H3: Fav Lvl2 critter.

[Nucleon]

Yes I would prefer such a unit, but I do not think Lizard Warriors are almost as good at attacking.

Storm Elementals are

Yes, but Storm Elementals are "false" 2nd llvl units; In fact, they're more like 3-4 lvls troop in regard to capacities, production and costs, as are all basic Elementals.

[Banedon]

I guess that you still haven't your Armageddon Blade CD ok? Marksmen aren't so strong units, especially when they aren't fighting on theirs native terrain. In this case they will possibly fail to L.W., and they are also weaker then comparative number of S.E.. They may also failed easily to O.G when fight on snow etc.... look like you overestimated them a litte wink

Well I do have an Armageddon's Blade CD, but it's terribly scratched and besides it wouldn't be nice to install it, since the best way to abstain from playing Conflux is not to have that choice But I have installed the latest patch on Restoration of Erathia, and I believe that evens things.

As Nucleon "said", He is ready to take losses if what He inflicted on the ennemy is worth it. In this specific, Forteress case, Dragonflies are used as soon as they can to weaken the oppo's powerful units, while, say, the Greater Basiliks skip-and-strike troops just like the Marksmen, irritant on offense but puny on defense.

If so, I too would trade my 250 Marksmen for your 250 Dragon Flies.

And then comes the Hydras. A skip-and-strike technique puts them exactly next to your shooting stacks, nullifying all your ranged attacks.

The only way the Hydras can do so is via the spell Teleport - remember, Castle's units move much faster than Fortress's.

I agree that Castle has many good troops, a good thing since the Marsmen are so fragile. However, because of their relative efficiency in attack, Castle players are tempted to bring them in big battles, where they often prone their frailty. That's not the same thing with the much maligned Lizard Warriors.

Of course we bring them to big battles. What else do we bring? If they do no more than attract attacks, they have already contributed to our cause.

Nucleon "said"; With a skip-and-strike technique. 7 is the magic number to do that. 6, if the target is a two-hex creature. Thus, in Forteress'case, Greater Basiliks are able to cross the battlefield to strike at shooters.

It does not work. Greater Basiliks cannot cross the battlefield in one turn.

Banedon's got a point here; A good army checks out for some of its member's weaker points. However, if the said troops is to be used as bait, Nucleon would prefer it to be a first lvl troop, like Master Grems, Gobs and Imps.

If you're using weak creatures, I don't think your opponent will accept the bait. Marksmen are good because if your opponent does not attack them, he'd suffer big damage, but if he does, he'd also take pain.

Lizard Warriors are slower, but they have the same attack skill, and deal a damage that can go up to 5, while the Marksmen's can reach 2x 3 in damage. That's barely one more.

If I remember correctly Marksmen have a damage of 2-3. Given the same attack skill, Lizard Warriors are more likely to deal 3.5 damage, while Marksmen deal 2.5x2 = 5 damage, which is obviously greater.

Yes, but Storm Elementals are "false" 2nd llvl units; In fact, they're more like 3-4 lvls troop in regard to capacities, production and costs, as are all basic Elementals.

I agree. If I had to choose between two equal stacks of Storm Elementals and Marksmen, I'd be sorely tempted to take the Storm Elementals - but the Marksmen stack is just as good.

[Nucleon]

The only way the Hydras can do so is via the spell Teleport - remember, Castle's units move much faster than Fortress's.

(...) It does not work. Greater Basiliks cannot cross the battlefield in one turn.

Nucleon must have been unclear: They wait (skip), take the shot, then go, then next turn arrive, then they're there. The objective with this is to take a ranged shot at half damage, which works if the said unit's speed is superior to the shooter's (again, 7 in this case), because the later cannot do the same -skip, that is is, to beneficiate from the advancing unit's coming into range.

It is an efficient tactic with Forteress troops, which have high defenses to compensate for the loss of initiative.

Of course we bring them to big battles. What else do we bring? If they do no more than attract attacks, they have already contributed to our cause.

Honestly, If you have encountered shooting/fast neutrals before the "big one", chances are your stack of Marksmen will be slimmer than the opposite Lizard Warriors, thus not so much of a threat. Taking them in this case uses up a precious place in your final battle army.

If you're using weak creatures, I don't think your opponent will accept the bait. Marksmen are good because if your opponent does not attack them, he'd suffer big damage, but if he does, he'd also take pain.

First, the AI likes to target weakies and second, a little "haste" can make your chosen bait efficient enough to fill its role. From onehand you tell Nucleon how much you value the Marksmen, and on the other hand you salute their bait value. Nucleon is somewhat puzzled.

If I remember correctly Marksmen have a damage of 2-3. Given the same attack skill, Lizard Warriors are more likely to deal 3.5 damage, while Marksmen deal 2.5x2 = 5 damage, which is obviously greater.

Nucleon gracefully grants the point. However, as the game nears the middle, both faction are sufficiently assured to get a mass "bless" that the offensive difference becomes trifle, really...

...Well, it would be, but actually, the Lizwars would be doing more damage anyway, because it is likely at this point that more would have survived.

[Banedon]

Nucleon must have been unclear: They wait (skip), take the shot, then go, then next turn arrive, then they're there. The objective with this is to take a ranged shot at half damage, which works if the said unit's speed is superior to the shooter's (again, 7 in this case), because the later cannot do the same -skip, that is is, to beneficiate from the advancing unit's coming into range.

Equally, you can expect an opposing human intelligence to put a unit between the unit in question (say, Greater Basiliks), thus getting one shot at half damage and one shot at full damage.

Honestly, If you have encountered shooting/fast neutrals before the "big one", chances are your stack of Marksmen will be slimmer than the opposite Lizard Warriors, thus not so much of a threat. Taking them in this case uses up a precious place in your final battle army.

Indeed, it would be. But the difference will not be too significant (Archangels can cast Resurrect, after all). If I do not take them to the final battle, what should I bring? Nothing?

First, the AI likes to target weakies and second, a little "haste" can make your chosen bait efficient enough to fill its role. From onehand you tell Nucleon how much you value the Marksmen, and on the other hand you salute their bait value. Nucleon is somewhat puzzled. confused

The AI and human intelligence are two vastly different things, and you should never consider battles against the AI (which tend to be very simple). Haste doesn't help. The most valuable kind of creature on the battlefield are those that deal great damage, and Haste does not help that.

I should explain what I feel about Marksmen. I feel Marksmen are very powerful, dealing great ranged damage, and therefore they are valuable. The fact that they are frail is definitely a worry - but not too great a worry, because exploiting it will not be easy. I don't use them because they are a bait - I use them because if my opponent intends to neutralize this (quite great) threat, he / she must commit something to death.

[Nucleon]

Equally, you can expect an opposing human intelligence to put a unit between the unit in question (say, Greater Basiliks), thus getting one shot at half damage and one shot at full damage.

Wrong; If the said unit is speed seven, it takes only one shot from Marksmen. As soon as there is an opening, they're done for.

Indeed, it would be. But the difference will not be too significant (Archangels can cast Resurrect, after all). If I do not take them to the final battle, what should I bring? Nothing?

Archangels can also ressurect a much more useful troop, like Royal Griffins and Crusaders. That's no point anyway; Resurected Marksmen are an Archangel feature, not a Marksmen one.

What else to bring in the Marksmen's place? How about a second stack of Archangels, to make better use of their resurecting hability?

The AI and human intelligence are two vastly different things, and you should never consider battles against the AI (which tend to be very simple). Haste doesn't help. The most valuable kind of creature on the battlefield are those that deal great damage, and Haste does not help that.

You can't ignore the AI, even in multiplayer. He still plays the neutrals, and some neutrals can be pretty tough. And it appears that the AI just loves shooting/tearing apart Imps, Trogs and Marksmen.

I should explain what I feel about Marksmen. I feel Marksmen are very powerful, dealing great ranged damage, and therefore they are valuable. The fact that they are frail is definitely a worry - but not too great a worry, because exploiting it will not be easy. I don't use them because they are a bait - I use them because if my opponent intends to neutralize this (quite great) threat, he / she must commit something to death.

Why attacking the Marksmen should be more deadly to the attacker than attacking anything else? Even attacking something (anything) adjacent to them divide their offense by four, making them about as useful as Pissants.

First month troops, He persists. Obsolete after that, althought less than Gogs and Zombies, Nucleon concedes.

[Banedon]

Wrong; If the said unit is speed seven, it takes only one shot from Marksmen. As soon as there is an opening, they're done for.

There won't be an opening.

Archangels can also ressurect a much more useful troop, like Royal Griffins and Crusaders. That's no point anyway; Resurected Marksmen are an Archangel feature, not a Marksmen one.

What else to bring in the Marksmen's place? How about a second stack of Archangels, to make better use of their resurecting hability?

The Royal Griffins and Crusaders die much less often. In fact, they don't die at all (except in major battles).

As for the second stack of Archangels, where are you going to get them? Also, giving up 250 Marksmen for a fight is a serious loss.

You can't ignore the AI, even in multiplayer. He still plays the neutrals, and some neutrals can be pretty tough. And it appears that the AI just loves shooting/tearing apart Imps, Trogs and Marksmen.

But you can manipulate the AI. csarmi would tell you how.

Why attacking the Marksmen should be more deadly to the attacker than attacking anything else? Even attacking something (anything) adjacent to them divide their offense by four, making them about as useful as Pissants.

The Marksmen would wait then, the Crusaders and Royal Griffins do their work, and then the Marksmen would be free to shoot again.

First month troops, He persists. Obsolete after that, althought less than Gogs and Zombies, Nucleon concedes.

I think it depends on what's the definition of "obsolete". No level 2 unit is gamebreaking after lvl 7s are in play, anyway.

[wimfrits]

No level 2 unit is gamebreaking after lvl 7s are in play, anyway.

That’s an important point imo.
1. neither marksmen nor lizard warriors will be forces to reckon with.
2. focusing attack on either of these units is a disadvantage.
3. once an attack is focused on these units, the unit is out of the game immediately.

Since marksmen do more damage, marksmen will sooner be a target than lizard warriors, so marksmen logically are more significant units in an end-fight.

[Gaidal Cain]

Nucleon gracefully grants the point. However, as the game nears the middle, both faction are sufficiently assured to get a mass "bless" that the offensive difference becomes trifle, really...

...Well, it would be, but actually, the Lizwars would be doing more damage anyway, because it is likely at this point that more would have survived.

While it's true that there most likely would be more lizards than marksmen at this point (Archangels take a while to build up after all, and early in the game, a stack of fast units could kill off rather many marksmen), the fact that the marksmen has double shot again works in their favour: they'd be doing 8 damage a shot when compared to the Lizards' 6.

[wimfrits]

While it's true that there most likely would be more lizards than marksmen at this point

Depends on the player really.
If a player is good in assessing the outcome of early battles, and he realizes he will lose a lot of marksmen in this fight; then naturally he will not use the marksmen in this fight.

So it's a bit of a contradiction.

[Gaidal Cain]

Considering that they have the same growth (meaning: no number advantage for either side to begin with), the fact that the lizardmen are more durable and that marksmen tends to be targeted more often, I don't think it's unfair to say that the Fortress player would have more lizardmen at his disposal than the castle player will have marksmen.

[wimfrits]

Again, if marksmen will be significantly targeted, you won't bring them in a fight.
Usually however, there are enough ways to prevent the marksmen from being targeted (H3 combat AI = not that smart).

So I disagree. The castle player will not lose a significant amount of marksmen if he knows what he's doing.

[Banedon]

wimfrits we see eye-to-eye That's exactly how I feel too. The Castle player will lose some Marksmen here and there, but not enough for it to be really significant.

[Pitsu]

If I have to chose a lvl2 monster for solo, storm elementals and lizards would be the best I think. If I can chose lvl2 WITH supporting troops, marksmen have a chance.

[Kristo]

Vote Storm Elementals. They're even better than their level three counterparts, Ice Elementals. Hmm, maybe they shouldn't be level two. Among "normal" level two units, I'd have to go with Marksmen as my favorite.

[Nucleon]

There won't be an opening.

There's always an opening, unless your whole army stays prone for all of the fight. One attack, ranged or melee, or even a damaging spell will find its way.

The Royal Griffins and Crusaders die much less often. In fact, they don't die at all (except in major battles).

None of these dies, ever? You tell Nucleon that you can fight a horde of, say, Thunderbirds and only Pikemen dies, if at all, before the Archangels' ressurect?

As for the second stack of Archangels, where are you going to get them?

By splitting your main one, of course.

The Marksmen would wait then, the Crusaders and Royal Griffins do their work, and then the Marksmen would be free to shoot again.

Nucleon's point is; No matter wich army you use, you've got to attack anyway, at one point or another. If a Forteress players send its Hydras near your shooters and their defenders, the Hydras will be attacked, of course; the Forteress players expects it, whishes for it. And if all your Marskmen' defenders dies to protect them, well, they died to protect a troops whose value is lesser than their own! Plus, the fight is thusly being brought up to your side of the Battlefield. Tell Nucleon again; why would this prove detrimental to the Marksmen's ennemy?

I think it depends on what's the definition of "obsolete". No level 2 unit is gamebreaking after lvl 7s are in play, anyway.

Obsolete as in "not tough enough". About every lvl2 in H3 have a bigger survivability factor than the Marksmen. Exemples include H-Hags, Lizard Warriors, of course, Battle Dwarves and obsidian Gargoyles, often present en masse and significant in later battles.

Again, if marksmen will be significantly targeted, you won't bring them in a fight.

Yes, that's quite contradictory. Marksmen should be used a lot in the early stages of the game, then their survivors should be kept in defense in one of your towns as Royal Griffins, Archangels and Monks take on their role.

So I disagree. The castle player will not lose a significant amount of marksmen if he knows what he's doing.

And if he never encounters ennemies with speed of seven or who can shoot. And please do not bring Mass Slows and Mass Hastes and Expert Tactics and Armorers and ressurecting Archangels that early in the game to drown out that fact.

the fact that the marksmen has double shot again works in their favour: they'd be doing 8 damage a shot when compared to the Lizards' 6.

Marksmen do 2x (2-3), in a ranged attack, almost nothing in melee. Lizard Warriors do 2-5 ranged damage, halfed in melee.

[Pitsu]

the fact that the marksmen has double shot again works in their favour: they'd be doing 8 damage a shot when compared to the Lizards' 6.

Marksmen do 2x (2-3), in a ranged attack, almost nothing in melee. Lizard Warriors do 2-5 ranged damage, halfed in melee.

He was refering to mass-bless situation. Expert bless gives +1 to damage, so blessed marksmen do 2x4 and lizardwarriors 6 damage.

[wimfrits]

Again, if marksmen will be significantly targeted, you won't bring them in a fight.

Yes, that's quite contradictory. Marksmen should be used a lot in the early stages of the game, then their survivors should be kept in defense in one of your towns as Royal Griffins, Archangels and Monks take on their role.

So I disagree. The castle player will not lose a significant amount of marksmen if he knows what he's doing.

And if he never encounters ennemies with speed of seven or who can shoot. And please do not bring Mass Slows and Mass Hastes and Expert Tactics and Armorers and ressurecting Archangels that early in the game to drown out that fact.

No, you're not getting it.
Example:
You have 50 marksmen, 50 halberdiers, 10 royal griffins.
You are about to attack stack X. Before you attack, you determine how much casualties you would take if you play in the best possible way.
You estimate that you will lose between 20 and 30 marksmen.
Now, will you engage stack X with the marksmen?
....
Ofcourse you will not!!!
You will engage stack X with only the halberdiers and the griffins. Or you will not engage stack X at all.

So the argument that the Castle player will lose many marksmen is a contradiction, because the Castle player will not use marksmen if he will lose a significant amount of them!

[Pitsu]

Marksmen are more useful if you know how to exploit the AI, you have some support troops to deal with melee encounters and only a few battles along the way are challenging. If you should explore an unpredictable world without knowing if your main/only stack (which is lvl 2 stack) has to survive 10 or 110 battles and what kind of opponents you encounter, i would not put my money on marksmen.

Marksmen vs Lizardwarriors is kind of "most exploitable kickass unit" vs "be ready for everything" discussion.

[Nucleon]

He was refering to mass-bless situation. Expert bless gives +1 to damage, so blessed marksmen do 2x4 and lizardwarriors 6 damage.

Nucleon's mistake.

You have 50 marksmen, 50 halberdiers, 10 royal griffins.
You are about to attack stack X. Before you attack, you determine how much casualties you would take if you play in the best possible way.
You estimate that you will lose between 20 and 30 marksmen.
Now, will you engage stack X with the marksmen?
....
Ofcourse you will not!!!
You will engage stack X with only the halberdiers and the griffins. Or you will not engage stack X at all.

If stack "X" poses a danger to an army including Marksmen, chances are it will pose a greater danger to that same army minus the Marksmen. In that case, you should bite the bullet and accept the losses, if said stack is protecting something needed. That's the name of the game.

So the argument that the Castle player will lose many marksmen is a contradiction, because the Castle player will not use marksmen if he will lose a significant amount of them!

You think that the Castle player should priviledge Marksmen survival over immediate progression? That's just a second lvl troop, do they really have to dictate your war path?

[Nucleon]

Marksmen vs Lizardwarriors is kind of "most exploitable kickass unit" vs "be ready for everything" discussion.

It's all coming down to; Yes, the Marksmen are a bit "most exploitable kickass unit" over the Lizard Warriors, whereas the later are a lot more "ready for everything" than Marksmen.

And cheaper, too.