Is it just me or do non-magic heroes suck? (H2)

[Bandobras Took]

If anything, Magic Heroes got weaker in 3. The increased hit points of most troops was not echoed by an increase in direct damage spells' power. A lightning bolt is far more useful in H2, most of the time. The availability of mass low-level spells means that in H3 even more than H2, you can get away with not focusing on magic or your mage guild.

[difool]

Someone was doing some tests with leveling up over at the Heroes
Library of Enlightenment...

[But alas they banned me for no discernable reason so I can't access the
site to get the linky ]

Anyway, in most games (including mine vs. the AI) DD, TP and Fly are all
banned. Like I intimated it all depends on the phase of the game and how
large the armies are: 100 Titans will just shrug off an Implosion and
devastate your Slowed armies, so past a certain point direct damage spells
aren't cost-effective (Armageddon strategies aside).

[gravyluvr]

Lightning in HOMM2 is a creature killer!

Other than that... I'd say the Might hero excels in the game. The key to operating a good might hero is to always press forward.Get your supply lines (daisy chain) going and continue to feed the main army and/or the flip side army to expand your empire quickly and efficiently.

[LordScimitar]

Heroes 3 it depends what you mean. Magic Heroes can really rule. Attack and Defense is nice, but a nice mass slow/haste/bless can just totally change a battlefield. Even moreso than Might in certain occassions. Blind/Resurrection is a great example. Or in castle seiges or when your forces are mostly composed of archers and the enemy is ground troops. A mass slow followed by a mass bless can just destroy the enemy forces even moreso than attack/defense.

Heroes 3 the heroes become blended. Crag Hack, a Might Hero, can get the full benefits of Magic while remaining a Might Hero. Or, vice versa. Solymr can get offense/ballistics/archery and become a Might Hero.

But, for best results, use both. Crag Hack with expert wisdom, and one or two of earth/air/fire magic is devestating. Especially combined with logistics, pathfinding, ballistics, and offense.

So, its harder to define heroes in Heroes 3. Especially with ways to restore MP so easily. Having lots of spellpower/knowledge isn't really INCREDIBLY important to spellcasting. Just 4 points in knowledge, easily acquired with just a lucky level up and a single artifact, and you got about 8 casting of expert level slow/haste/cure. The battle is usually over by then.

Conversely, magic heroes don't use all their MP usually during a battle. Their mass-spells don't wear out, but a single mass cure/mass dispell by a might hero dispells that. Or, a single artifact, orb of inhibition, renders Magic Heroes COMPLETELY useless. Whereas, there is no artifact that RUINS Might Heroes.

Thus, in Heroes 3, Might Heroes rule. Or, Might Heroes with just a hint of Magic. Attack/Defense is far more important then Spell Power and Knowledge.

In Heroes 2, Direct Damage spells are far more effective, levels aren't as high, spell power has a greater affect as does knowledge, so in Heroes 2, its closer. Spell casters can affect a battle by a single chain lightning, mass haste, or mass slow, or even regular lightning bolt just as much as having greater attack or defense. GENERALLY. Late game, Magic Heroes become weaker and weaker. In fact, BOTH games are like this.

So, generally, both games:
Early-Magic
Middle-Either
Late-Might

I tend to consider the strongest as whoever ends up being the most powerful. Or, the most potential if that potential is reachable. Thus, in the end...Might. Especially with that orb of inhibition in Heroes 3.

[Black Ghost]

For H2 non-magic heroes dont's suck. They have some bonuses like 2 primary skill points more than magic heroes, adv. map and army supporting abilities, far cheaper, better skilled and more numerouse armies.
Their playing style is diffrent, but it doesn't mean worse.

What's more, they have chance to get Expert Wisdom and learn all spells, but mus be carful with limited mana. As for spell effectivenes (Spell Power) there are many spells that don't require mechanic X/spell power. And in many cases even 3-4 SP is enough for non-magic heroes for duration of ex. Slow, Bless, Steel Skin, etc.
And as for Dimension Door, there are about 5 scrolls increasing Knowledge, and other artifact, let alone Magic Wells, so it's not a must to travel only by land.

Personally though, I prefer magic ones, as it's easier at the beginnig whe your weak army may defeat much stronger one; and probably at any level of the game when you can control the situation on the battlefiedl with direct DMG & control spells. Rsurrecting is also great:) especially fallen 6th. lev. units.

Additionally magic-towns troops can get boost with many artifacts increasing Att and Def., and considering stats they are even better (not including barbs +3A +1D).

All in all, I suppose that might side isn't worse than magic one. They're diffrent. Mixing them can give even awesome results and make army even more awesome (Knight with Dragons + titans)

[Gljivko a.k.a Vortex]

Some H2 non-magic heroes are extremely useful. Like barbarian in a desert (hint: desert maps like Valley of Death)

[RollingWave]

It kinda depend on the stages of the game and what spells you have.

In H2 though, if your mostly doing small army fighting than magic hero tend to be better.. as the direct dmg spells are quiet devastating until you have the upper lvls troops in significant packs... though if we are talking about large armies with high lvl creatures i would take a might hero any day... (for my experience.. you really need some magic heroes in the campaign though, as you won't have time to wait for a big army... and fending off numerous small invasions witha magic hero tend to be easier)

Then of course there are the few stratigic spells ... but you can use those without carrying your whole army... if you want to sneak up on a lightly defended castle with Door you can just carry along some of the less useful troops (like those large stacks of dwarfs and spirits)...

Of course... in H4 it's a lot easier as you can just use them both... heh.

[Black Ghost]

Of course... in H4 it's a lot easier as you can just use them both... heh.

Good conclusion. Btw. 2 magic heroes are even better than just 1

I like that in h2 two towns have typical might heroes and the rest typical magic, however, combination of might&magic heroes in each town in h4 was also great. ( the one in h3 IMO sucked a bit ;/ )

[dallasmavs41]

It all depends on map size, conditions, amount of players, and whatever else...Sure, magic heroes are usually stronger in late-game situations, but thats not going to help you any on a small map with 5 other opponents...

[Black Ghost]

@dallasmavs41
in H2 the map size plays critical role to choose hero. For magic-heroes it's important to have lightning/cold ray to survive.

However, playing lots of maps, and testing many permutations I must admit that Sorceress seems to be the most flexible hero of all. Can be really good at any stage, on any map. Probably thanks to fly/walk/shoot fast units...
And the Necromancer seems to be really weak, especially on S or M. Or maybe I can't play well Necromancer...

[csarmi]

Sorceress heroes? I think they are simply the worst. What's supoosed to be good in them?

[Black Ghost]

Sorceress heroes? I think they are simply the worst. What's supoosed to be good in them?

Hmm, in H2 the case of being the best/worst is relative. All factions are very ballanced.
My opinion about Sorceress isn't fully objective but I find that hero very good in many situations.
-0 A/D can be painful at the beginning but S. isn't fighter. Btw. her troops have nice stats so it can compensate the A/D a bit. Furthermore Artifacts and skill-up objects solve this problem in mid game.
-2/3 S/K is nice at the beginning. +10 mana than W-heroes. Later it's the only hero who can door the map without permament regeneration at M.Well
The truth is that when it comes to dd-spells she isn't as efective as W-heroes. But not all spells are dd.
-Not bad starting abilities (A.Navigation, B.Wisdom). If you have boat or shipyard you get additional wood/gold from fast exploraion of shipwrecks and sea. Otherwise only B.Wisdom isn't so bad at all (land)
-Fast army. Upg.-> very fast army. Gives you huge advantage and control on the battlefield
-specialities: archery, luck. Great boost for army's backbone. Luck doubles dmg so S. can hit realy hard.
-starting spell Bless. Quite good for Sprites and the rest of the army. S. units have one of the biggest max. dmg
-Very mobile troops during the battle (combination of shooting/flying/walking+magic is great)
-Quick town developement. On S, M you'll probably always capture W-heroes town before the get Dragons/Giants/Titans.

On L, XL if won't get dragons, titans and mages (yeah, Archery) will be soon defeated, but everything defends of course on the player's playing experience.

@Csarmi
All factions have their advantages and drawbacks. Some are strong, some fast, some better magic-oriented. I love Warlock, Knight, and others but playing S. is easier for me than ex. wizard let alone nercomancer.
I'm only interested in what don't you like in S whne you posted it's the weakest. looking forward to reply

And sorry for long, boring post

[RollingWave]

My take...

H2: It really depends, overall actually might hero is much better espically in the longer terms, as knowledge is a pretty useless skill point after 6 point or so... where as 15 defense or attack is scary... 15 knowledge is a complete waste 90% of the time..... However, since H2's might towns blows (espically knights) it kind of balance outs... .. just that you would probably still want to develope a Knight or barbarian to lead your better Sorc/Wizard/Warlock troops later in the game... The magic hero's main purpose is really just clearing the map (espically initially)

H3: The most important aspect of magic hero in H3 is probably in the campaigns, since the heroes carry over... in such cases yes magic heroes are very important, cause starting out with a hero loaded with spells is much better than one with huge attack/def when you don't have an army.

But later on it's still the same problem, in the long run when your running big stacks of high tier units around, attack/def makes the difference, as long as you have cure/dispel it's more than sufficent.

H4: well H4 is a mixed bag of course, you'll end up with both anyway, though with hindsight almost everyone agrees that the most important skill area in H4 is combat, a hero without combat = dead meat 90% of the time... magic in 1 area is typically enough and you can do without anyway (barbarian castles are still very strong... as long as you can get by the early stages in one piece ....)

[NecroSpazz]

In my opinion, heroes were quite well balanced in Heroes 2. I remember having a good warlock hero with almost all spells and black dragons and stuff + high spell power. Then I fought a knight with almost no spell power or knowledge, but he had awesome defense and attack. His master swordsmen decimated my dragons ( luckily he had no paladins/crusaders ). Yeah, sometimes it feels that might is more powerful than magic, but I just love to cast berserk or some other nice spell upon enemy unit...I personally still use more magic than might heroes.

[Kristo]

I don't think any of the heroes suck. It's just that each one requires a different style of play. Here are some examples.

1. A Knight or Barbarian can win a map like Beltway with might alone as long as you move quickly enough. Your Attack and Defense make a bigger difference early on while the magic users aren't fully developed.

2. You cannot win the final scenario of the Price of Loyalty campaign without magic. You're always facing vastly superior armies and you need any advantage you can get. And I'm talking about high level spells here. Tossing a Lightning Bolt at 150 Bone Dragons isn't going to help. You need enough Knowledge to keep casting Mass Slow, Mirror Image, Dimension Door, and Town Portal, and enough Spell Power to make Resurrect True worthwhile.

FWIW, the line between might and magic becomes blurred once you reach level 10. At that point each hero has a pretty even chance to get any of the four primary skills.

[Orfinn]

Agree with Kristo here. Neither might or magic heroes sucks. A magic hero in H2 needs from my viewpoint strong or numerous troops in the early game than the might heroes since they have zero to low attack and defence which is important in the early game.