3-5 rules and 6-8 graphic ?

[koval321]

Sometime i think that old mm have better rules, game system, and i wonder how game could look when connect them.

What was good in old rules? everything!

Team: 1-6 heroes. In fact need minimum 2 peoples to skills work, but its better when choose how large team you want. MM8 have similar but very broken

Tavern: Create new champions in any moment, and leave heroes, make different team for different dungeon

Profession: Much more to choose, and interesting like ninja

Skill level: Beside amount value you have name of level and known how really he is good

Interface: I like this monster which shown where are secret passage trough wall

Balance: Fighters can attack many times in one round and thier damage was effective, visible balance between magic and might, later parts are "magic and magic" because fighter without magic weapon is useless

Skills: Instead of give more skills, they limit them, i think all travell skills could still work somehow, for example faster travell between area or less consume food, also swimming could work as waterwalk

World: From desert to snow, from forest to swamp, mountains and sea, also volcano and clouds, medieval and future. World is still good, but could be all in one game like mm8 underwater, mm7 heaven, mm6 snow

Monster: In old system, especially mm2 monsters was more funny, and amount of them seem to be larger, most of them make no sense but i like it, its the same like with world, just many weird possibilities

Puzzle: I think old mms have much more puzzle everywhere

Monster nest: Monster respawn until you destroy thier nest

Item materials: New version have many great graphic, but old system give more amount and randomize generator, it was simple and it work, old system give more items

Magic well: They give much more and interesting bonus, now just refreshing

Spells: Probably old have more (anyway i think old system have everything more)

[GreatEmerald]

That's true. I also miss the randomness of chests and other things. In later MMs you see chest - you open it - you receive bacon, while in older MMs you see chest - you try to open it - you get jacked by lightning - you receive Reaper monster out of the chest. I miss Clairvoyance, too.

And not to mention an actually working hireling system.

[Macros the Black]

My opinion on this. Keep in mind that I'm not a big fan of the earlier MM games, and so I shouldn't have much say in the matter. But just for the purpose of evaluating game mechanics, I'll comment on your points.

Team: 1-6 heroes. In fact need minimum 2 peoples to skills work, but its better when choose how large team you want. MM8 have similar but very broken

Personally I prefer a team of 4 party members, because your choices actually matter then. When you only have to have one guy who can take some damage, one who can open chests, one healer and one damage dealer... Why have two more spots open? You would basically always have everything in your party, and that's not very fun imo because every playthrough will be very much the same since you don't have basic advantages and disadvantages per your choice of party members. It's true that with 4 party member possibilities, you could also always just have a knight, thief, cleric, sorcerer, but due to hybrid classes and the usefulness of the varying roles per your playstyle it definately makes sense to choose to go with a different party setup.

Edit: forgot to mention that I do agree you should be able to choose your party size at the start. Makes it easier and more streamlined for solo challenges and such.

Tavern: Create new champions in any moment, and leave heroes, make different team for different dungeon

Again, the same thing applies here. Many RPG games nowadays have this where each possible party member levels up with you even when they're not in your party and you can mix and match them for each dungeon. While this seems to give you some freedom and choice, it actually does the exact opposite in my experience. Namely, when you can choose different party members all the time you will naturally drift into a state of always having one of each role present in your party and thus always playing the same kind of party, and even if choosing a slightly different character to play each dungeon or encounter, you'll eventually feel like you've played the game with ALL of those characters that you could choose, leaving no different option for the next time you play through a game. For me, this is one the things which ruins the replayability of modern day party-based RPG's. I can play through them once, then I'm done. While MM6-8 give me so many options of different party combinations I haven't tried yet..

Profession: Much more to choose, and interesting like ninja

What was so interesting about the ninja? Wasn't he basically a hybrid barbarian/thief? I know the choice of taking a thief or a ninja was the one interesting thing about party makeup I had in those games because I sure as hell wasn't about to take two utility classes with me and I wasn't sure just how much I was going to miss out on by taking a ninja instead of a thief, and how much weaker the thief would be in combat. I eventually opted for a thief because having 6 party members I reckoned one more damage dealer wouldn't make much of a difference in the end.

Edit: or maybe you just meant the flavor of the ninja and that he can use class-specific items?

Interface: I like this monster which shown where are secret passage trough wall

That's just flavor, right? Because Perception does the same thing, it just looks a little stupid when the wall is colored red all of a sudden.. I thought it was a bug when I first played MM8 (I played MM6 first, then MM8, then MM7). So yeah the clairvoyance faces were more interesting indeed, but might be hard to implement in a game that's not square-based. How would you know what object in the near vicinity the faces are nodding about?

Balance: Fighters can attack many times in one round and thier damage was effective, visible balance between magic and might, later parts are "magic and magic" because fighter without magic weapon is useless

Well, elemental enchantments on weapons isn't nescesarily non-might imo. In fact it's a hallmark of might classes in basically any RPG that they inflict different types of damage, one of which is hardly ever resisted. I'm not sure I agree with the balance either. In World of Xeen, although I hardly played over half the game before I quit, I got the feeling that magic classes were even more powerful than in MM6. And while I certainly agree that MM6 is heavily magic favored, MM7 and 8 are quite balanced imo. In fact a party of all knights can be quite overpowered throughout the game whereas sorcerers only mid-late game. Let's not mention Dragons here...

Skills: Instead of give more skills, they limit them, i think all travell skills could still work somehow, for example faster travell between area or less consume food, also swimming could work as waterwalk

With current day engines, swimming could easily be implemented. I don't see a reason why any game made today would ever include water walk but not swimming. However, imo chain mail and plate armor should be taken off lest you wish to drown..

World: From desert to snow, from forest to swamp, mountains and sea, also volcano and clouds, medieval and future. World is still good, but could be all in one game like mm8 underwater, mm7 heaven, mm6 snow

It WAS all in one game. MM7 had all of what you mentioned, though underwater fighting would have been nice. As it is now it's only exploration basically.

Monster: In old system, especially mm2 monsters was more funny, and amount of them seem to be larger, most of them make no sense but i like it, its the same like with world, just many weird possibilities

Hmm.. this is one of the things I didn't really like about earlier MM games, the sense of humor and geeky star trek references kind of ruined the atmosphere imo. However, this is all still there in later MM games, just to a degree and in such a tone that you can ignore it if you wanted, and you might even say it kind of adds to the atmosphere because of how they implemented it. I guess a little rewording here and there and describing these out of place things in a way I could see an actual inhabitant of that world explain these things would he could come across them makes a big difference for me..

Puzzle: I think old mms have much more puzzle everywhere

There are still many puzzles in later MM games. I'm certainly not missing any. The puzzles are sort of a thing to take you out of combat every once in a while, and doing something else. Used correctly, they do it so that you aren't in combat so much that it starts to become boring/repetitive/shallow. Puzzles and other such things, like town visits, repairing, herb gathering, ore smelting, repairing, identifying, etc etc etc are all there because a game can't be just combat all the time. They keep it fresh. Imo the combat in the old games can get stale quicker than in MM6-8 and hence they had to build in more things to keep you busy in between.

Monster nest: Monster respawn until you destroy thier nest

While the whole "nest" thing is kinda weird, the mechanic is good. But this does lead to easy experience which may or may not be desireable.

Item materials: New version have many great graphic, but old system give more amount and randomize generator, it was simple and it work, old system give more items

Trying to remember right now... Correct me if I'm wrong but the old system was basically an x y system where you could have a type of material the item was made from (x) and a ranking of how well it was designed (y), whereas the new system only featured a better item all the time whether it was better designed or from a better material (usually both) (z). Personally I didn't much care for the x y system because it added little to the game and together with the fact that you couldn't see the statistics when buying it from shops made it simply bothersome and hard to compare. Seemingly it added customization, but in practice it just made things overly complicated.

Magic well: They give much more and interesting bonus, now just refreshing

Not really? Magic wells do alot of things in MM6 especially, from spawning monsters to teleporting you to healing/rejuvenating spell points to giving buffs to inflicting conditions.. How much more variety could there be?

Spells: Probably old have more (anyway i think old system have everything more)

Yes, but many of the old spells did the same thing. At the start you're throwing fire bolts, then later you're throwing lightning bolts.. yay more spells, but it's the same thing you're doing. Many spells even directly made other spells obsolete. So in the end you had far less choice than in MM6-8. To give you an example of how this is not the case there, the spell sparks at first seems simply another damaging spell. Until you realise that throughout the game, even when you get "better" spells (in truth just more options, but nothing that replaces it) sparks remains useful because it's the most spell point to damage ratio efficient spell in the game. Not to mention, the only one that can easily hit enemies directly beneath you. Thus, each spell has it's own use even later in the game and (almost) nothing directly replaces another spell.

[GreatEmerald]

Again, the same thing applies here. Many RPG games nowadays have this where each possible party member levels up with you even when they're not in your party and you can mix and match them for each dungeon. While this seems to give you some freedom and choice, it actually does the exact opposite in my experience. Namely, when you can choose different party members all the time you will naturally drift into a state of always having one of each role present in your party and thus always playing the same kind of party, and even if choosing a slightly different character to play each dungeon or encounter, you'll eventually feel like you've played the game with ALL of those characters that you could choose, leaving no different option for the next time you play through a game. For me, this is one the things which ruins the replayability of modern day party-based RPG's. I can play through them once, then I'm done. While MM6-8 give me so many options of different party combinations I haven't tried yet..

It's not like the other modern RPGs. It doesn't give experience for no reason, thus being fair. Also, hirelings are a good idea, like in MM3, you can hire someone if you're going into a really difficult dungeon - then you have a lot better chance of survival, although a drain on your money.

That's just flavor, right? Because Perception does the same thing, it just looks a little stupid when the wall is colored red all of a sudden.. I thought it was a bug when I first played MM8 (I played MM6 first, then MM8, then MM7). So yeah the clairvoyance faces were more interesting indeed, but might be hard to implement in a game that's not square-based. How would you know what object in the near vicinity the faces are nodding about?

That is what your mouse pointer is for

However, imo chain mail and plate armor should be taken off lest you wish to drown..

Incorrect, if you are strong and the plate armour is made of good steel, it's light enough to swim.

Hmm.. this is one of the things I didn't really like about earlier MM games, the sense of humor and geeky star trek references kind of ruined the atmosphere imo. However, this is all still there in later MM games, just to a degree and in such a tone that you can ignore it if you wanted, and you might even say it kind of adds to the atmosphere because of how they implemented it. I guess a little rewording here and there and describing these out of place things in a way I could see an actual inhabitant of that world explain these things would he could come across them makes a big difference for me..

I disagree. The difference isn't that big between the MM games in this regard, Xeen inhabitants would explain everything just as well.

There are still many puzzles in later MM games. I'm certainly not missing any. The puzzles are sort of a thing to take you out of combat every once in a while, and doing something else. Used correctly, they do it so that you aren't in combat so much that it starts to become boring/repetitive/shallow. Puzzles and other such things, like town visits, repairing, herb gathering, ore smelting, repairing, identifying, etc etc etc are all there because a game can't be just combat all the time. They keep it fresh. Imo the combat in the old games can get stale quicker than in MM6-8 and hence they to build in more things to keep you busy in between.

I don't feel busy enough without the puzzles. Besides, if going into a cavern in MM7/8, you are sure you won't find anything more interesting than enemies. MM6 is different, though.

Trying to remember right now... Correct me if I'm wrong but the old system was basically an x y system where you could have a type of material the item was made from (x) and a ranking of how well it was designed (y), whereas the new system only featured a better item all the time whether it was better designed or from a better material (usually both) (z). Personally I didn't much care for the x y system because it added little to the game and together with the fact that you couldn't see the statistics when buying it from shops made it simply bothersome and hard to compare. Seemingly it added customization, but in practice it just made things overly complicated.

Well, right now I have a Leather Spell Horn of Toxic Clouds and Crystal Marksman Plate Armour of Blessing in MM3. I find it hilarious TBH, but it's not a bad thing. These days, seeing what Borderlands does, it's easy to create random generated 3D items that would have all the effects, too. Leather: texture, Spell: particles, Horn: model, Toxic Cloud: particles. Of course, comparison is quite difficult, but the price is usually a good guide in this.

[Asmodis]

Team: 1-6 heroes. In fact need minimum 2 peoples to skills work, but its better when choose how large team you want. MM8 have similar but very broken

Depends on how different the individual characters/classes can be from each other. The early MM parts could have easily been done with 4 characters as well; the classes clearly follow the Fighter-Rogue-Cleric-Wizard outline and apart from a few spells for the nature-aligned classes, the hybrids only differ in stat development and equipment usage from their full-out counterparts. MM8 was a nice try to give the classes/races their own unique traits and masteries but ultimately failed because these traits were either made too weak compared to the FRCW counterparts (or too strong and bland in case of the dragons) or they were made redundant by giving them to other classes as well, just without the ability to GM them.

Tavern: Create new champions in any moment, and leave heroes, make different team for different dungeon

Actually, this worsens one of the major problems of the MM series: the blandness and unimportance of the party. Throughout the whole series, the party just serves as a motor for the story; they don't actively change it, they just accept quests from the people that do and slay monsters. The tavern/inn aspect of the old games just puts further emphasis on this by indirectly saying that the party is replaceable.
You can compare it to the image of someone reading a book. The party in the MM series is essentially the hand that flips the pages and all the killing and questing is basically reading it, with the main quests being the chapter markers. Since the party is only reading the book and flipping it's pages, it can easily be replaced by another one; the story is written down already and the change has no significant impact on it whatsoever.

Profession: Much more to choose, and interesting like ninja

Except that they don't have anything interesting about them since they're the same as other classes, just with different stats and equipment restrictions. And if I remember correctly, the "typical" ninja weapons like katanas and wakizashis were usable by other classes as well, so they didn't even have unique weapons.

Skill level: Beside amount value you have name of level and known how really he is good

I think you mean stats here, because the skill list in the old games was just that, a list of your skills, with no explanation on the skills and only one indicator next to Thievery, which didn't help that much unless you had a list of trap levels on chest handy. Anyway, the stat levels in the old games weren't that helpful either. Sure, it's nice to know that the strenght of my barbarian is on the ultimate level but how does that help me find out my damage on monsters without having to look up some formula somewhere else? Last I checked, the only indicator of damage in MM3-5 was the size of the blood/elemental spat (which, granted, was common in the early first-person rpgs), whereas in MM6-MM8 you not only had an actual stats for most damage types but also additional information available by right-clicking them. Sounds like a vast improvement to me, although most games closer to the D&D rules took a step further by letting you see rolls as well.

Interface: I like this monster which shown where are secret passage trough wall

This is more a design/engine issue than anything else. If you play the games and go into any dungeon you will notice one thing: All the walls in that dungeon look the same (unless there's a switch, door or something else there) and if you'd put any "secret" switches or otherwise notable exceptions into the wall pics most players would immediately notice the difference. Sure, you could make the other wall parts look individual as well but back then, when drawings and spriting were still the standard way of designing computer games, this meant a hell lot of work for little effect as well as valuable disk space, which was still rather scarce back then. So instead, walls are all the same and we get a skill/spell that warns us of secret walls by waving it's arm as a trade-off. I wouldn't necessarily say it's handled better than in MM6-8 though.

Balance: Fighters can attack many times in one round and thier damage was effective, visible balance between magic and might, later parts are "magic and magic" because fighter without magic weapon is useless

I think this is really a POV issue, I personally always thought that magic was considerably weak in MM7&8 compared to a well skilled Knight. But y'know, if you think one side is superior/inferior to the other you can always try a different party setup to balance it out.

Skills: Instead of give more skills, they limit them, i think all travell skills could still work somehow, for example faster travell between area or less consume food, also swimming could work as waterwalk

Actually, they increased the amount of skills you can get, not to mention upgradeable instead of "just being there". What they did limit though was the amount of useless or trivial skills that you use a few times during the game and never again, like Crusader or Linguist (except for Diplomacy in MM6).

When it comes to the travel skills, their main use (or rather the main use of the objects/tiles that you can't pass without the skills)was to limit the partys advancement into areas it shouldn't be in yet, somewhat outlining a route that has to be taken in order to advance in the game.
Sure, they could have converted the travel skills they way you propose it but then again that's already in the game in the form of the hirelings.

And swimming...well, I have no insights about the production of MM6-8 but I would assume that the engine just didn't allow it the way they wanted it to be and just scrapped it. I kinda had hopes about it, too, especially since it's hinted at in the intro of MM6. Then again, if it would have been similiar to the MM9 swimming parts, it's not a big loss in the end.

World: From desert to snow, from forest to swamp, mountains and sea, also volcano and clouds, medieval and future. World is still good, but could be all in one game like mm8 underwater, mm7 heaven, mm6 snow

Here's the thing: MM6-8 all play in the same world, just on different continents and in different countries/kingdoms, so all the landscapes you find in those three games (and those in HMM2&3 as well, if you're nitpicky)should be combined into one greater picture if you want to compare them to the worlds displayed in MM3-5.

Monster: In old system, especially mm2 monsters was more funny, and amount of them seem to be larger, most of them make no sense but i like it, its the same like with world, just many weird possibilities

The amount of monsters in mm2 was just ridiculous at times though, a six-man party defeating hundreds of thousands of monsters over a course of a few years just doesn't sound believeable, even in a fantasy/ancient technology setting.
Also, this is yet another example of how the engine and overall game design limits the possibilities. I still have no insights about how production went down in the NWC offices, but I would assume that designing 2-dimensional animated sprites takes up a lot less time and ressources than doing the same with semi- or fully 3D animated models.

Puzzle: I think old mms have much more puzzle everywhere

True, but most of those were just repetetions of the same variety with minor increases in difficulty, like pulling the right combination of levers and switches, finding/combining the correct password and the obligatory walk-on-the-correct-tiles puzzles. And of course entering the third word in the second line of the 27nd page of the user manual.

Monster nest: Monster respawn until you destroy thier nest

Meh, I never really liked the nest idea, completely wiping out a species and it's habitats from the planet seems kinda mean actually.

Item materials: New version have many great graphic, but old system give more amount and randomize generator, it was simple and it work, old system give more items

Including utterly useless ones that make you wonder why they're even in the game and why the RNG hates you so much. A leather sword? How does that even work?
I personally enjoy the MM6-8 way of handling items a lot more, it has much more optical appeal and detail, gives me all the information I need, including stats, and includes a useless but fun to read background story of the item, inducing actual depth into the game world.
Plus the inventory makes a lot more sense space-wise compared to MM3-5.

Magic well: They give much more and interesting bonus, now just refreshing

Same as Macros, some of these wells have just been transformed into pedestals or other things but they're still there and kicking.

Spells: Probably old have more (anyway i think old system have everything more)

Again, what Macros said.

Incorrect, if you are strong and the plate armour is made of good steel, it's light enough to swim.

While partially true, the idea itself is still kinda irritating. Swimming in steel armor alone requires tremendous skill, factor in the additional clothing of the character (which most likely is not waterproof, therefore adding considerable amounts of weight and encumbrance) as well as the backpacks plus contents and you've got a bunch of rather good reasons to believe that swimming like that might not be the best idea.

[koval321]

What was so interesting about the ninja?

This class have largest amount of attack in one round, probably one new by each 5 levels. From what i seen during play these all attacks look like one hit, weapon strenght x amount of attack = damage. Now trick was to drink from well which rise levels. Knights was also good, near game ending my knight kill hydra and dragons faster than magicians. In later 6-8 system fighters have no chance against big monster.

More class give different team tactic, if you want less party then better are hybrid class. Instead of classic knight-robber-mage-cleric you can use ninja-druid. Well i always played WoX classic 4 char, but i think these extra weird class was design for small teams. Why play less team? They gain much faster experience, and its different challenging style. I see reason for this design. Probably 6 party is for beginners, and 2 for experienced who wish to play again on more difficulty level.

[Avonu]

In later 6-8 system fighters have no chance against big monster.

Well -my knight was doing 200+ damage to dragons in MM7 and also I was hitting Tolberti much more then he can regenarate his health with his spels.
No to mention about Paladins paralize skill when they are GM in mace and Thiefs tripple damage with daggers.

[koval321]

Ok but mages are much (i think 10x or maybe 100x) better, for example fly+starburst

In similar game wizardry8 fighters was even stronger than mages, and also possible very small or big team. MM6-8 use wrong rules system, well its still very good game but i can imagine better.

[Corlagon]

Also, this is yet another example of how the engine and overall game design limits the possibilities. I still have no insights about how production went down in the NWC offices, but I would assume that designing 2-dimensional animated sprites takes up a lot less time and ressources than doing the same with semi- or fully 3D animated models.

Reasonably it should be the inverse. Creating 2D sprites requires a huge amount of effort in pixel-pushing attempting to match proportion and flow between animations, plus you need to create each frame from scratch. Whereas after rigging a 3D model, you have all the sprites waiting for you - you just need to adjust the angle. When discussing the transition between Heroes II and MM6 in her portfolio, April Lee swore off 2D sprites forever in favour of 3D work.

[GreatEmerald]

Reasonably it should be the inverse. Creating 2D sprites requires a huge amount of effort in pixel-pushing attempting to match proportion and flow between animations, plus you need to create each frame from scratch. Whereas after rigging a 3D model, you have all the sprites waiting for you - you just need to adjust the angle. When discussing the transition between Heroes II and MM6 in her portfolio, April Lee swore off 2D sprites forever in favour of 3D work.

Quoted for truth. Go ask guys over at the WoG forums.

[Tress]

Team: 1-6 heroes. In fact need minimum 2 peoples to skills work, but its better when choose how large team you want. MM8 have similar but very broken

I think game is designed at party size that's is full team. I kinda even like better mm6,7 where you predefine team at the start. As much as i played mm4-5 i never switched team members anyway. MM8 is broken due to fact that preset of recrtuitable heroes are 1) poorly placed(you cant get DE until alvar, but you can get other way faster,thus it changes priority of first character you create.) 2) Too easy to get high lvl chars.

And not to mention an actually working hireling system.

If you reffer to mm3 hirelings I would say it makes same problems as recruiting Cauri early ingame. As for lower lvl its just extra 2 spots that cost a bit money.
System you described is really well implemented in wizardry 8, that i suggest everyone here would try if they havnt already, including ability to change characters on fly, and play solo as design.

Profession: Much more to choose, and interesting like ninja

I find class differences deeper in mm7/8. Ninja isnt really that interesting. Just hybrid of barbarian/thief. In mm7 class differences is really notable, even more because of promotion quests(unfortunately restriction made some classes obsolete). If you really want interesting classes to chose from, play wizardry 8. Ninja there is one of most debated classes, due to his specific gear options.

Interface: I like this monster which shown where are secret passage trough wall

Well this option works well on square type game. I have no ill feelings towards red squares that light up as suspicious from perception. That gives perception more uses, like possibility to see trapped road and so on. However it could be changed, for example it shouldn't work while running for example.

Balance: Fighters can attack many times in one round and thier damage was effective, visible balance between magic and might, later parts are "magic and magic" because fighter without magic weapon is useless

Fighters was rather effective in mm7, given that recovery timers are reduced enough. If i remember correctly , champion/spy duo could cut way thorough titan fortress faster than with magic. Also magic user were necessity in mm4/5 (teleport and so on) not to mention OP spells like implosion.

Skills: Instead of give more skills, they limit them, i think all travell skills could still work somehow, for example faster travell between area or less consume food, also swimming could work as waterwalk

Personally i hate skills that are artificially added to game, that should be in default game interface like cartographer. Travel skill wouldn't really fit too well in such game, specially if you had to sacrifice precious skill points for them, rather than 1 time money donation to talking head. As for water walk, we have alchemy that in fact brings other good stuff with it into the game.

World: From desert to snow, from forest to .....

Well mm7 had all that stuff in 1 game, including snow parts of Tatalia. Only things i dislike from mm7 is that they did not added Krelwood as reference to Homm3, and they used way different feeling for rest of locations as well(desert y bracada and so on)

Monster nest: Monster respawn until you destroy thier nest

Personally i hate respawning mobs, but thats matter of taste.

Item materials: New version have many great graphic, but old system give more amount and randomize generator, it was simple and it work, old system give more items

Ofc that brought more items into play, but 1) 70% were useless and rather weird like leather flamberge. 2) such generator made items rather unpersonalized and boring. One sword with little bio, makes up for half of that trash that you can loot in mm1-5.

Magic well: They give much more and interesting bonus, now just refreshing

MM6 was pretty rich with random effect of wells, so you had to be rather careful before thinking of using them.

Spells: Probably old have more (anyway i think old system have everything more)

Hope you took in account fact that in new games, spell have 1-4 ranks, and scales up from skill. Asides from simple nukes(flying fists,lighting bolts,implosions), spell rarely copied one another. So in the end i think spell system is better though in later game series. Not that Xeen ones didnt had great stuff too.

Incorrect, if you are strong and the plate armour is made of good steel, it's light enough to swim.

I understand that game(especially mm) is not documentary, and dont really have anything against swimming in it in game.. But i hope people here realize that plate was not even designed to walk around, not to mention swim. Thats pretty much D&D invention, even more considering that in 3ed swimming in plate is nearly impossible unless you have epic swimming levels.Even wearing chain shirt is hell. My friend made one and gave me to wear it for a bit, and i am pretty sure it was lighter than real deal, but that didn't prevented my shoulders from hurting like hell after some hour of wearing it, not to mention it really prevented me from fine movments with hands.

[Macros the Black]

It's not like the other modern RPGs. It doesn't give experience for no reason, thus being fair.

Well, if the other party members aren't your level there really are only two possibilities:
1. MM1-5 way of only having level 1 optional party members, in which case what's the point?
2. MM8 way of finding new higher level party members all the time, in which case nothing stops you from taking the strongest one as soon as they're available and thus always ending up with the same party at the same point in time. One possibility is to make party members the same level as the main characters when you unlock them, or unlocking them when you reach their level, but don't let them level up with you, but then you might as well let the player make their own party..

I just can't see this as a good thing

Also, hirelings are a good idea, like in MM3, you can hire someone if you're going into a really difficult dungeon - then you have a lot better chance of survival, although a drain on your money.

So you can always have a way to remove challenges from the game? Why? Aren't things like the NWC dungeon and many other helpful things you can opt to do enough? I know I won't be forced to make use of this hireling, but still.. It would just irk me. And, if the game will be designed to be challenging with a hireling, then it would effectively be the same as giving you one more party member at all times. Which, in my case of wanting 4 party members, means you only get to choose 3 party members at game creation, and choose one to accompany you later on. Since you need a knight, cleric, sorcerer, the hireling would just be a utility party member.. One that can disarm traps, see secret passages, etc. You might as well not be able to choose the thief at party creation and have to hire one instead.

That is what your mouse pointer is for

So I'd have to point my mouse at everything? Then what's the point of having something to alert me to it when I might as well just click to find out for myself while I'm pointing anyway...?

I don't feel busy enough without the puzzles. Besides, if going into a cavern in MM7/8, you are sure you won't find anything more interesting than enemies. MM6 is different, though.

Oh yes. I was mainly thinking of MM6. You're right, 7 and 8 could have used some more puzzles.

Well, right now I have a Leather Spell Horn of Toxic Clouds and Crystal Marksman Plate Armour of Blessing in MM3. I find it hilarious TBH, but it's not a bad thing. These days, seeing what Borderlands does, it's easy to create random generated 3D items that would have all the effects, too. Leather: texture, Spell: particles, Horn: model, Toxic Cloud: particles. Of course, comparison is quite difficult, but the price is usually a good guide in this.

Borderlands is aweome, but we're talking about a way different style of customization there. Borderlands has things like teleporting projectiles, lifestealing, etc.. Might and Magic customization usually comes down to deciding between extra armor or even more extra armor. But if you're vouching for bows shooting teleporting sparks that deal lifesteal damage, then I'm all for it.

Actually, this worsens one of the major problems of the MM series: the blandness and unimportance of the party. Throughout the whole series, the party just serves as a motor for the story; they don't actively change it, they just accept quests from the people that do and slay monsters. The tavern/inn aspect of the old games just puts further emphasis on this by indirectly saying that the party is replaceable.
You can compare it to the image of someone reading a book. The party in the MM series is essentially the hand that flips the pages and all the killing and questing is basically reading it, with the main quests being the chapter markers. Since the party is only reading the book and flipping it's pages, it can easily be replaced by another one; the story is written down already and the change has no significant impact on it whatsoever.

Well, the main advantage of having a bland "could be anyone" party is that you don't get bored or annoyed by the party members. They can be anyone you want them to be. Also, it helps replayability of the game because once you've seen Cloud's story, you're just clicking past the cutscenes.. At least that's what I do. I dunno.. I think this a strong point of the Might and Magic series. But, I do think it might be fun to include some more options with the quests. Like, instead of saving the farmer's daughter you could kill her and take her belongings for yourself. Since you're the one making the desicions, it doesn't get to where you're going "I've already seen this before".

When it comes to the travel skills, their main use (or rather the main use of the objects/tiles that you can't pass without the skills)was to limit the partys advancement into areas it shouldn't be in yet, somewhat outlining a route that has to be taken in order to advance in the game.
Sure, they could have converted the travel skills they way you propose it but then again that's already in the game in the form of the hirelings.

Not to mention that most players probably wouldn't use them since it doesn't matter much how much ingame time it takes for you to complete the game. And for the few speed players who do care about it, training these skills would probably take more time than it saves.

Ok but mages are much (i think 10x or maybe 100x) better, for example fly+starburst

In similar game wizardry8 fighters was even stronger than mages, and also possible very small or big team. MM6-8 use wrong rules system, well its still very good game but i can imagine better.

Mages have always traditionally been better at dealing with multiple enemies than warriors, while warriors can defeat a single stronger enemy easier. This is still the case in MM games, however the fact that there are a very limited amount of bosses and a very large amount of weak enemies kind of ruins the balance.

[GreatEmerald]

Fighters was rather effective in mm7, given that recovery timers are reduced enough. If i remember correctly , champion/spy duo could cut way thorough titan fortress faster than with magic. Also magic user were necessity in mm4/5 (teleport and so on) not to mention OP spells like implosion.

Teleport? You could always use the nice "Where to?" snake portal.

Well mm7 had all that stuff in 1 game, including snow parts of Tatalia. Only things i dislike from mm7 is that they did not added Krelwood as reference to Homm3, and they used way different feeling for rest of locations as well(desert y bracada and so on)

Krewlod Like Crew LOD (Level of Detail).
I'm more sad about Vori not being there.

Ofc that brought more items into play, but 1) 70% were useless and rather weird like leather flamberge. 2) such generator made items rather unpersonalized and boring. One sword with little bio, makes up for half of that trash that you can loot in mm1-5.

What about more random options, random descriptions and apperance based on the name? These days it's entirely possible and even easy compared to other parts of the game.

Not that Xeen ones didnt had great stuff too.

Megavolts!

Well, if the other party members aren't your level there really are only two possibilities:
1. MM1-5 way of only having level 1 optional party members, in which case what's the point?

I've even run into a situation like that where they would have been extremely useful. In MM1, I went to Erliquin and stole the town treasure, just to have half my party eradicated and having no real funds to heal them. Even lvl 1 party memers would have helped there. Though since it was a recording, I went the cheatish way and just hex edited the condition out (besides, MM1 screen didn't refresh to show the status ailment, I call bug).

So you can always have a way to remove challenges from the game? Why? Aren't things like the NWC dungeon and many other helpful things you can opt to do enough? I know I won't be forced to make use of this hireling, but still.. It would just irk me. And, if the game will be designed to be challenging with a hireling, then it would effectively be the same as giving you one more party member at all times. Which, in my case of wanting 4 party members, means you only get to choose 3 party members at game creation, and choose one to accompany you later on. Since you need a knight, cleric, sorcerer, the hireling would just be a utility party member.. One that can disarm traps, see secret passages, etc. You might as well not be able to choose the thief at party creation and have to hire one instead.

Have you played MM3 at all? If you did, you'd know that it's not "removing the challenge", it's "moving the challenge from brute force to money". Hirelings cost an insane amount of gold every day there, if they are any good.

So I'd have to point my mouse at everything? Then what's the point of having something to alert me to it when I might as well just click to find out for myself while I'm pointing anyway...?

I think you know the answer yourself. In your case the skill would be useless to you anyway, as you could always "click to find out for yourself". I assure that a lot of the times it would be death, eradication or a dragon That's what Clairvoyance does, says not to do something if it's harmful to you, it's not Perception.

Borderlands is aweome, but we're talking about a way different style of customization there. Borderlands has things like teleporting projectiles, lifestealing, etc.. Might and Magic customization usually comes down to deciding between extra armor or even more extra armor. But if you're vouching for bows shooting teleporting sparks that deal lifesteal damage, then I'm all for it.

I was talking about the items in the game, not the whole mechanics. Items there are random as in MM.

[Tress]

Teleport? You could always use the nice "Where to?" snake portal.

I mean 1-9 square thing that is must have to finish game. To get to lord xeen and other places like WOX endgame each world corner thing.

What about more random options, random descriptions and apperance based on the name? These days it's entirely possible and even easy compared to other parts of the game.

Ye its called Diablo 2. Still I hardly remeber any items there, I much better remember stuff that have even 1 line of description.

I'm more sad about Vori not being there.

Since Vori didnt made ingame apperance till last part of chronicles and mild mention in AB, wont really cry, then again NWC shouldnt have made that little renegade backstory and map piece in first place if they didn't bothered to include it. OFc would be nice to actually have that location in-game.

[GreatEmerald]

I mean 1-9 square thing that is must have to finish game. To get to lord xeen and other places like WOX endgame each world corner thing.

Yea, from what I've heard, you can use the snake portal to teleport directly to Lord XEEN. And you can jump to the corners AFAIK.

[Talin_Trollbane]

you mean those portal codes?

like, I LOST IT, LORD XEEN, COUNT DU MONEY and the other ones?

[GreatEmerald]

Cool, didn't know about those other ones. Lord XEEN is quite a logical thing to input, as is Castle XEEN.

I lost it? You never had it? Is that a running joke in the series?

[tolich]

'I lost it' is (cheating) way to obtain a Lord Xeen Slayer Sword.

[Rune_Caster]

I always hate having to charge up to a group of monsters and the first thing that they do is attack you right as you activate turn based mode (in Might and Magic 6+)

Yeah I didn't like the skill limitations, heck... Might and Magic need to become more simple again... remove skill levels and make skills level based again. Random chest are nice, but sometimes can be a pain in the butt... "WTF why do I need an Obsidian Ring for?"

[Naal]

I'll throw in my own two cents about might versus magic in the later might and magics. This is the average end game melee damage that my characters could do in parts 7 and 8. Triple damage for dagger is not included.

MM7
Knight 250 sword/spear
Monk 205 unarmed
Thief 203 duel daggers
Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and archer all a little over 100
Ranger don't know, don't care
Paladin never fully developed one, I'm guessing 120 from memory

MM8
Knight 265 sword/spear
Minotaur 154 2h axe
Troll 152 duel wielding Terminus and Breaker
Vampire 150 duel dagger
Dark Elf 130 duel swords
Cleric 105
Necromancer little over 100

As for magic towards the end of the game shrapmetal can do well over 1000 damage. This is enough to kill most monster and do about 3/4 damage to blood titans and the stronger dragons. The aoe spells like Meteor Shower, Star Burst and Soul Drinker can deal much more damage, and damage a lot faster than if you melee one monster at a time. After you have reached GM for your skills your weapons and armsmaster skills only increase your damage 1-2 points where as each additional point in magic can increase damage from about 5-100. So the higher the level you get the bigger the difference there is between might damage versus magic damage.