Heroes III VS Heroes IV

[dallasmavs41]

H4 has some ideas that are good, and some that are not. I like H3 better because it is more balanced, and dependable...but H4 has some things which make it VERY interesting.

[Kareeah Indaga]

Can you explain how choosing creature dwellings is largely useless or why you hate Heroes IV's magic system?

Easily!

The creatures in Heroes IV seem pretty balanced (equilibris)

See, that’s the key word. “Equilibris”. I generally don’t mess around with mods, and I shouldn’t have to for the game to function well. If it needs a mod to be balanced, then it wasn’t balanced in the first place. Therefore it is not balanced, and is painfully easy to exploit (Waerjak the Human Stealth-Tank vs. Bad H4 AI = complete domination of the map for months without buying a single creature).

and if a towns creatures doesn't match up with anothers it isn't always bad.

Not ALWAYS bad, perhaps, but that doesn’t make it less annoying when I want Cyclopses and the enemy town has Ogre Magi, or it has Hydras when my army is filled and I need more Black Dragons.

As for the magic system, my dislike for that is also rather simple; the only time you’re guaranteed a compatible Mage Guild is if you conquer a town of the same alignment or one close to it. Otherwise it’s generally wasted. There are also a ridiculous number of repeat spells (Illusion/Summon anything/Reanimate all have basically the same effect with the only real difference being when each can be used), and the shrines are horribly ineffective. ‘Ooo, you have Nature Magic? Great! But you don’t have EXPERT Nature Magic, so shoo!’ ‘Hi! My name is Level One Order Shrine. Sorry Mr. Lvl. 60 Archmage-with-everything-Grandmastered, you don’t know Order Magic, just like everyone else on this map, so you’re too stupid to learn my spell. Have a nice day!’

[Derek]

H3. (Although I do agree with Csarmi about this topic...it really should be the last time this goes around.)

Although I do admire the people who claim that H4 is better, living with a horrible AI like that...

Either way, Kareeah Indaga really did hit it on the head about H4. Equil, while good, cannot be judged with the actual product.

[Monte Cristo]

After a lot of thought, I voted like both the same.

[csarmi]

There is no competition here. H4 is simply much better in every aspect. Especially strategically.

[Banedon]

Yes, except that in Heroes 4 it is reasonable for one hero to defeat 1,00 Black Dragons. Rather improbable when viewed from real-life situations, if you ask me.

[wimfrits]

See, that’s the key word. “Equilibris”. I generally don’t mess around with mods, and I shouldn’t have to for the game to function well. If it needs a mod to be balanced, then it wasn’t balanced in the first place. Therefore it is not balanced, and is painfully easy to exploit (Waerjak the Human Stealth-Tank vs. Bad H4 AI = complete domination of the map for months without buying a single creature).

On Waerjak the Human Stealth-Tank: heroes are generally 'imbalanced' in campaigns, yes. This has nothing to do with the general system. It has to do with cumulative stat boosts in successive maps. Blame the mapmaker, not the game.

As for balance in the first place; I think H4 is a lot better balanced than H3. I'm sure most of the MP players will agree to that.
The fact that the bad H4 AI spoils a great deal of the SP experience has nothing to do with balance.

[ThunderTitan]

Rather improbable when viewed from real-life situations, if you ask me.

It's also quite improbable that 100 Skeletons would be able to hit 1 dragon at the same time. Even if it was one huge dragon, I doubt they'd get the chance to surround him.

[csarmi]

Yes, except that in Heroes 4 it is reasonable for one hero to defeat 1,00 Black Dragons. Rather improbable when viewed from real-life situations, if you ask me.

That's reasonable in heroes 3 too. Lots of times it's really your hero is what's winning the fight, not the creatures.

For example, I defeated 4000 azure dragons with throng of titans, zounds of grand elves, 1 arch mage, 1 ammo cart and a rust dragon and the force field spell. You think that's probable?

[Banedon]

ThunderTitan - Yup. Same like how one Magic Arrow spell could hit all the 100 Skeletons in the stack.

csarmi - In Heroes 3 your hero is casting spells. In Heroes 4 your hero goes in and kills all those 100 Black Dragons physically. There's a difference.

[csarmi]

ThunderTitan - Yup. Same like how one Magic Arrow spell could hit all the 100 Skeletons in the stack.

csarmi - In Heroes 3 your hero is casting spells. In Heroes 4 your hero goes in and kills all those 100 Black Dragons physically. There's a difference.

There is no difference in that.
Heroes IV gets lots of strategic options because of multiple heroes, however.

[chaosgorgon]

guess that most ppl that say that "superman that kill 100 dragons" havent played the game and only repeat the same stuff from others..

really is pretty hard to reach such supeheroes, maybe in a map with a bunch of trees of knowledge and lvl buffs, but in a normal standar map isnt good idea to focalise in superhero, u need a loot of buffs, need a priest, a druid, a guardian robe, and other special artifacts, im sure if the game shouldnt have such artifacts that effect would be impossible, also the dumbie AI just give u time to do it

i have killed 50 black dragons, but with town portal strategy

and even if u reach supermen it works only to neutrals

so that isnt something that happens in a usual form, also not in MP games

but i agree that the tiefh hero was overpowered against neutrals, and u can lvl easely with him stealth, but i also think that such effect is just can be fixed with a patch, nothing from other world..

btw who cares about the real life??? it is a fantasy game u know??,like these tales of the grat hero that killed 100 dragons!! hehe, nice!!, i like the heroes on BF, the idea is great, was also used in WoG, the point here is there should be limits to that, and they should implemented a better way, everything can be upgrated, the main thing is if its fun, and it is pretty fun!!

[chaosgorgon]

BTW, Age of Wonders also had that problem of the superhero, it was a nightmare for some guys, they fixed that, putting a limit to the heroes

maybe could be implemented a limit to melle combat to all heroes except might heroes, and limit of archery to all heroes except rangers, also a limit to magic skills to these two heroes, so i dont see that it was a problem that cant be fixed in a patch

[ThunderTitan]

Well that's the biggest problem with H4, the fact that there were alot of things that could have been fixed, but weren't.

[chaosgorgon]

and i dont know where is the big deal with that "holy balance", i mean warcraft didnt bornd balanced u know????, all the guys wanted to play with UD!!!

so balance can be fixed easely, nothing from other world, i still wait that Equilibris Team improve the low lvl monters stats, hope, but really these guys have done enought, so im not worried

Well that's the biggest problem with H4, the fact that there were alot of things that could have been fixed, but weren't.

coz 3DO was in their last days, we cant blame the game ideas or the designers, then why 3do was so bad??, mostly coz they didnt made the changes earlier...H3 become boring too fast, i have p`layed more H4 than H3, maybe H4 have bugs, poor AI, etc, but is more fun

if u ask for H3 players about the game , most will talk about the "renacenssie" or "monster mythology" or "greek history", talk with a H4 fanboy -not me btw- is about "hey i killed 20 blakies!!" or "heck that tiefh", or "lets combine armagedon with sanctuary", or even "how cute sounds the thunderbird when it hitted" u know...

[Banedon]

There is no difference in that.
Heroes IV gets lots of strategic options because of multiple heroes, however.

Oh, there is a difference! Read The Lord of the Rings and you'll see Gandalf repelling the Nazgul with magical powers, but you don't see Aragorn chopping all the Nazgul up with Anduril.

[chaosgorgon]

i dont see where is the problem, u know there are tales of "brave knights" that punched 50 dragons!!!, hehe and one of those mythical knights is me!!!!!!!! pretty nice!!

the heroes could be considered as semi divine beings as some popular tales, u know the tipical "only with his right hand he killed XXX soldiers", much better than being a boring gandalf saying weird words and casting shining lights

not all fantasy is tolkien...

i remember when this game was to more "cooler" nerds, now is filled by tolkien nerds, ahhh

H4 is much more strategic in BF than H3, there are lot of combos in magic strategy, units, formations, meat shields, etc...of course it was plaged by bugs, but the game is much more funnier

[Kareeah Indaga]

On Waerjak the Human Stealth-Tank: heroes are generally 'imbalanced' in campaigns, yes. This has nothing to do with the general system. It has to do with cumulative stat boosts in successive maps. Blame the mapmaker, not the game.

Wimfrits, I should not be bull-dozing through all in my path by the beginning of the second map. Especially with a level cap in place. That the system allows me to get so powerful so quickly is the fault of the system. I will grant some parts of some campaigns could have probably been improved with more time, but so could virtually everything else in the game.

[ThunderTitan]

Please, in tGS you get GM Stealth for Agraynel in the first campaign, and ur pretty much invincible from that point on. The campaigns in that exp where some of the easiest ever, mainly because of the it basicly gave you superheroes really fast.

[wimfrits]

Wimfrits, I should not be bull-dozing through all in my path by the beginning of the second map. Especially with a level cap in place. That the system allows me to get so powerful so quickly is the fault of the system. I will grant some parts of some campaigns could have probably been improved with more time, but so could virtually everything else in the game.

No, you shouldn't.

First off, consider single player maps. In most of them, there is no such thing as bulldozing heroes. That proves that the base of the game is balanced.

The fact that heroes can 'bulldoze' through some campaigns is caused primarily by the hero getting boosts in campaign maps that would fit single maps and the mapmakers not taking the effort to adjust enemy strength in future maps to match those boosts.
Imo both of these are mapmakers faults. They could increase enemy strength in the 2nd map or decrease the boosts you get in the 1st map.

I think the problem is that the mapmakers creating the original campaigns weren't fully aware of the effects of these cumulative boosts. That's an experience issue, not a game-issue.

Actually, logically, it would be strange if this were a game-issue. I mean, the game is not modified according to what the mapmakers create. Mapmakers have to make do with what the game looks like. The fact that user made campaigns can provide decent challenge implies that the original mapmakers could have done a better job.

@TT: stealth doesn't make you invincible. Much the opposite. If it were not offered for free, getting Agraynel to GM stealth would be a bad choice.
It does make her campaign a lot less exciting though.