Good Bye Nival?

[Thelonious]

or even if Equilibris got involved with H5 and made the necessary mods.

Not likely their not doing anything these days (or so it seems) Just like MMT which is also dying.

Fan based stuff is good; but it'll never make a crappy game truely great. Though it can do a LOT of good.

As for the editor of HoMM V; just gimme the HoMM IV editor please.

Though:

@ Jeff: It's hard to create a map editor which allows simple editing and advanced at the same time. Most likely you'll see an editor which allows everyone to make maps, or only some people. While I agree that the editor isn't good, I must stress that if it would have been more accessible, it would have failed to include some more advanced options and it wouldn't have been loved either.

[astral76minor]

Very true, it is hard to make a fan-based game. With H5, we'd have to remake many things in it just to approach some kind of advancement. And with all the opinions out there, I just think making a game that truly deserves a 10/10 rating is flat out impossible.



As for the H4 editor, hell yes, I loved it and did not need much advice at all! The H5 editor, though, took many hours to adapt to. But in the end, it proved to be full of many options if one has the patience.



As for a modmaking team or even a patch, cross your fingers on H5.

It may take years for a team to develop anything.



The new game out on beta called "Elemental" seems like the next best step in turn based strategy until H6.... I only wonder if it has a LAN function instead of that darn gaming server.

[jeff]

@ Jeff: It's hard to create a map editor which allows simple editing and advanced at the same time. Most likely you'll see an editor which allows everyone to make maps, or only some people. While I agree that the editor isn't good, I must stress that if it would have been more accessible, it would have failed to include some more advanced options and it wouldn't have been loved either.

First I do not accept that an editor has to be easy or powerful or such an editor would be hard, but if so, so what. The experimenting I did with the H-V editor only placing new objects on the map during the game, being able to scrap dwellings and a few minor capabilities were all I saw that really would have given the H-IV editor the features I wanted. Those should not have been that hard to incorporate by the people that was working the code. I am sure there are others and this is not an attempt to reopen the editor discussion, the mapmaking guild has had those discussions already. More to the point is, it’s not my problem to develop that type of editor, its UBI’s. If they can’t then they should hire someone who can. The fact is I do not believe the editor was ever a priority, it lengthens the shelf of the game, and I do not believe UBI really wants fan playing H-V for as long as they have been playing H-III or IV. They want them to have put it aside and buy the next game, whatever it’s called.

[Thelonious]

Ok those features only seem fair.

The thing is that everybody is more content with an easy be it with some 'more advanced' features; the hardcore mapmakers will complain that in some way they can't do everything they'd want, but they can do enough to make good maps so they won't complain that much.

You were right about 3DO and Ubi, they just didn't allow themselves enough time to make a decent mapeditor (just look at the loads and loads of disabled objects in the HoMM IV editor and crippled functions...) while it does create more durability for their product.

Back on topic though:
I don't know whether the change of company is any good. It could be a disaster for 2 reasons:
1) the new company can't make/has no experience with TBS games
2) Ubisoft doesn't communicate with the new company on all the mistakes/history of the previous games.
It could be a good thing though:
A new company with more experience could make a better game than Nival if they cooperate not only with Ubisoft but also with fans.
I thought it was great that Fabrice involved the fans in certain ways, but I don't know whether Nival ever cared to listen to him or check older games (not just for the feel, but for the art aswell).

[astral76minor]

The fact that Heroes has to be handed down the line to two companies just to keep the series going leaves me doubting whether it will be fan-based or just another reinvention. Perhaps both. I really think alot of hardcore mapmakers get neglected in the process. We end up dealing with whatever they give us. At least with 3DO we had H2-H4 and they actually progressed with the map editor and game features. Why was their a delineation in progress with H4 to H5? Alot of the gaming features in H4 were not included in H5 (i.e., certain creature abilities, spells, tactical abilities, etc). Is reinvention the way these companies simply make games? It is almost like with the movies in the theaters, most of the sequels, always degrade in quality and integral components. I say we start a Union, lol....

[Thelonious]

At least with 3DO we had H2-H4 and they actually progressed with the map editor and game features. Why was their a delineation in progress with H4 to H5? Alot of the gaming features in H4 were not included in H5 (i.e., certain creature abilities, spells, tactical abilities, etc). Is reinvention the way these companies simply make games? It is almost like with the movies in the theaters, most of the sequels, always degrade in quality and integral components.

I don't quite agree with you there: a lot of people didn't like HoMM IV, and for a good reason, it wasn't finished and I wouldn't say that is was in line with the series.

Also I do think HoMM V added some good ideas, but it lacked HoMM feeling (most possibly because the story was abandoned as well as art style) The loss of a good mapmaker didn't help to ignore that. Also the AI was criticized for lacking any intelligence at all...

[astral76minor]

I don't quite agree with you there: a lot of people didn't like HoMM IV, and for a good reason, it wasn't finished and I wouldn't say that is was in line with the series.



A lot of people did not like H5, and it was a re-creation. Heroes 4 was not a re-creation, it simply progressed into a new fashion but kept the old objects and styles of play. To further the issue, the AI in H4 was better than H5. The point is that H4 and H5 were not finished. 3D0 went downhill with H4 and Ubisoft went FURTHER down with H5.



H5 is only good for certain maps and is preferably played with humans. H4 can be played well with the AI and humans. I contend the point remains that some of the true feel of the game was lost in H5 and H4. However, we must also remember that H2 was 3D0's top-seller of 1997. None of them deserve a 10/10 rating. The true spirit and feeling of the game started with Heroes I and II and somewhat with III. Nonetheless, some fans are never content and certain games deserve a chance depending upon how they are played. I think all the games in the series deserve a chance, only upon how the maps are made and how they are played out (whether AI or human). Again, when people get serious, human players are required to play almost any of the games in the entire series.



Like it or not, the game is moving more toward the multiplayer environment. The element that must remain is turn-based strategy. Few games today feature this critical element. Without this, Heroes is lost.
Edited on Wed, Mar 18 2009, 20:18 by astral76minor

[Thelonious]

No HoMM IV certainly wasn't a recreation, but a lot of people felt HoMM IV was bad because of the story, certain gameplay elements and it not being finished and the change in style (If you look at HoMM I to III the style of the graphics is very much the same, albeit with updated colors increased resolution etc.)

Thus form a producers end it wasn't a wierd decision to go back to HoMM III because all HoMM players liked HoMM III whilest not everyone like HoMM IV.
They did take it quite far though and tried to break the copying of the game by changing various aspects of the game, not all of those changes were for the better.
In the end this resulted in a group of fans which were slightly disappointed by the game since they had lost on several fronts with HoMM V. This however isn't a real issue as gameplay can be improved as I hope they do for HoMM VI.

The thing is without the ability to make your own maps and an affective AI the game sucks. Take those away from HoMM IV and it becomes the worst of the series (and I'm not saying that because I like HoMM III over IV).

What your saying about multiplayer is just how you precive it. If Ubisoft invests in HoMM VI and the creator (who ever that is) creates a good AI then the series will turn towards singleplayer aswell. If they create a good mapmaker then that effect will be increased.

[astral76minor]

Back in 1997, Heroes 2 was relatively less complex, yet at the same time, had a unique, addictive type of gameplay which was balanced. Ever since Heroes 2, the balance of the game series has swayed a bit. Heroes 3 still kept a unique gameplay similar to H2. However, H4 and H5, in my opinion, threw off the balance of the gameplay and took away the unique spirit of the series.



Though, after many have played H5, how would they feel about playing H2 or H3? It is this phenomena which keeps CH interesting and real. I personally, don’t feel like playing H3, yet at the same time, many people on CH are making maps for it. These people, who design and playtest maps, really keep the balance and the spirit of Heroes alive regardless of any game edition in the series.



The earlier points in this post were relative to how many people had to manipulate H4 & H5 in order to make it have more of that nostalgia and spirit which the older Heroes games had. In my opinion, and to some (a fact), it is this dedicated following of mapmakers and modcrafters which gave the Heroes series a glimmering light closer to the original spirit of the game. So it possibly was left to the mapmakers, maptesters, and modcrafters to bring new light to the series (for as long as we have a following) in a world doomed by capitalism and socioeconomic upheavel by companies who could care less about creating a fan-based game.

[ThunderTitan]

>which was balanced. <

[astral76minor]

Heroes 2 was far more simple, so depending upon the map design it was balanced since they never added more creatures like in the other games in the series. The more different creatures, the more the balance gets thrown off and so forth.

[Thelonious]

Still it wasn't balanced...

Anyway, were going far off topic again.

Right now, I don't think the community cares whether there is a new developer or not, as long as HoMM VI is a good game. (and perhaps a new might and magic game gets made)

[astral76minor]

Still it wasn't balanced...



Then what Heroes game in the series was the most balanced? Perhaps the one with only six factions and the least amount of creature slots? Just like chess, it only has certain components and from a minimalist standpoint, I think H2 was the most balanced in the series when it comes to certain maps. Enough of that....



As for the future of H6, I sure hope they make a really good map editor and put the "intelligence" back in AI. Fan-based creation would help. Might and Magic would be fun if they returned back to the old turn-based battles and avoid this MMORPG junk like WOW.



For now, I'll consider Elemental - War of Magic until Heroes 6 is released. Hopefully the developer of H6 will listen to some of the fans out there.
Edited on Sat, Mar 21 2009, 20:25 by astral76minor