Tactics = IMBA

[csarmi]

No it doesn't work like that. I do buffs at the end of the round, came out of LoS (my champions are able to outwait you with ease), march forward.

Then I start next round with my champions (first strike + buffs) = one dead dragon. Then I cast anti-magic on my champions and it's game over. Your heroes, the remaining dragon, everything will be killed by my champs alone.

And that's only one of the winning plans. You won't be able to cancel my buffs because I will cast them when you are done. See now? That's what you constantly overlook.

And anyways, 2 black dragons would kill 9 champions if left alone to fight, but they are helpless if I summon somehing to take the retal... no creature can survive too first strikes in a row from the champions.

[Banedon]

How do you propose to do buffs at the end of the round? Cast Mass Fervor and wait? With three of my heroes casting Cancellation I will cancel the Fervor from your two Life Priests and then the Fervor / assorted buffs from your Champions.

Also, with the Champions out of LoS, the Druid (you need Anti-Magic) and the Tactician (leaving him on the front row is suicide), you'd necessarily leave your Life Priests within DD range. They die. Even Expert Magic Resistance won't save them.

I don't see how you intend to steal the retaliation too, since the Black Dragons are far away and you can't summon any creature fast enough to reach in a turn without me trampling them down with DD.

[csarmi]

I will wait THEN cast Mass Fervor at the end of the round. Plus, expert resistance paired with mass chaos ward, for example, would be enough to turn your spells to next to useless. My priests won't die so easily, trust me

I can also summon satyrs and outcast you with them (they have good morale). Either way, my priests win on initiative versus your necromancers.

[Banedon]

That's what I said - you won't be able to exploit Mass Fervor for TWO rounds. One, of course, but not two.

I do not worry about Mass Chaos Ward - I cancel it. Makes all your Priests mortal again, and they die. If you summon Satyrs I might spare one of my Chaos Casters to cast Fireball (or some other AoE spell), clearing them and again revealing the creatures behind to LoS.

At least one of your Life Priests will not make it through the first round. If I wanted I could probably kill 2 of your Champions too with Fireball. If I wanted even more I could probably hit your Champions with Cloud Of Confusion, immobilizing them with one Sorcerer while the other two continue to hit your Life Priests (or Champions) with DD. Cast Mass Chaos Ward for all I care; I simply Cancel them afterwards. After all, I have 3 heroes casting Cancellation, and I am going to use them.

I don't understand what you mean by "win on initiative". For something like that to happen, it'll be at least the third turn.

[csarmi]

One round is enough for me to finish the fight for good.

Suppose I manage to cast Mass Fervor on the end of the first round.

Then the fight goes like this:

As the last move on turn 1, my champions charge forward.
(before that, I managed to put mass fervor and some buffs on it)

Second round begins.
Champions hit black dragons. Black dragons are toast.
Champions are anti-magic'd.

Banedon gives up.

That's plan A.

And, btw, mass chaos ward and mass fortune + resistance is extremely powerful. You won't be able to use mass spells at all. Yes you might be able to time a cancel and kill one of the heroes. Later maybe one more. But that's all, sooner or later you are dead cause you can't contain the champion stack.

oh and once I manage to get rid of the black dragon stack, i can anti-magic my life heroes one by one and byebye chaos casters

and timing is not so easy

for example, you wait with your sorcerers, I wait with my life casters and such... now your death casters come and they can cast cancel all they want, cause now my heroes are on turn backwards and they can decide now what to do

you got the same problem with cloud of confusion: I will remove the spell from the champions BEFORE the champions would get to move (so they won't lose their turn)

it all matters on the actual battle setup, who moves when and such

[Banedon]

As the last move on turn 1, my champions charge forward.
(before that, I managed to put mass fervor and some buffs on it)

What if your heroes move first before the Champions? The Champions will ahve to waste their first turn unless they move forward, wherupon they'd be toast to my own heroes who waited.

And, btw, mass chaos ward and mass fortune + resistance is extremely powerful. You won't be able to use mass spells at all. Yes you might be able to time a cancel and kill one of the heroes. Later maybe one more. But that's all, sooner or later you are dead cause you can't contain the champion stack.

I'm going to Cancel Mass Chaos Ward and Mass Fortune on the crucial stacks - your Priests and your Champions (and Druid and Tactician, should the chance arise). You can keep Chaos Ward and Fortune on your summoned Satyrs all you want; I won't be spending my Cancellation on them.

for example, you wait with your sorcerers, I wait with my life casters and such... now your death casters come and they can cast cancel all they want, cause now my heroes are on turn backwards and they can decide now what to do

What makes you think your Life Priests move before my Necromancers? What if it's the other way round?

you got the same problem with cloud of confusion: I will remove the spell from the champions BEFORE the champions would get to move (so they won't lose their turn)

Not if your Life Priests are confused themselves. I have 3 Chaos Casters, remember?

it all matters on the actual battle setup, who moves when and such

You admit then you have a realistic chance of losing?

[csarmi]

What if your heroes move first before the Champions? The Champions will ahve to waste their first turn unless they move forward, wherupon they'd be toast to my own heroes who waited.

That's impossible. Champions have much higher initiative than any heroes on the battlefield + they get positive morale from tactician, while heroes are at zero morale or close to, normally.

I'm going to Cancel Mass Chaos Ward and Mass Fortune on the crucial stacks - your Priests and your Champions (and Druid and Tactician, should the chance arise). You can keep Chaos Ward and Fortune on your summoned Satyrs all you want; I won't be spending my Cancellation on them.

Of course. It's a complicated fight, but I think that your chances are kind of slim.

What makes you think your Life Priests move before my Necromancers? What if it's the other way round?

They are higher level.

Not if your Life Priests are confused themselves. I have 3 Chaos Casters, remember?

Well, good luck on confusing through the resistance.

You admit then you have a realistic chance of losing?

Against you, no. Against m8mat or teacher, maybe.

[SmokingBarrel]

We lost the heroes 4 due to um...some...misfortune, a bunch of twist and turns, is there any way you can check out master implosion dmg?

Having your heroes higher level doesn't mean they would move first, would it?

The chaos sorcerers might move first over the life priests...

How did you manage to get expert magic resistance on all the heroes? Quite impossible to me...

This is just a battle, or is this the real fireball map?

Sigh...the price of being absent for such a long time...

I wonder if this is suicidal...the black dragons move in to knock out some heroes...seems suicidal enough...

[Banedon]

We lost the heroes 4 due to um...some...misfortune, a bunch of twist and turns, is there any way you can check out master implosion dmg?

We didn't lose Heroes 4. We lost Winds of War (at least, I can't find the files now...) but not Gathering Storm.

That's impossible. Champions have much higher initiative than any heroes on the battlefield + they get positive morale from tactician, while heroes are at zero morale or close to, normally.

Doesn't mean they will get Good Morale, or that none of the other heroes will get good morale. But I feel this is irrelevant. Champions move first. They wait. OK.

Of course. It's a complicated fight, but I think that your chances are kind of slim.

You can view that as my own reply to you, except I think your chances are closer zero than slim.

They are higher level.

I have 3 Necromancers, one of them is at comparable level as you (the Tactician).

Well, good luck on confusing through the resistance.

You have Advanced Magic Resistance (50%) - since we're fighting at Master level magics I don't think you'll have Expert. You may even have Basic (wherupon I celebrate).
I have 3 Chaos casters casting Cloud of Confusion.

It is difficult to calculate the exact probabilities (each Cloud of Confusion can hit two of your Life Priests after all; if you split them up I can hit your Nature Druid or Champions), but approximations indicate that if all three of my Chaos Sorcerers cast Cloud of Confusion, I have over 50% chance of confusing BOTH your Life Priests - unless you split them up, wherupon I confuse one of your Life Priests and your Nature Druid.

The easier solution is of course just to pound the poor Life Priests to death with my DD spells (after Cancellation, of course).

Against you, no. Against m8mat or teacher, maybe.

Your sentence brings a smile to my face If I win this battle, I'll search them up and tell them what happened.

[csarmi]

I tried a fight. Needless to say, I won with life. So I am better than me

Now, seriously.

I gave you:

Level 9 fireguard x 3 (master chaos, adv combat and such)
Level 9 general (did not have place for adv death magic AND decent combat)
Level 5 assasin x 2 (adv death, some other magic, combat)

I didn't really change my army cause I wouldn't find it fair (if I had a fighter hero, you would be toast). I had something like this:

Level 9 paladin x 2 (master life)
Level 9 general
Level 8 beastmaster (master nature)
Level 7 monk (expert order, advanced life)
Level 5 fireguard (combat, resist, some magics)

This army sux bad (can I make a good one instead?), but still I won.

statistics:

Implosion does 230 damage (unmodified), lightining does 200ish, fireball and such is some 100ish.

Normally assasins move first, then the paladins/fireguards, then the generals, then the lower level heroes.

(creatures move before heroes)

So maybe assume that round 1 the move order is (morale included for now):
B-fireguard, M-paladin, B-black dragons, M-champions, B-assasin, B-assasin, M-beastmaster, B-fireguard, M-monk, B-fireguard, M-paladin, B-general, M-general, M-fighter

your first row is: blackies, fireguard, assasin, assasin
my first row is: paladin, monk, fighter, paladin

Your turn now, what's the plan?

[prowler]

Sorry for breaking your discussion! But i have question and didnt find any better tred.
Did you notice that if you have Water walk spell and try to walk through some gate(blue, orange...) that is in a sea you can not. And you did visited tent and so on?

[ThunderTitan]

Well ur not alowed to stop on the water, and gates require you to stop.

[Banedon]

This army sux bad (can I make a good one instead?)

Sure you can.

B-fireguard, M-paladin, B-black dragons, M-champions, B-assasin, B-assasin, M-beastmaster, B-fireguard, M-monk, B-fireguard, M-paladin, B-general, M-general, M-fighter

You got the order wrong. Your Paladin is higher level than your Monk, and the same applies to your General. Should be

B-fireguard, M-paladin, B-black dragons, M-champions, B-assassin, B-assassin, M-PALADIN, B-fireguard, M-GENERAL, B-fireguard, M-MONK, B-general, M-fighter. Makes sense?

Your turn now, what's the plan?

What's the Magic Resistance on your front-line heroes?

Oh, and I should say it seems distinctively unfair that you have 3 Master casters AND one Expert caster versus my 3 Master casters and 2 Advanced mages (it's possible for a hero to learn Advanced Death Magic at level 3, after all; with Altars and Seminaries and so on some Combat won't be too difficult, either), but for now I'll try this battle and then only worry.

EDIT: Tests indicate that Implosion on a Level 9 Master Chaos Sorcerer does 273 damage, without Sorcery. I don't know where you got your 230 damage, but it certainly is in conflict with my own tests.

[csarmi]

No, the order is right. Heroes gain speed increase every 5 levels or such, so our high level heroes have 6 speed, our low level ones 5 speed.

Of course our fireguard/paladin got morale.

I remember 230 damage or such, but I shall check once I get home.

I will also set the fight up and will determine who will get morale when, okay?

We can also distribute 3 speed bonus to our heroes.

I will post the defense/hp etc every hero has and you can comment before the fight begins.

My priests have 50% / 70% resistance accordingly, if I recall correctly. My monk has 50% (was it 30?) too (he has permanent chaos ward as well). My fireguard is immune to fire spells. In the back row I got my champions, my tactician and my druid has 50% resist too.

I only went with this army because that's about what I had in the last topic. I think I even have a pathfinder who is close to useless. Yea dn I have a level 3 caster and a level 1 caster to your two level 2's so it should be alright.

Some threats that you should consider:

Blind, Song of Peace, Confusion, Wasp Swarm on your assasins (your cancel is harder to time).

Anti-Magic on champions in a good moment. Guardian angel.

mass fortune, mass speed, mass fervor and mass chaos ward buffs

if you lose both your black dragons, you may consider yourself dead

[prowler]

Quote:Well ur not alowed to stop on the water, and gates require you to stop.

It is not true.on land when you visit keymaster tent you can go true gate without stoping. you just go stright through. And when you try with ship you can also pass without stoping. You are only blocked with water walk.
Strange!

[ThunderTitan]

Hmm... I just assumed it's like in H3. Don't you stop at all when going through? Doesn't it show you some text?

[csarmi]

Of course he does stop when passing through and even an event is called. You just don't see yourself stopped.

[prowler]

No, no text.it is heroes3.you must visit the keymaster tent to pass through, and when you visit it, for example red one, you just go straight through. And i think you you mean something different. you mean on the border guard that disapears after you visit it second time, when you got words from keymaster tent. I am refering to something similair. There are some sort of gates that look like two sticks from the left and right and passege in the middle. it also reguires wisiting keymaster tent, but then you go through. do you know now what i mean? sorry for bad english!

[Banedon]

No, the order is right. Heroes gain speed increase every 5 levels or such, so our high level heroes have 6 speed, our low level ones 5 speed.

Odd. My level 1 heroes have 6 speed while my level 33 Bohb has only 10 speed (most of which, I presume, came from speed boosts).

I remember 230 damage or such, but I shall check once I get home.

Which brings to mind one thing. What do you do for work? With all your analytical ability, thoroughness and complete sense of superiority I find it difficult to envisage a job for you.

I will also set the fight up and will determine who will get morale when, okay?

Don't. You have no time. Play Civilization 4.

My priests have 50% / 70% resistance accordingly, if I recall correctly. My monk has 50% (was it 30?) too (he has permanent chaos ward as well). My fireguard is immune to fire spells. In the back row I got my champions, my tactician and my druid has 50% resist too.

I did search for your army, but I did not see it. You might want to look for it yourself:

http://www.forumplanet.com/StrategyPlan ... 85070&p=10

Also, it's rather difficult for me to believe in Expert Magic Resistance on a Master caster, especially since your own GM casters hadn't learnt Master Magic Resistance yet.

Yea dn I have a level 3 caster and a level 1 caster to your two level 2's so it should be alright.

Your Expert casters must be at a minimum of level 5, while my Advanced casters can simply make use of the Battle Scholar Academy and any loose Learning Stones for level 3.

Blind, Song of Peace, Confusion, Wasp Swarm on your assasins (your cancel is harder to time).

Blind's a level 4 spell and you haven't a Master Order caster, so no problems. Song of Peace and Wasp Swarm (you can't cast Confusion) are possible, but given my Assassins should have at least 50% Magic Resistance and I have two of them, I'm not sure if it's worth your while spending a precious move to attempt them. It's not like my Cloud of Confusion - with Cloud of Confusion I can reasonably attempt to immobilize at least one of your stacks.

Anti-Magic on champions in a good moment. Guardian angel.

AntiMagic is the real threat. Guardian Angel is nothing - I Cancel it and destroy the Champions.

mass fortune, mass speed, mass fervor and mass chaos ward buffs

All dangerous (especially Mass Speed and Mass Fervor), but I'm going to use Cancellation anyway.

if you lose both your black dragons, you may consider yourself dead

Undoubtedly (unless you also lose your 9 Champions). It's the same case as "If you lose all your Champions, you may consider yourself dead".

One thing. I find it odd you didn't mention the Order spell Teleport, which would allow your Champions to attack the Black Dragons at once (albeit not manage to make use of their Charge ability). It's going to be relatively easy for me to obstruct the Champion's path.

Some threats you should consider:

Mass Misfortune, especially if you've just cast a Mass Fortune spell.
Sorrow, if my Assassin moves before your Mass Fervor mage (or if the Mass Fervor mage doesn't live through the first round )
Implosion - this is the main spell.
Inferno - a spell I might use to hit your Champions (Note: the same test indicates that a level 9 Master Sorcerer without Sorcery does 113 damage with Inferno; with 3 casts I can kill 2 of your Champions and seriously hurt your casters)
Cancellation
Confusion
Cloud of Confusion

[wimfrits]

Odd. My level 1 heroes have 6 speed while my level 33 Bohb has only 10 speed (most of which, I presume, came from speed boosts).

That's an equilibris effect.
Non-equi: heroes start with speed 6
Equi: heroes start with speed 5 and gain +1 speed every 5 levels.