Best level 4 spell

[Metathron]

Summon Elementals is the worst, this spell really needs some reworking. It should summon more elementals and/or give the caster the opportunity to choose where they will be summoned.

As for the best, I'm going with Blindness, followed by Summon Hive.

[parcaleste]

I really don't know with this Divine Vengeance...

Or else it seems to me that Frenzy works better than Blind in a lot of cases... And yes, Summon Hive is awesome! (esp abusing HUGE stacks of neutrals ).

[Metathron]

Two people already have voted for Summon Elementals?

[Mirez]

divine vengance ftw
it's just to OP

[parcaleste]

Two people already have voted for Summon Elementals?

Seriously, does someone EVER use this spell or even having thoughts of using it?

[danhvo]

Seriously, does someone EVER use this spell or even having thoughts of using it?

I agree that the spell could use some improvement. For example, at Basic level, you should be able to choose between 2 elementals applicable to your terrain. At Advanced level, you get another choice, and at Expert level, you can choose any type of elementals.

But even in the current state, the spell isn't as useless as you make it sound. I definitely use it sometimes, especially if my hero wears the elemental waistband. A certain perk also makes this spell a lot more powerful.

[tb5841]

I use this spell. If it wasn't for the chance of summoning Earth Elementals it would be on a par with the other L4 spells. And if you do summon Earth Elementals, Teleport can then make them very useful, as they are a brilliant defensive unit.

Fire Warriors also boosts this a lot, and now that every team can get it...

However, I don't understand how anyone can vote for anything but Divine Vengeance here. This spell needs fixing so much.

[danhvo]

However, I don't understand how anyone can vote for anything but Divine Vengeance here. This spell needs fixing so much.

Then perhaps it's not as broken as some of you may think.

For me, this is a spell that I would hate seeing used against me. But it's not a spell I would use so much. For the spell to be effective, a lot of my own troops would have to die first. If I have to resort to this spell, chances are I don't have much of an army left even if I end up winning the battle. I only want to engage in that kind of battle once, at the end, when I don't care about troop preservation.

If "best spell" is based on how often I tend to use the spell, then this spell would definitely not get my vote.

[gzork]

Frenzy, I think, is my favorite. Depending on the situation it's kind of like Puppet Master, but with more things dying.

Summon Elementals is underrated, assuming you have the talent that gives you fire elementals.

[konfeta]

Formula for Implosion on a hero with Expert Destruction Magic.

40+40*Power

Let's assume a Warlock who has Empowered Spells, Warlock's luck, and his Ultimate with a pair of Dungeon Cities (10% + 10% + 30% doubled; basically +100% damage when it triggers).

That's making a spell do 1.5 (Empower) * 2 (Lucky) * 2(Chain). Now, let's assume the said Warlock has reasonably pumped spell power. Level 30, with roughly half of level ups giving spell power, and him accumulating, let's say, 15 spell power from map objects and artifacts (generous).

That's 33 spell power. So all of that adds up to 8160 damage in a single blast on a luck roll and elemental chains triggering. Pretty nice smash for a Warlock that ate his vegetables, got good skill progression, went to college, and found nice shinies, right?

But let's be realistic. An average Warlock will not get all these factors on every implosion cast. His Implosion will range from 2000 (empowered) to 8000 (both luck roll and chain), so 5000 average. If he is lucky, he will get +50% earth damage slippers, but his enemy is just as likely to have an artifact or skills that will counteract that.




Formula for Divine Vengeance on a hero with Expert Light Magic. F is the square root of "frags". A "frag" is creature * tier (so a level 1 creature gives 1 "frag", a level 7 gives 7 "frags").

F*(60+6*Power)


A Knight or Ranger who went through the same adventure as the Warlock would have 5 natural power by level 30, and let's say 10 from map objects/artifacts. So 15 power.

Let's say the big bad enemy unit was maneuvered to inflict heavy casualties on your army while you were busy destroying other scary enemies. Basically, you got outplayed and he is ahead of you by one very nasty stack.

Let's assume 300 tier 1 kills, 100 tier 3 kills, and 50 tier 5 kills. That's 850 "frags".

Plug the 15 power and 850 frags into the formula and you get....

About 4300 damage. On a hero that never specialized in magic damage. Who holds a vastly superior late game Light Magic. And this is only for a Knight and a Ranger. Imagine Rune Mage and Wizard with their much better spell power accumulation.


I am sorry. What the ****?

Why the hell does Light Magic with it's already incredible and scaling spells has a reliable way to blast off a nuke that is on par with Implosion? And notice, this is versus a Warlock's Implosion. No other hero that uses Destructive Magic will be able to achieve that level of fire power. The most they will have is the +50% earth artifact resulting in about a 2k damage implosion.

And it's not like having to cast it late in combat is a disadvantage, any sensible player will be blasting off Mass <insert godmode spell here> the first couple turns the hero gets. And then he gets to pick off your most successful damage dealer if his buffed army already hasn't crushed yours into dust.


So yeah, too long and elaborate, but Divine Vengeance is definitively the strongest tier 4 spell. More situational then some of the others, but if you look at the context, it's a spell that doesn't belong in the already uber Light Magic spellbook.

*Other spells on that list like Frenzy can be used to incredible damage in effect as well, but the incredible amount of improvement that Light Magic gets from Divine Vengeance is unreal. It's the best level 4 spell not because it rivals and often outdoes Implosion, but because it makes Light Magic even stronger and more versatile than it needed to be.

[danhvo]

No one disputes that Divine Vengeance can deal an incredible amount of damage, if cast late in the battle. If you know you will battle another player to the death, with a huge army, where the winner will win by barely surviving, then this is the spell to have.

But in normal, single-player play, this doesn't happen often, at least for me. Take your example. I rarely have that big of an army, let alone allow that much damage inflicted on my army. In most of my battles against AI and neutrals, I suffer little or no loss from enemy creatures, so I find myself never having the chance to use this spell. But AI heroes sure have fun with this spell against my army. With destructive spells, you can always use them, barring magic immunity of course.

I wouldn't call the spell overpowered. Rather, I'd call it unfair. I think it was designed to be used by the AI. I would suggest disabling it in multi-player games, but then that would significantly weaken Light Magic.

This thread isn't about the "strongest" spell. It's about the best spell, which includes, beside strength, things like versatility, usefulness, ease of countering, even a fun-to-use factor, etc.

I think you're not in the majority in your opinion of Light Magic being "uber". There's a poll somewhere on the best school of magic, and I believe Dark Magic was the clear winner.

[blizzardboy]

Teleportation baby. You don't mess with Teleport Assault. No fear of it being resisted/cleansed/banished etc... Where you want them, you get them. End of story.

[ThunderTitan]

And that's why i'm in favour of all dmg spells being affected by creature numbers... that and balance in long games/huge creature numbers.

[konfeta]

I think you're not in the majority in your opinion of Light Magic being "uber". There's a poll somewhere on the best school of magic, and I believe Dark Magic was the clear winner.

Just because the F22 is a kick-ass plane, doesn't mean the F16 is not amazing.

Light Magic amplifies your army to do incredible damage. Just because Dark Magic is numerically more powerful, doesn't make Light Magic any less uber.

[parcaleste]

Teleportation baby. You don't mess with Teleport Assault. No fear of it being resisted/cleansed/banished etc... Where you want them, you get them. End of story.

You are mistaken here - Teleportation is a Spell and T.A. is a sub-skill

[Lord Lakely]

Divine Vengeance *Dûh*. Really, this one is easy

Other great spells are Frenzy, Magical Immunity (priceless when you units get puppeted/frenzied), Meteor Shower (+Slippers) and Teleport.

[Panda Tar]

Frenzy. Depending on which creature you cast it upon, it'll make a bigger mess than the 2nd in my list: Divine Vengeance. The other spells are just ok.

[Asheera]

Voted for Frenzy, I didn't want to take into consideration Divine Vengeance which is clearly a mistake, no?

Frenzy for me is just stronger than even Puppet Master sometimes.

And I can't believe Summon Elementals got so many votes! Is that a joke?

[Lord Lakely]

.

And I can't believe Summon Elementals got so many votes! Is that a joke?

probably to support Zehir.

If I wouldn't have picked Divine Imbalance (I mean, vengeance) I would have picked Magical Immunity; it rocks and is great to counter Frenzy and Puppet Master. Frenzy is third.