Atlantic Empires

RobB · Unread postby **RobB** » 05 Mar 2009, 07:45

Playing Green, I was enjoying myself, when suddenly the game just hung on Blue's turn. I tried loading This Turn and then Last Turn and doing something different, but it just kept on happening. Could there be a bug? The most common one that causes this is when two creature producers at the same level are enabled, but I don't think that can be the case here, because (from memory) all towns start at basic level.

Has anyone else had problems?

RobB · Unread postby **RobB** » 05 Mar 2009, 07:56

My apologies: it was not Atlantic, but Arctic Empires.

Koni · Unread postby **Koni** » 05 Mar 2009, 10:16

Hallo Rob, I played all 4 A-maps, but never encountered such "hanging"problems.

Btw, do you know that Ancient and Atlantic Empires are available in German language.

Bist Du interessiert, die mal in Deutscher Version zu spielen?

ByteBandit · Unread postby **ByteBandit** » 06 Mar 2009, 23:08

Hi RobB. Good to see you.

Like Koni, I have never encountered this problem on any of the maps. I've played them all through without a single hitch. Are you sure you have all the updated patches? Check that out. Also, if you can install Equilibrus, this seems to help if your having some glitch. I play the standard H4 using Equilibrus. Works great! Good luck!

Yurian Stonebow · Unread postby **Yurian Stonebow** » 09 Mar 2009, 15:23

I recall playing Arctic Empires through in four playing sessions, and found no bugs whatsoever. If I were to "complain" about something related to ByteBandit's masterpiece, well... Warsaw is located too much to the east. It seems to be in Belarus' territory instead of mid-Poland, which is located several hundred kilometres to the west. (not sure what this would make in in-game terms, perhaps several squares) Some town info bits could use a more coherent style. Now prepare for the worst critisism

...No Finnish towns are featured on the map?! Oh well, like I said, these are only minor issues found in a map that otherwise is well-planned and pleases the eye.

Yurian

Koni · Unread postby **Koni** » 12 Mar 2009, 07:45

Yurian Stonebow wrote:Some town info bits could use a more coherent style.

Yes, they could. I apologize for that. It's not BB's fault.

Salamandre · Unread postby **Salamandre** » 12 Mar 2009, 08:36

Wrong location of cities regardless true reality is not always mapmaker's fault.

If in reality 2 cities are located at one hundred miles one from other, that will make 2-3 squares on a map treating a whole continent or even whole world.
Thus making them look bad in-game, and also eliminating any exploration possibilities between them.

Yurian Stonebow · Unread postby **Yurian Stonebow** » 12 Mar 2009, 20:19

The thing with maps "borrowing" stuff from, or being real world maps, is that the map maker needs to set the scale, and then use his or hers knowledge of the area in question to properly place towns on the map. Small error in scale can end up with the target town being several hundred of kilometres or miles off the "real" location. Using various differently scaled and projected real world maps will not help in the progress.

I have made this error before, so I think that I know what I'm talking about. But, there are many other ways to make mistakes when "importing" a real world map into the Heroes map editor. I'm not accusing anyone of anything just stating my point of view.

What I said above reflect my personal "findings" and experience with the H3 map editor. Errors related to scaling with the H4 editor may be of a totally different sort. Compromises will be almost mandatory. Ecaxt real world location vs location in the Heroes' map editor means just this: some fine tuning in favour of the game's playability and general enjoyment of the map must take place. My two cents.

@Koni: well, I wasn't accusing you or BB of sloppy map making - I was simply pointing out what I thought were minor issues in an otherwise enjoyable map

Salamandre · Unread postby **Salamandre** » 12 Mar 2009, 22:12

There is a difference between location and distance that must be kept in mind when using the editor. Scaling real world cities and placing them in the exact square will distort the other necessary value, the distance.

Getting in less than one turn from Paris to Berlin is unrealistic, but this should be the exact location if scaled on real world maps. But then, what we do with the distance?

In both cases, one of the variables is distorted. Up to the mapmaker to make a choice. Keeping both is not always possible, regardless how big or small the map is.

Yurian Stonebow · Unread postby **Yurian Stonebow** » 14 Mar 2009, 10:34

Well, we can choose the approximate location instead of the exact location. The very size of a town can be about one hundred kilometres or so, depending on the scale used. We can never achieve perfectness and thus compromises will come into picture. According to one definition for "compromise", it referrs to a solution that, in the end, satisfies no-one. This means that a compromise is often the least of many "evils". But we have the freedom of choice. Agreed and signed.

Speaking for myself, Arctic Empires is a great map which I'd rate personally a 9.5/10. Sadly, with my limited experience, I'm not much of a H4 player which prevents me from fully enjoying the map and giving credit for map making tricks used. Anyway, the minor issues found in Arctic Empires do not interfere with gameplay and the scenery is detailed and very much fits with the overall theme and style of the map.

I wish to apologize to ByteBandit for me not being there helping out with the testing process of the map and also, for failing to take part in his campaign project started after Sandro's epic campaign was finished and hailed as a masterpiece here on the forums. I admit that my many personal troubles at the time were to take the blame and for that I'm truly sorry for. I remained out of contact with him for a long time out of feeling guilty and ashamed of my behaviour.

If you are reading this BB, I hope you can forgive me the flaws of my character and shake my hand.

Sincerally,

Yurian

ByteBandit · Unread postby **ByteBandit** » 21 Mar 2009, 21:03

Yurian Stonebow wrote: Now prepare for the worst critisism ...No Finnish towns are featured on the map?!
Yurian

I did that on purpose so someone from Finland would write a post saying there were no Finnish towns.

I tried putting towns in every area, but after 30 plus towns per map, I figured enough was enough.

And criticism is still a form of flattery. At least someone is paying attention to your creation.

Oh! And Yurian? Your're a fellow mapmaker. You're criticism is considered a blessing. You know what you like to see when it comes to painting a map together. After all, it's easier to judge a piece of work than it is to create one. That's why maptesters are like gold to me! They make the map that much more fun to play than you could by yourself.(And always give them as much credit as you do yourself.) It's all good!

Yurian Stonebow · Unread postby **Yurian Stonebow** » 22 Mar 2009, 22:02

@ByteBandit:

"I did that on purpose so someone from Finland would write a post saying there were no Finnish towns. I tried putting towns in every area, but after 30 plus towns per map, I figured enough was enough."

I understand. Making an extra-large map with 30+ maps takes "some" time and requires extensive planning, which real world cities and towns to feature in "the finished product", their correct location, what to leave out etc. I still wish that there were enough room for at least one Finnish city... but like I said, it's a great map even if there is no Finnish cities in it. And you did succeed in getting what you wanted to, having a Finn complaining to you about this great injustice.

I furthermore agree with you that all dedicated maptesters should be respected and their work highly valued by the mapmaker. Koni and Muszka, for example, are such people. They are honest and hard working, write great reports and have given me many great ideas how to further develop the map in question. This is why I dedicated Tolkien's Middle-earth 1.0 to Muszka and will dedicate American Civil War (North) 1.0 to Koni. Splendid working with them

Yurian

Koni · Unread postby **Koni** » 22 Mar 2009, 23:10

ByteBandit · Unread postby **ByteBandit** » 27 Mar 2009, 01:51

@ Yurian:
I apologize for no Finnish towns in Arctic E. I suppose you could put one in the map if you like. There are no true rules to my mapmaking. The only work I've done that I wish never to be altered by anyone, however, is TRaFoS.
Of course, Koni has altered it though. In to German that is.

@ Koni:
It's well desrved what Yurian and I have both acknowledged towards you and Muszka. You guys are among the best to work with. Working with Koni harkens back to the days when Fnord and myself tackled the map "Painted:The Misfit."
And where is that Muszka dude, anyway?

darknessfood · Unread postby **darknessfood** » 27 Mar 2009, 02:08

Yeah, just like some members, he just left all of a sudden!

Yurian Stonebow · Unread postby **Yurian Stonebow** » 30 Mar 2009, 09:41

Last time we saw Muszka was, I think, about half a year ago. I don't know what happaned or why he decided to leave CH, all I do know is that I miss him. He's a great guy to have around, and it's especially a sore loss from a mapmaker's point of view for he has a reputation (well earned) for being a good maptester. I do hope he is allright and just taking a break from CH. We all have our own personal worries and stuff that keeps bothering us in real life, for all we know he may just have his hands full of work at the moment.

Thumbs up for his quick return to the Heroes circle.

@ByteBandit: there's nothing I would change in Arctic Empires aside from the minor issues I already mentioned. Adding Helsinki or Turku, perhaps even Tampere would be nice but it's really not that necessary and I wouldn't want to alter the existing scenery (which is nicely done and detailed), so no worries there. Touching Sandro's epic campaign is out of the question, I agree that it should always remain in its original form.

Yurian

RobB · Unread postby **RobB** » 15 Apr 2009, 07:48

I think I did say early on that I had made a mistake: nothing wrong with Arctic Empires, but I've just this minute had the game hang again with Atlantic. No backtracking to previously save games seems to avoid this.

I've played it several times starting with England, but every time I start in Spain, it seems I get this problem fairly late into the game. Since I have Mac, I can't get Equilibris, so that's no help. I'm beginning to think I'll have to move on to Heroes V soon as there are so few games for IV.

Koni · Unread postby **Koni** » 15 Apr 2009, 08:54

Hi Rob, as I told you before you should go to Winds of War: and there were a lot more cool maps, you could play (in German language as well!).

Never had a crash with Atlantic Empires, playing both sides.

RobB · Unread postby **RobB** » 16 Apr 2009, 09:19

Unfortunately, no-one seems prepared to port WoW to Macintosh. I am not prepared to start a war over the Mac/PC issue.

ByteBandit · Unread postby **ByteBandit** » 09 May 2009, 07:56

That's gotta suck. Maybe Slava will come back someday and figure out how to address this problem.

But that aside, I have never heard of crashes on the Empires Series on regular Windows or Vista. Sorry RobB

And perhaps Muzska will show up again. Something in real life may be more important to him right now than an electronic game. Let's hope that's all it is and he'll be back soon. Truly a great friend and one of the best map testers I have ever had the pleasure to work with. And I know that other map testers respected his opinion which shows you the true value of his talent. As a mapmaker I listened to his ideas and implemented them accordingly. Can I get an Amen from those who worked with him?

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