JVC Leaves Trion

[Kalah]

It seems Trion have joined with Petroglyph for the making of their first game:



http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23369

[JSE]

vitirr,



why do you think that JVC wouldn't know how to bring the Heroes series (and the M&M series for that matter) back to its former glory? – Because he is some years older? – Because things didn't work out for him at two MMO companies?



These things don't matter at all!



What matters is that the original Heroes games are still being played – despite their age. They are pure, timeless fun. What matters is that in a 2003 interview with CH, JVC showed immense understanding of the series as a whole and presented a game concept for Heroes 5 that would have undoubtedly resulted in a perfect Heroes game.



(Instead, of course, 3DO went bankrupt, and Nival got to do Heroes 5. They delivered a product that – while not being a *bad* product per se – was uninspired and little more than a 3D version of Heroes 3.)



The Heroes 5 disappointment clearly shows that an integral part was missing during the game's development: the original creator and his vision!



Heroes 4 already hinted at that: JVC was reportedly involved to a very small degree only, and the game suffered from many inconsistencies and overall imbalance. I personally prefer it to (Nival's) Heroes 5, but I can understand why quite a number of fans were disappointed by it as well.



Finally, M&M 9 is also a brilliant example for what happens if the original creator isn't involved.



I think these three cases are solid proof for my thesis: Only JVC can make M&M games the outstanding games they once were.

[ywhtptgtfo]

JSE, I'd disagree. Other than JVC, there were many others who contributed to HoMM and M&M, notably Jeniffer (Maranthea) Bullard, Christian Vanover, and David Milluch. Just because JVC was the figurehead of NWC, it doesn't mean he is everything that made the franchise great.



Oh, and... HoMM 5 had some very subpar programmers and story-writers.

[Angelspit]

*cough* Mark Caldwell *cough*

[JSE]

Of course NWC consisted of many other talented people – among them also artists like Bonita Long-Hemsath and Phelan Sykes, and let's not forget about Rob King and Paul Romero whose music gave the Heroes games great mood and atmosphere.



But while the personnel changed quite a bit from King's Bounty to Heroes 1 and from Heroes 2 to 3, JVC remained in a leading design and directing position, overseeing the development of all games. Christian Vanover and David Mullich (who undoubtedly had a lot of influence later on) didn't work on Heroes game design until Heroes 3.



The original King's Bounty basically was a one-man design show: JVC was solely responsible for game design while Mark Caldwell and a few others did the coding and contributed the art. And I'd be highly surprised if anyone wants to deny that KB is a visionary masterpiece which eventually led to the highly succesful Heroes series; it's bursting with gameplay and is still awesome today.



Also Heroes 1, which is the single most important design step in the entire series and which gave it its characteristic gameplay, was mainly designed and created by JVC – with some contributions from his wife (Debbie) and Phil Steinmeyer.



The same is true for the first two M&M RPGs, by the way: JVC designed them all by himself. They were extremely influential and not only paved the way for the following M&M games but helped to shape the face of computer role-playing in general.



I hope this is convincing proof that JVC is the person mainly responsible for the games we all love.




Edited on Tue, Apr 28 2009, 23:17 by JSE

[ThunderTitan]

>It seems Trion have joined with Petroglyph for the making of their first game:<

1st MMO maybe... they already made a SW RTS and the woefully under-appreciated Universe at War...

[Kalah]

Trion's first game, not Petroglyph's... learn some English, ya scurvy rat...

[astral76minor]

Time and time again, the community of Heroes is known for hope. Consequently, we wish that our views for the next Heroes game will be considered and implemented. Now the community must find a way to make sure the developers hear us.



We no longer shall sit back and just wait for the game to hit the store shelves and then discover that our hope is lost. No more can we complain about future Heroes games without taking an active role in the development.



I propose that the front page of Celestial Heavens hold a wishlist and a complaint section about all the Heroes games. This will be used as viable information for the creation of the next Heroes game.



At some point in time, interviews will be held with the developers of the next Heroes title. We will review our credentials and submit the “viable” information from the wishlist and complaint section on the front page to the developers.



This seems like the only realistic method of improving the game. Somehow the community must confirm that we will be heard by the new developers. If at least 10 of our crucial new ideas get implemented into the rumored Heroes 6, then we have overcome the past. Perhaps our hopes will no longer be dreams of optimism. The fans, at least some of them, shall be heard.

[JSE]

I second this. It's a great idea! It's also what the CH staff might be looking for in terms of site activity.



Let's start a large, well-structured wish list which is easily accessible from the front page.



---



Speaking of activity: I'm thinking about setting up an online petition requesting JVC's return to M&M design. What do you guys think?

[HellSpawn]

I also second astral76minor's idea.

Not only would it increase this site's activity, but it just might get the developer's attention.



I like the wish list idea.

[Kalah]

I propose that the front page of Celestial Heavens hold a wishlist and a complaint section about all the Heroes games.

That's what the forums are for, dude. And although there have already been several such threads, feel free to make another one.

[rdeford]

@ astral76minor et al.



I agree with you that now is the time for optimism and activity. A wish-list is a great idea! If hundreds of us post wishes it will show the developers that there is a fan base that is alive and well, and interested in buying H6. Nothing, absolutely nothing, promotes game development funding like a hungry market. And the goal of market research is to find out what product will fill that market's needs. A wish-list would work in our favor both ways. In other words, if we want it, we have to start shouting from the rooftops, or we just aren't going to get it. And, as astral76minor says, if our community shows optimism and vigor in looking forward, instead of negative complaints about the past, we stand a better chance of being heard. Since a wish is not a complaint, a wish-list is a great way to go.



As for JVC, well, who can say anything for certain? He was the original Hero, true. And I love him for that. But what is he now? I was totally unimpressed with Trion's concepts and offerings. I think we need an interview with him to find out where his head is these days. What's that old saying? Be careful what you wish for...



Anyway, enough idle chatter. Where in the heck is that H6 wish-list? I have a few wishes ready to go.

[JSE]

Technically the Round Table forums are an okay place for posting wishes for Heroes 6. The problem I see is that simply starting a couple of threads in the Heroes 5 forum or any other game specific forum would not only be out of place but also way too ordinary.



I understand that the implementation of a completely new software system for this matter is probably too much to ask for – so I suggest the following approach:



1.) A new forum category called "Fan Wishes" or the like is created and preferably located at the top of the forum index. It contains forums for general aspects of Heroes 6 gameplay each – like "Heroes 6: Factions" or "Heroes 6: Combat". While more detailed wishes should be posted in new threads, a collective (sticky) thread at the top of each forum can be used to post "quick wishes" (like "I want Genies").



2.) Some sort of button or permanent link to the wish forum category is put on the CH front page so that easy access is possible and to make occasional visitors aware of the new community activity.



What do you think?

[ywhtptgtfo]

It has to be something better than just a forum to attract substantial attention. Maybe... a moderated wiki that analyzes detailed aspects of each game.

[JSE]

A wiki could be used in a later stage to flesh out certain concepts. As a wish list, however, a forum system or a similar system is much better suited in my opinion: It's much more accessible and allows for easy discussion of ideas.



Most wiki systems (like the popular MediaWiki) have awkward discussion functions.

[Kalah]

I'll open up a new discussion thread in the H5 forum.

[JSE]

First of all, thank you very much for responding to our ideas, Kalah. I don't want to seem ungrateful or anything but now is still time to make a new forum (sub-fourm) out of it. This would allow us to organise our wishes and to discuss them instead of simply posting them in a row. A single thread containing all community wishes will soon be very inconvenient to read and will only be of limited help for developers of a possible new Heroes game.



Please give us a forum! By now, wishes for new games are much more important for Heroes fans than celebrating the "good old times".

[astral76minor]

JSE hit it right on nail. There needs to be some kind of organization for all the wish list information, or else it will end up being jibberish.

Let us introduce a voting system later on. We'll narrow it down to the 10 best wishes and then create sub-forums for each topic/wish. Then the community can discuss each of the 10 wishes in more specific detail....
Edited on Fri, May 01 2009, 18:09 by astral76minor

[Kalah]

Ideas and discussions about the future are always nice, but I don't think it's necessary to set up a separate Heroes 6 forum until we hear anything concrete.

[astral76minor]

Ideas and discussions about Heroes 6 are happening beyond the scope of this webpage. There may be a kindling fire of only a few people right now whom are about to make that first move and turn rumor into concrete fact. The truth is that we may not know until the day it is revealed. Being prepared for the future becomes a new hope and we never know who is listening. A little spark may become that which we desire....
Edited on Fri, May 01 2009, 20:45 by astral76minor