What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Corlagon
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Unread postby Corlagon » 06 Oct 2010, 15:40

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:He's not crazy, beginning of argument.
Just for kicks, then.

According to MM9
- Nicolai is aware of "Devil problems"
- Nicolai and his general have been discussing the Devils
- Nicolai *presumes* (but isn't sure) the Devils may have had something to do with the fall of Castle Ironfist
- Nicolai isn't totally sure where he is, but calls himself "your King"

What do I interpret from this?
- Nicolai may be partially incorrect
- The Devils in question may be Kreegans
- Nicolai has practically no awareness of the Reckoning
- Nicolai presumes the Devils destroyed Ironfist when it was most likely the Reckoning

What do you seem to interpret from it?
- Nicolai's words should be taken at face value and everything he says is entirely objective and true
- The Devils in question are Kreegans, and therefore there were absolutely certainly Kreegans on Enroth right before the Reckoning (no doubt about it), and therefore either MM8 was wrong or the Kreegans re-invaded Enroth, and therefore Gauldoth is wrong in H4 when he states the Kreegans weren't on Enroth before the Reckoning
- Nicolai is calling himself King and therefore was crowned in Enroth, and therefore Roland died in H3, and therefore MM8 did not happen
- Nicolai isn't talking about the Reckoning, but a violent earthquake summoned by the Kreegans, and therefore it wasn't the Reckoning, and therefore Tim Lang (MM9 director) is wrong

I disagree with your assumptions because
- they contradict H4
- they contradict MM8
- they contradict MM9's director
- there is absolutely no evidence anywhere of a second Kreegan attack on Enroth, unless you believe that what confused Nicolai *presumed* is the truth
- you've already been so terribly incorrect about many issues throughout the thread
- you've demonstrated confusion regarding the series lore
- you admitted yourself that you haven't played many of the games
- etc, etc, etc, etc

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 16:12

If that doesn't finish the discussion, I don't know what will.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Oct 2010, 16:24

Corlagon wrote: What do you seem to interpret from it?
- Nicolai's words should be taken at face value and everything he says is entirely objective and true
- The Devils in question are Kreegans, and therefore there were absolutely certainly Kreegans on Enroth right before the Reckoning (no doubt about it), and therefore either MM8 was wrong or the Kreegans re-invaded Enroth, and therefore Gauldoth is wrong in H4 when he states the Kreegans weren't on Enroth before the Reckoning
- Nicolai is calling himself King and therefore was crowned in Enroth, and therefore Roland died in H3, and therefore MM8 did not happen
- Nicolai isn't talking about the Reckoning, but a violent earthquake summoned by the Kreegans, and therefore it wasn't the Reckoning, and therefore Tim Lang (MM9 director) is wrong
1.
I already admit that Nicolai is wrong about the source of the earthquake (but I originally claimed that he could be right). I admit that he is partly wrong, you on the other hand dismiss everything he says as the result of madness.

You tear up canonical sources utterly and throw them away without any consideration based upon claims with no canonical basis, which is that Nicolai is actually completely mad and then claim that I am indulging in pure conjecture.

2.
Nicolai actually says that the devils in question are Kreegans.

Gauldoth says nothing whatsoever about there not being any Kreegans on Enroth before the Reckoning. He says that the common notion that the Kreegans were destroyed IN the Reckoning is false, meaning that the Kreegans at least must have been ON Colony because nothing is said about them being destroyed BEFORE the Reckoning.

He also says that some of the Kreegans fled to the Fiery Realm to avoid the Reckoning (it is evident that some of them also fled through the portals like everyone else to Axeoth), which means they must have had portals TO the fiery realm on Colony before the Reckoning.

3.
It only means that Nicolai and Catherine were believed dead by the people of Enroth by the time of the reckoning. This only means that they didn't get back to Enroth safely after Might and Magic VIII, not that Might and Magic VIII never happened.

4.
Nicolai believes that certainly. That doesn't make it true, but that he has settled for that explanation means the Kreegans were almost certainly invading Enroth before the Reckoning, especially when taken together with the quote about talking with his general about the Kreegan problem.

He is wrong about the Kreegans causing the earthquake and taking the capital, but we have no basis to doubt the following statements.

1. That the Kreegans were a problem in Enroth shortly before the Reckoning.
2. That Roland and Catherine never made it back to Enroth safely after Might and Magic VIII for whatever reason and are believed dead.
3. That the Kreegans actually weren't wiped out and simply managed to trick Escaton in some fashion (since we know already about the portals on Colony to the Fiery Realm, they likely have something to do with it).
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

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Unread postby Avonu » 06 Oct 2010, 16:29

Secret_Holder wrote:If that doesn't finish the discussion, I don't know what will.
I think I know somebody who can do that :D:

Image
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:1. That the Kreegans were a problem in Enroth shortly before the Reckoning.
2. That Roland and Catherine never made it back to Enroth safely after Might and Magic VIII for whatever reason and are believed dead.
3. That the Kreegans actually weren't wiped out and simply managed to trick Escaton in some fashion (since we know already about the portals on Colony to the Fiery Realm, they likely have something to do with it).
1. It's Enroth not Colony.
2.
Image
Image
Last edited by Avonu on 06 Oct 2010, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 16:30

I never really like anime, but that looks awesome :-D

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Oct 2010, 16:55

Yes I know that the claim is made in Might and Magic VIII that the Kreegans were destroyed.

But given we have definite evidence from Heroes IV that is not the case, what does the evidence signify except that the Kreegans tricked Queen Catherine and everyone else?

Which is interesting because we know from Heroes IV that some of the Kreegans fled through portals into the Fiery Realm when the Reckoning happened, meaning there must have been portals TO the Fiery Realm already set up on Colony.

The simplest explanation is simply that the Kreegans fled through those portals in order to fake their own extinction before returning just before the Reckoning to invade Enroth.

Which also incidentally explains why Escaton isn't allowed to stop the Convocation, the Ancients already knew the Kreegans are capable of escaping into the Fiery Realm, thus their apparent "disappearance" is not to be trusted.

PS- Enroth is a continent and people use the word Colony to signify the world, so as to distinguish between it and Enroth.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Unread postby Nelgirith » 06 Oct 2010, 17:06

You're really pathetic ... there's no other word ... really.

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Unread postby Avonu » 06 Oct 2010, 17:08

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:PS- Enroth is a continent and people use the word Colony to signify the world, so as to distinguish between it and Enroth.
MM8 wrote:The world of Enroth has fallen out of balance with the rest of the cosmos. As a result, the gateways to the elemental planes have been opened on your world, freeing the forces of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water to wreak havoc throughout the land.
You must form a party of up to five heroes to unite the human and monster races of the world in time to launch a joint campaign to close the gateways and save Enroth from planetary extinction.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 17:32

Which also incidentally explains why Escaton isn't allowed to stop the Convocation, the Ancients already knew the Kreegans are capable of escaping into the Fiery Realm, thus their apparent "disappearance" is not to be trusted.
No. Escaton is a robot. Once he's programmed to destroy a world he can't stop.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 06 Oct 2010, 17:42

Secret_Holder wrote:If that doesn't finish the discussion, I don't know what will.
I fear that it will only be this: Image

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Unread postby Corlagon » 06 Oct 2010, 17:48

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:You tear up canonical sources utterly and throw them away without any consideration based upon claims with no canonical basis
That's a rather indulgent thing to say. All I've been trying to do since the thread began is point out the canonical sources to you, each time you've been wrong or mistaken. Where and when have I ever torn any of them up?
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:the Kreegans tricked Queen Catherine and everyone else?
No they didn't
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:we know from Heroes IV that some of the Kreegans fled through portals into the Fiery Realm when the Reckoning happened
No we don't
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:the Kreegans fled through those portals in order to fake their own extinction before returning just before the Reckoning to invade Enroth
No they didn't
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Enroth is a continent and people use the word Colony to signify the world, so as to distinguish between it and Enroth.
No they don't

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 18:33

the Kreegans fled through those portals in order to fake their own extinction before returning just before the Reckoning to invade Enroth
Really? Are you seriously taking that route?
Wouldn't it be much easier just to take what Corlagon's saying at face value? There really isn't anyone around here, that knows more about Might and Magic lore than him.
It would be much easier than to make up conspiracy theories everywhere you go.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 06 Oct 2010, 18:59

You really flatter me, but I'm afraid I have to advise you to take that back or Avonu and XEL II will probably be out for your blood :lol:
Besides I'm just another fan, not JVC; I think it is totally right to question anything I say. The trouble starts when someone refuses even to take quotes from the games themselves at face value.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 19:07

The die is cast.

No seriously, I'm sorry for my mistake. Credit should of course go where credit is due.

But I'll leave you three to battle it out, who's number one ;)

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Oct 2010, 21:02

Corlagon wrote: That's a rather indulgent thing to say. All I've been trying to do since the thread began is point out the canonical sources to you, each time you've been wrong or mistaken. Where and when have I ever torn any of them up?
Easy, you are doing it right now. Your entire system is based upon shredding some sources so you can take others at face value.

Yes you have been informing you of canonical sources and my theories have developed a lot as a result. I thank you for that.

Corlagon wrote: No they didn't
Have you a better explanation for how everyone ended up believing the Kreegans were gone in Might and Magic VIII and yet they are back in Heroes IV?
Corlagon wrote:No we don't
This time I will assume that you actually don't know.

Image

Now tell me you don't tear up canonical sources Corlagon.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No they didn't
Yes, it doesn't actually say that, but that is the simplest explanation for how they managed to fake their own extinction in Might and Magic VIII.

Do you have a better explanation?

[quote=""Corlagon""]
No they don't[/quote]

Well I wasn't the first person to use the term "Colony" in relation to Enroth, others here used it first and I just copied them when I found out what it meant.



[quote=""Corlagon""]
Really? Are you seriously taking that route?
Wouldn't it be much easier just to take what Corlagon's saying at face value? There really isn't anyone around here, that knows more about Might and Magic lore than him.
It would be much easier than to make up conspiracy theories everywhere you go.[/quote]

Corlagon has told me a lot and I have learned a lot from him about Might and Magic.

However all he knows how to do is decide which sources are utterly right and which one's are utterly wrong.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 21:29

Corlagon has told me a lot and I have learned a lot from him about Might and Magic.

However all he knows how to do is decide which sources are utterly right and which one's are utterly wrong.
But you're inventing things, taking them out of thin air, when you say, that it is a fact, that the Kreegans hid from the Erathian forces, so they would think the Kreeagans were gone. That is not factual.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 06 Oct 2010, 21:44

Secret_Holder wrote: But you're inventing things, taking them out of thin air, when you say, that it is a fact, that the Kreegans hid from the Erathian forces, so they would think the Kreeagans were gone. That is not factual.
It is factual, because in Might and Magic VIII as Avonu has posted a few posts the main characters, both Catherine and Escaton believe that the Kreegans are destroyed.

We know from Heroes IV, which is in the future that the Kreegans survived.

Thus it is a factual statement that the Kreegans tricked the people of Enroth-World in some manner.

It is also a factual statement unless you want to pull stuff out of thin air about Nicolai being mad, that the Kreegans were a threat to Enroth-Continent shortly before the Reckoning.

The only speculation going on here is where I say the Kreegans fled through portals into the Fiery Realm at Might and Magic VIII time, the same portals they would flee through at the Reckoning. That is my theory as to how the Kreegans hid themselves.

It is a factual statement that those portals to the Fiery Realm existed. We can deduce the Kreegans can't have had enough time at the Reckoning to create the portals.

If they had created them when they detected Escaton in order to escape from him, that would also explain why they were able to escape at the Reckoning using them.

Or we could to be boring and just say nobody knows how the Kreegans tricked everyone.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 06 Oct 2010, 22:53

It is also a factual statement unless you want to pull stuff out of thin air about Nicolai being mad, that the Kreegans were a threat to Enroth-Continent shortly before the Reckoning.
No it is not a factual statement, when it's coming from a madman.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 06 Oct 2010, 22:53

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Have you a better explanation for how everyone ended up believing the Kreegans were gone in Might and Magic VIII and yet they are back in Heroes IV?
Yes, we do and XEL II and I have probably posted it ten times at this stage, but here we go again. The Kreegans left Enroth for the Fiery Realm. Gauldoth took the Kreegans to Axeoth with him when he invaded the Fiery Realm. Thus Escaton and Gauldoth are both correct and we don't have to come up with nonsense like "all the Kreegans faked their deaths". It's a way better explanation than saying MM8 is wrong.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Now tell me you don't tear up canonical sources Corlagon.
I will indeed tell you as such. Don't jump to conclusions, I'm not attacking your source but your interpretation. ;) Instead, reread your own quote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:we know from Heroes IV that some of the Kreegans fled through portals into the Fiery Realm when the Reckoning happened
When did Gauldoth specify they fled Enroth when the Reckoning happened, through portals? Nowhere. He simply doesn't. We don't know when/how they left the planet.
So your statement is incorrect on two counts. See the subtlety? You're reading into a source, mixing in your own conclusions and reporting them as fact. That's the difference between canon and fanfiction.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Do you have a better explanation?
Sure, see above.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Well I wasn't the first person to use the term "Colony" in relation to Enroth, others here used it first and I just copied them when I found out what it meant.
I must admit that I used to use that term an awful lot too, before I joined Castle Gobs and learned it was invented by Ribannah, not Tim Lang himself. It fits, but I don't use it any more because it's not canon.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:However all he knows how to do is decide which sources are utterly right and which one's are utterly wrong.
Well maybe that's because I've administrated the MM wiki for over a year in my free time and deal with nothing but sources and references ;). But I disagree. All sources are totally credible. It's the interpretations and conclusions which stem from them that I can't help but challenge.

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Unread postby XEL II » 07 Oct 2010, 07:27

There were also some Kreegans on Axeoth before the portal to Fiery Realm, like Ebora (who is most likely Kreegan) and a Kreegan who was guarding the Angel's Blade.

Demons who guard Tomb of Thousand Terrors (who look much like demons from XEEN) and once ingabited Korresan appear to be local demons like those from MM 1-5
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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