[Poll]Strongest town excluding Conflux

[Gaidal Cain]

So, if I can start with a specific hero I may take Shakti for at least roundabout 70 Trogs, hire the second hero plus hire the level 1 out and have 120 Trogs, not to mention the dozen Harpies that are more useful than the Dwarves.

A dozen harpies? You'll only have that by starting with a nest, since Shakti won't have any. Is the nest really a better first build than a guild or a Beholder Lair?

(I do agree with the rest of your analysis, BTW).

[Jolly Joker]

Nah, sorry, you got me there. A bad case of Harpy doubling.

[darknessfood]

Strongest town for me is Tower, but to start with and build u really quick, you can go for Stronghold...

[Banedon]

"Usually I play on Hard or even Expert Difficulty and pick my starting hero; additionally some heroes are banned, like Gunnar, for example, and Kyrre as well, obviously.
Under these rules I think that Rampart has the better 1st day creeping force, and additionally Dungeon has no exceptional hero remaining, only a couple of good ones."

Succinct way of putting it - and yes, that's what I think.

So, remember, that was the point. If you don't doctor a map without sulfur and ore to specifically disable Dungeon resource-wise, with Dungeon there is always a play for victory.

With every race there is always a play for victory. If you know picking a particular race means you lose, why pick it? Although there are situations when Dungeon is seriously crippled (Impossible Difficulty -> really impossible to build Pillar of Eyes).

I know some players really like Dungeon, but it simply isn't my style. Unit offense is low, speed is low too and basically Rampart, Castle, Inferno and Stronghold is much more suited to my speed-based style.

I never liked unit specialists. Since sometimes the respective unit may die and the specialty is wasted. Let's put this aside, still I prefer Isra, since with her I'll have around (more than) twice the skeletons with any other hero (except Vidomina). I think that that is better than having skeletons giving 120-150% of their skills.

I don't think you'll get twice as many Skeletons - Necromancy specialization does not help that much. And of course the +1 speed to Skeletons can have a huge difference.

Unit specialists are great. If the unit they specialize in are important ones to a race (Thunderbirds, Elves, etc) and they don't come with terrible secondary skills (that means no Shiva, so no Thunderbirds either) they make for, in my opinion, the best starting hero pick if Logistics specialists disabled. To match their usefulness you need to specialize in an exceptional secondary attribute or spell - Armorer or Offense or Chain Lightning.

[Jolly Joker]

"Usually I play on Hard or even Expert Difficulty and pick my starting hero; additionally some heroes are banned, like Gunnar, for example, and Kyrre as well, obviously.
Under these rules I think that Rampart has the better 1st day creeping force, and additionally Dungeon has no exceptional hero remaining, only a couple of good ones."

Succinct way of putting it - and yes, that's what I think.

Since we agree here, you are not really making a point against mine, because my point is that while in a specific situation you may found a town better suited for it than dungeon, but no matter the situation Dungeon will be somewhere in the front row. Coming in with a special case is no point against it. You'd have to find a situation where Dungeon would really suck.

With every race there is always a play for victory. If you know picking a particular race means you lose, why pick it? Although there are situations when Dungeon is seriously crippled (Impossible Difficulty -> really impossible to build Pillar of Eyes).

It happens - quite often actually, when *I* play (or played; I don't play 3 anymore at this point - that the map is an unknown thing, so you don't know beforehand what it will be except size. For example, if you play Fortress on a large map with just normal wood against Necropolis, while you are right that there is always hope there is no realistic play for victory either.
Play with Necropolis and find undead or Elemental stacks guarding key points and you need a REALLY large map you make up for that.
And so on.
Now, for impossible difficulty - that's why the starting force of the heroes is important for.

I know some players really like Dungeon, but it simply isn't my style. Unit offense is low, speed is low too and basically Rampart, Castle, Inferno and Stronghold is much more suited to my speed-based style.

You'd not underestimate Necro, just because it's not your style, would you?

[Muszka]

If you know picking a particular race means you lose, why pick it? Although there are situations when Dungeon is seriously crippled (Impossible Difficulty -> really impossible to build Pillar of Eyes).

Trust with me one thing, I played many games with Dungeon on impossible, and never noticed this.

I don't think you'll get twice as many Skeletons - Necromancy specialization does not help that much. And of course the +1 speed to Skeletons can have a huge difference.

Actually yes, it gives that much. I played Isra anytime I could with Necro. A lvl 20 Isra gives around +80% Skeletons (due to the necromancy amplifier). The +1 speed is great, but that's not enough for me.

[Jolly Joker]

Agree with Muszka here.

[pikeman93]

Sorry for bumping an old thread.

BTW, since I've never played multiplayer, a lot of my rankings would go towards how well they can clear maps as well as the first few weeks.

My favourite town? Rampart. They can clear even level 6 stacks in week one. One of the best rushers as well. And you can't go wrong with a level 5 horde building. Most cost effective unit in the game, and it's only a lvl 3 unit. Rampart does have its weaknesses though. If you get careless and the enemy wipes out or even blocks your elf stacks, what else can you use as an offensive force? Lvl 6 and 7 units are only mediocre, level 2 and 5 units are only there to protect your elves, silver pegasus are fast, but very fragile, and master centaurs are good, but they're only a lvl 1 unit. So as long as you keep your elves alive, you're golden.

Castle - great units, but really slow buildup. You can either get cavaliers OR angels OR 24 griffins on week 2. Cavaliers require too much wood, angels require too much gold, and if you want to go for griffins, well, you might not be able to clear high level stacks. Extremely powerful once you have all the units though. However, aside from archangels, your second highest unit speed is 9.

Tower - best shooters in the game, but heroes aren't that good, and requires a lot of resources before you can get a decent fighting force. If resources are rare you'll be relying on master gremlins for quite a while. However, the only level 7 shooter, and high HP on a shooter is very important.

Inferno - 6 efreet sultans in week 2 means that you can clear the majority of the map. Other than that, their non-upgraded units are probably the best in the game. Regular gogs, efreets, and devils can make a decent army. Once upgraded though, they fall behind, with the exception of cerebri. In long games, pit lords and demons make inferno like a mini-Necropolis.

Necropolis - Vampire lords PWN. That is all. Probably one of the most invincible non-lvl 7 units in the game. Opponent needs to bring elemental or non-living units in order to deal with VL's. However, the highest speed beside ghost dragons is only 9, and if you don't upgrade your bone dragons, any army with a unit with a speed higher than 9 and mass slow can make you a sitting duck. Worse yet, you're basically upgrading the worst level 7 unit in the game.

Stronghold - Probably my second favourite due to strong units that are available right off the bat, but I'm turned off by the ridiculous resource costs. In a map with only ONE sawmill and ore pit on my side I can only make 2-3 dwellings on first week then I'll have to build a resource silo. Lack of lvl 4 and 5 mage guilds kind of hurt, but it won't really be a problem if I capture another town. Excellent heroes as well. Somewhat too dependent on thunderbirds though.

Dungeon - In a way this is like a mini-Rampart. No uber-strong units like grand elves, but also no uber-weak units like dendroid soldiers (at least, in a battle). Scorpicores IMO are actually quite decent; speed 11 allows them to take care of shooters well. The main problem is what to do before they get red dragons - they have to spend a significant amount of gold in order to afford a decent fighting force to clear the stacks, which is bad because they're also resource dependent. However, best heroes in the game, hands down.

Fortress - Probably my least favourite. Like Stronghold, they are too resource dependent and lack lvl 4 and 5 guilds, but unlike Stronghold they don't really have a decent force to clear stacks and to rush the opponent. Mighty gorgons are only good with killing level 6-7 creatures so I guess fortress would rule on maps with a lot of dragon utopias or frozen cliffs. But on maps without those buildings fortress would fall behind. Great might heroes though, but I would still prefer offense over defense. Dragonflies may be fast and all, but they crumble very quickly, especially when facing strong stacks.

Last but not least Conflux. Yes I know it's horribly broken, but that's why I'm playing UndeadHalfOrc's patch. I have to say though, with phoenixes being nerfed to 2 per week I find myself relying on magic elementals most of the time. They are amazing, yes even better than naga queens. Great might heroes with unique specialities, and magic heroes starting with magic schools. The problem is that most of the units are quite useless without the upgrade.

[Salamandre]

Heh, just reading previous JJ posts where he is in awe for Dungeon and tries to convince everyone. And today the dungeon has the worse loss statistics, among with tower.

[Panda Tar]

Just proves that what we most like not always is what's really best.

I liked Rampart and then Tower best. I had better games with them, but I don't really think they're the best. Never played with Conflux either.

[Banedon]

@pikeman93 -

You can't be relying on Grand Elves the whole game as Rampart. Yes they are superb units and yes, they tend to be reasonably important later into the game, but eventually they will get outclassed. Gold Dragons are excellent level 7s; not as good as some perhaps but still very dangerous. War Unicorns are also good. Not the best level 6 unit around, but solid.

In my play Castle should not go for Griffins, because Marksmen + Crusaders are already enough. Griffins (and Cavaliers, for that matter) are out of the TeCH tree, and you're better off shooting for Angels. Once you get your Angels then yeah go ahead, but get Angels first.

With Inferno, it does not matter if Cerberi do not fall behind. Compared to Devils and such they aren't important. Inferno's strength comes from the 2-punch core of Efreets and Devils, who are very fast and will usually give them the spell initiative. The other big advantage is mid-game dominance. Inferno can dominate most other armies in the second week, and hopefully it got some kind of advantage there.

Strange you did not mention Skeletons for Necropolis, because that is its best unit. With a hero like Galthran, Isra or Vidomina and aggressive skeleton farm, Necropolis will have hundreds or thousands of Skeletons later in the game. They can't be blinded as well, which is a very powerful trait. Vampire Lords on the other hand are less relevant. They don't deal a lot of damage, and they are easily killed with focus fire.

Stronghold can usually get level 7s in the first week. No Cyclopses maybe, but Behemoths more than compensate. Hiring them is a different matter of course but you don't have to get all your Behemoths into play at once, only when you meet your opponent ...

It's been a long, long time since I last played Conflux (like I said, after playing it a couple of times and deciding it's grossly overpowered, I've never used it again) but iirc the Firebirds are very cheap to get so that should be the priority. Early-game it's of course Sprites + Storm elementals, but after that shoot for the level 7s ASAP.

[pikeman93]

^^With necropolis, I agree that skeletons are very strong, but early on, they're nothing but deadweight (no pun intended). Unless you have animate dead, a strong neutral stack with speed higher than 4 (aka pretty much everything) will guarantee a first strike on the skellies, knocking out 5-20 in the first turn. And then after when you do necromancy to produce skellies, they kind of cancel each other out. It's better to have two heroes; one to fight all stacks with vampire lords, and the other to store all the skellies you produced.

You need advanced haste in order for skeletons to be strong, and haste is very difficult to get in a necropolis mage guild. Same with air magic and death knights. For this reason IMO Galthran is much better than Isra and Vidomina; I'd rather have 50% less skeletons that can get more first strikes. And also better stats. If you're Galthran, with mass haste, your skeleton warriors reach a speed of 11, reaching the speed of thunderbirds.


As for Castle, what if you're in a resource poor map where it's next to impossible to build angels or cavaliers on the first week? Then your next best option is to go for 24 royal griffins on the second week. The problem with the marksmen + crusader combo is that neutral stacks of archers can pwn you very badly. And IMO thunderbirds are more important than behemoths for stronghold, but both of them make a good army and can take on pretty much any neutral stack without losses. And I only use cerebri for Inferno if I couldn't get devils on the first week; cerebri are like a mini-devil.

[Banedon]

It's been a long, long time since I last played Conflux (like I said, after playing it a couple of times and deciding it's grossly overpowered, I've never used it again) but iirc the Firebirds are very cheap to get so that should be the priority. Early-game it's of course Sprites + Storm elementals, but after that shoot for the level 7s ASAP.

Lol, I tried Conflux in a PvAI map again, just to refresh my memory. Turns out the Pyre, although very reachable week 1, requires you to build all the other dwellings first. That makes the resource demand tough, but it's still doable. It's also extremely unfair. My game I had 5 Firebirds + ~120 Sprites at the start of week 2, which other race can take on that kind of army!? You don't even need the shooters, you can fodder almost everything and race up to the level 7s with minimum hassle. It could be that I played a rich map, but this kind of experience is ... jarring.

Anyway: you can protect your Skeletons by splitting them into 1-unit stacks, using those to surround your main Skeleton stack. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. Teleport is really strong with the Skeletons, although Haste is excellent as well. As for Castle, even if you can't get Angels or Cavaliers in the first week, you can (should) go for them in the second. There's no doubting neutral ranged stacks are tough to beat, but you could get Tactics to mitigate that factor. Thunderbirds are great, but Rocs do OK as well and you really should be getting Behemoths in week 1. You need to stockpile them. Inferno no Devils = no problem, screw the Cerberi and get the Efreet Sultans! The Fire Lake can be achieved easily week 1 even on Expert difficulty, and although you may not manage Castle + Fire Lake, you should still be able to field at least 4, usually 5, Efreet Sultans by day 8. That should be more than enough to thrash every neutral stack on the map.

[Korbac]

It's also extremely unfair. My game I had 5 Firebirds + ~120 Sprites at the start of week 2, which other race can take on that kind of army!?

The game is more balanced at Expert and Impossible difficulty settings, because that's where the resource requirements kick in. I guess you should not be talking about fairness on lower difficulty levels

[Pitsu]

The game is more balanced at Expert and Impossible difficulty settings, because that's where the resource requirements kick in. I guess you should not be talking about fairness on lower difficulty levels

"The resource requirements kicking in" largely means that random treasures on map become more important. Since they are hard to control, it is harder to compare town performances and in multiplayer impossible setting are rarely used, because too much luck involved. Now if you look at the cost of buildings, conflux has cheap base dwellings and strong low level units...

[Korbac]

"The resource requirements kicking in" largely means that random treasures on map become more important. Since they are hard to control, it is harder to compare town performances and in multiplayer impossible setting are rarely used, because too much luck involved. Now if you look at the cost of buildings, conflux has cheap base dwellings and strong low level units...

I think the luck factor evens out a game. For example if you compare Dungeon and Fortress: obviously Dungeon has a better troop line-up, but on impossible they won't be building up their town so fast, because they need to build the pillar of eyes (1 of each precious resource). The Fortress on the other hand will be building up their town much faster, because the dwellings&units are cheaper, but worse.

[Bandobras Took]

in multiplayer impossible setting are rarely used

Interesting. Which means data based on multiplayer is inherently skewed because settings are deliberately chosen to cover the weakness of the more resource-dependent town types.

[Banedon]

I was playing on Expert ...

Granted, I played the map Caught In The Middle, which is relatively resource-rich (because of the odds), but I did make it to the second week with like 10k gold to spare in a map where there aren't any easily-taken second towns. Had something 4 heroes active, too.

[Mirez]

I like rampart, especially when you get multiple towns. Dwarf treasury allows you to buy armies you wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.

[Arret]

in multiplayer impossible setting are rarely used

Interesting. Which means data based on multiplayer is inherently skewed because settings are deliberately chosen to cover the weakness of the more resource-dependent town types.

I was thinking this too. Aside from tower (since even getting mages is a royal pain), impossible feels pretty well balanced as long as you start with a 350 gold specialty hero.