiction or theory that is illegitimate because it directly states contrary to canonical sources".

Hmm.

[Zenofex]

Actually, there as the Kreegan invasion of Axeoth in the distant past. Angel's Blade and Ebora are apparently remnants of this invasion.

I doubt there were "invasions" so to speak. With the Kreegans' breeding capabilities and intolerance towards the natives, the planet should have been overrun. Or if there were and they finished like the invasion on Enroth, the remnants of the Kreegans couldn't form the majority of Gauldoth's armies because if they were that numerous in the first place, they would have tried to conquer the planet long ago.
Ebora and Angel's Blade coould have been brought to Axeoth from anywhere, including the "fiery realm", but I admit that I have to replay the HoMM IV campaign to verify this as my memories regarding it aren't completely reliable.

[XEL II]

The invasion is mentioned in MM9:

[GreatEmerald]

I'd say that the lone demons there are the true demons, not Kreegan. XEL, the screenshot looks interesting, but it's a little too small for me to read :\

[XEL II]

Demons of Korresan and Tomb of Thousand Terrors are local demons. Angel's Blade's guardian is certainly Kreegan.

[Talin_Trollbane]

The invasion is mentioned in MM9:

XEL, you may need to enlarge that, can barely read it.

[tolich]

Download it and then stretch.
Some letters may be unreadable, but the sense of whole document isn't lost.

[Pol]

[q="XEL II/MM9"]ON VISITORS FROM SPACE
HAVE READ FROM MANY CREDIBLE SOURCES THAT WE HAVE BEEN VISITED IN THE PAST BY MONSTERS FROM THE STARS WHO ARRIVED IN A FLYING BOAT MADE OF METAL. IN MANY OF THE CASES THEY HANDED STRANGE DEVICES TO PEOPLE WHO WOULD EVENTUALLY LEAD ARMIES AND BECOME RULERS OF NATIONS. I WOULDN'T PRESUME TO IMPLY THAT STRANGE CREATURES HAVE EVEN VISITED ANYONE IN THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE URSANIAN EMPIRE, BUT I'VE HEARD THAT RULERS OF OTHER NATIONS HAVE COME TO POWER IN SUCH A WAY.
ONE CREDIBLE OBSERVER EXPLAINED THAT HE SAW THE STRANGE CREATURES ARRIVE AT A PLACE HE SAID WAS SEVERAL HUNDRED LEAGUES SOUTH OF VERNOFFIN'S SUPPOSED SOVEREIGN TOWER. WHILE THEY WERE THERE, THEY CONSTRUCTED AND ENORMOUS BUILDING WITH A GIANT STICK THAT POINTED TO THE SKY. HE OVERHEARD THEM, TELL THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF THAT PROVINCE, THAT WHEN THE TIME COME TO LOOK TO THE SKY, HE WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.
WHETHER ANY OF THESE CLAIMS ARE TRUE HAS NOT BEEN INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIED. I HOWEVER AM ONE WHO TAKES THEIR CLAIMS TO HEART. WHILE AT A HISTORICAL SITE IN THE BILDONIAN PROVINCE, I SAW CAVE PAINTINGS OF MEN FIGHTING DEMONS IN THE SKY.
WHY THEY WERE, OR WHY THEY WERE FIGHTING HAS BEEN LOST TO TIME, BUT I DOUBT THE PRIMITIVES WHO CREATED THOSE PAINTINGS COULD HARDLY BE SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO HAVE COME UP WITH THOSE IDEAS ON THEIR OWN.
[/q]

[GreatEmerald]

Well, we don't know what kind of visitors they were.

[Zenofex]

These "visitors" are most likely the Ancients themselves - installing local "governments", constructing something that looks like SAM weapon (I think this has already been mentioned before in this thread once) and fighting "demons in the sky", which could be exactly before the Silence when the Kreegans launched their first major assault on the Web. In any case, we have no reasons to believe that they managed to land in large numbers on Axeoth or at least that they managed to achieve more than that. They were clearly repelled. And of course there is a possibility the cave pictures to be a legacy from some unwilling colonists, transported to Axeoth from another planet when the latter was invaded by the Kreegans and threatened to be overrun. But this is getting too speculative.
Whatever the case is, there is no evidence of considerable Kreegan presence on Axeoth before Gauldoth's expedition to the fiery realm. The few Kreegans encountered prior to that could have arrived from anywhere.

[Corlagon]

I believe at least a fair number of the Kreegans did land on Axeoth, but it seems the ones that weren't obliterated by the Ancients were later killed off by the colonists, leaving very few survivors until all the Gauldoth business. I think there is a mention or two in MM9 of otherworldly demons fighting legendary heroes and getting brutally slain, like the bit about Broderick and Nodens from some artifact description. Baron Von Tarkin had also destroyed an entire faction of what-could-be-Kreegans in his nation of Korresan, led by a Devil named Maximillian Devlos, centuries prior to his campaign.

[XEL II]

These visitors can't be Ancients, since they are described as monsters on the metal boat. Ancients are mentioned in this text as men fighting demons in the sky.

Korresan's demons appear to be local demon, not Kreegan.

[Corlagon]

Yeah, but who knows about the Korresan Demons. There's no evidence one way or the other. If you believe LotA is canon, they are Kreegans
I bet those monsters are Ancients. "Handed strange devices to people who would lead armies and become rulers of nations": this part reminds me of what Amonwelle said in The Dreamwright about the Ancients handing strange artifacts to the Guardians who ruled the world. It's also similar to Shifters, where Einar handed King Abelard's family the Harp of Bylandria generations ago.

[GreatEmerald]

These visitors can't be Ancients, since they are described as monsters on the metal boat.

Then again, in MM6 they came in an asteroid-like ship, so if it was the same, people would say "flying rock boat". And we know that things like VARNs do contain monsters (MM1/2, 4/5).

[Macros the Black]

And in MM6 some NPCs mention that their ancestors arrived on Enroth in a ship, and say something like that it must have been a huge ocean because it took them centuries to make the journey. Obviously this refers to VARN 4. They call it a ship or a boat because it's a space"ship" but since they don't understand what that is they just think it's a regular ship.
It also explains why they call the continent "Enroth" while those associated with the Ancients - The Oracle and Escaton -, call the world Enroth. The story must have been that they arrived on Enroth in a ship, and the people think it must mean they arrived on the continent Enroth with a huge boat but it means they arrived on the world with a spaceship.

IIRC the girl you rescue in the Silverhelm Outpost in Mist who alerts you to a nearby secret wall has this rumor.

[Avonu]

And in MM6 some NPCs mention that their ancestors arrived on Enroth in a ship, and say something like that it must have been a huge ocean because it took them centuries to make the journey. Obviously this refers to VARN 4.

VARN MCMIV

IIRC the girl you rescue in the Silverhelm Stronghold in Silver Cove who alerts you to a nearby secret wall has this rumor.