It all comes down to the first big battle?

[c.schulzke]

As a new player, it seems like this game all comes down to the first real big battle and you either win or lose on the basis of that since if you lose you lose the hero you have been building up. What am I missing?

[Elvin]

You obviously must not lose your hero, if you do the game is lost. I have won games where I had to retreat or surrender.

[nevermindspy]

As a new player, it seems like this game all comes down to the first real big battle and you either win or lose on the basis of that since if you lose you lose the hero you have been building up. What am I missing?

Its true on most games but like elvin said ,On some games you can win even when losing first battle , And i'm pretty sure i had sometime that even losing the main hero and winning ..(VERY RARE ).

[c.schulzke]

I am used to playing Age of Wonders where losing a hero hurts but it isn't the end of the world. One of the things that I am having trouble with is gaugeing how well I am doing relative to the computer player. I often don't really know until well into the game.

I now know that surrendering before final defeat in a battle is the way to go, however, I am worried that unless my Hero is faster than my enemies he can just fight me again and then I am doomed no?

Part of my problem is that I am still learning the different factions and am a bit confused by Haven. I don't think I fully understand how training works or what are the best skills for your hero.

The learning curve seems a bit steep but so far the game is a blast.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

If you go to the first Celestial Heavens page, where the news is shown and look on the left side of the page you'll see various menues. If you go down to Town Details you see the various towns listed. Clicking on Haven for instance and you come to this page.

Looking on the right side above the picture of the griffin you see "strategy." If you click there you'll see a strategy guide for the Haven faction. Now, that came out before TOTE so you won't see the alernate cretures listed.

I also recommend that you use the skill wheel to help plan your skills.

Knights will focus on mass spells for their spellcasting. Mass haste and mass slow are very powerful. Crossbowmen and paladins are key troops. If you manage to hire Elaine (for a sexondary heroe) and give her peasants she can be a gold mine for you until you are ready to upgrade your peasants.

As Haven you'll have several troops who will cross the battlefield on the first turn (have 2 stacks of paladins) so take skills that emphasize might to decimate the enemy before he even gets to attack you.

Both upgrades of angels are quite nice but you don't really need them.

GOW

[danhvo]

I find that, unless the map is gold-rich (at least 2 gold mines for each town) or you have other ways to supplement your income (such as Spoils of War), training is useless, as you will barely have enough gold to buy the available weekly creatures and little left for training.

Also, training is hugely expensive (e.g. it costs a lot more to train an archer into a priest than to buy a priest), unless you max your Counterstrike skill, have Expert Trainer, AND wear the Pendant of Mastery. When you have all that, then the cost is about the same for training as for buying. You want to start with a base unit, not an upgraded unit, since it costs the same to train from, say, an archer as from a marksman.

[c.schulzke]

I find that, unless the map is gold-rich (at least 2 gold mines for each town) or you have other ways to supplement your income (such as Spoils of War), training is useless, as you will barely have enough gold to buy the available weekly creatures and little left for training.


Also, training is hugely expensive (e.g. it costs a lot more to train an archer into a priest than to buy a priest), unless you max your Counterstrike skill, have Expert Trainer, AND wear the Pendant of Mastery. When you have all that, then the cost is about the same for training as for buying. You want to start with a base unit, not an upgraded unit, since it costs the same to train from, say, an archer as from a marksman.

This matches my observations as well. I had hoped training would present a viable, alebit expensive, way to "break"
the recruitment limits, but as you point out it doesn't really work. Unfortunaelty, this seems to make leadership somewhat lackluster as a skill set, even with Divine Guidance and Empathy, sure its nice to have bonus morale but I think I would rather spend the choices elsewhere.

I played Haven quite a bit over the weekend and I think I am finally starting to the get the hang of them. The most fun so far has
been going the Fallen Knight, Twighlight route.

I played several games with other factions as well. Sylvan has been really interesting, their hero skill sets and high initiative
creatures makes for some incredible combinations. Necro and Inferno are fun as well. I tried Fortress and was completely confused
by them, which has me intrigued on getting to know them better. So far the only faction I don't care for is Academy, though I'm not really sure why.

The unofficial guide, as well as everyones comments, have been invaluble in understanding this game.

[Banedon]

As a new player, it seems like this game all comes down to the first real big battle and you either win or lose on the basis of that since if you lose you lose the hero you have been building up. What am I missing?

It is is mostly what happens. Much of the skill in the game manifests itself in the long run-up before the big battle (which most of the time is the final battle as well), where the more-skilled player builds up a resource, army and perhaps town advantage such that the battle is skewed in his favour. The victor of that battle is at a tremendous advantage. The game is not necessarily over (if both sides took very heavy casualties, it might still be possible to turn the game around) but a definite advantage will be conceded. But as Elvin said, you absolutely must not lose your hero. You have to retreat or surrender and rehire your hero, not lose him, or the game will be over.

I am used to playing Age of Wonders where losing a hero hurts but it isn't the end of the world. One of the things that I am having trouble with is gaugeing how well I am doing relative to the computer player. I often don't really know until well into the game.

It comes with experience. If you're building up your town and clearing your area of the map quickly, you are doing well regardless of what the computer player is doing. If you are losing key creatures to neutrals, you are doing badly regardless of what the computer player is doing. You'll develop a feel of how fast you should be progressing as you gain experience.

The unofficial guide, as well as everyones comments, have been invaluble in understanding this game.

Just a comment, the unofficial guide and everyones' comments are not gospel - they just indicate what other people think works and is good for a particular race. I'd encourage you to come to your own conclusions. Whatever works best for you is also the best strategy for you, even if it doesn't work for everyone else.

Of course though, if what works best for you works terribly for me I would be quite keen to 'discuss' it

[yuritch]

I find that, unless the map is gold-rich (at least 2 gold mines for each town) or you have other ways to supplement your income (such as Spoils of War), training is useless, as you will barely have enough gold to buy the available weekly creatures and little left for training.

I don't think so. First, do you really need to buy ALL the creatures from your town? I VERY rarely buy Angels for ex. (most of the time I don't even build their dwelling), and quite often I don't use Griffins at all. This leaves me with enough money to train Peasants to Archers in the first weeks (often starting at week 2), and later Footmen to Priests (if main hero is Dougal, then probably Archers all the way). Plus 3 extra free slots in the army (no Angels and Griffins, and who uses Peasants in battles?) allow me to have 2 tiny stacks of Inquisitiors for buffing (most of Priests are upgraded into Zealots for more damage) and a tiny stack of Squires for protection against ranged attacks (most Footmen are upgraded into Vindicators). I find this army composition very good, and don't really need the Griffins and Angels until much later in the game (by which time I usually find an additional source of gold, like a Gold mine or a new town).
Another variant is to train Paladins instead of Priests and have 2 stacks of them (so you can clear Dark spells from one stack with another), and still no Griffins/Angels.
Of course, all of this requires a good 'trainer' hero who should have Expert Counterstrike and Expert Trainer perk (and that's all, a few treasure chests will do for that). This is usually my secondary hero as main hero can go around the map for weeks without returning to main castle.
If you lose a major battle with this army, you can buy all those Angels and Griffins that sit in your castle and build a new army very fast (that is, it you actually built their dwellings, but didn't recruit them).

[danhvo]

I don't think you're making the best use of your gold, but hey, I'm glad someone finds the skill particularly useful.

[PhoenixReborn]

Maybe in 1 vs. 1. Not when you have multiple opponents.

[konfeta]

I had hoped training would present a viable, alebit expensive, way to "break"
the recruitment limits, but as you point out it doesn't really work. Unfortunaelty, this seems to make leadership somewhat lackluster as a skill set, even with Divine Guidance and Empathy, sure its nice to have bonus morale but I think I would rather spend the choices elsewhere.

Training used to be completely and utterly broken. Now that is has been balanced it's actually a fairly reliable way to get flexible choices for army composition assuming you aren't attempting to go overboard with the training process (like jumping ahead by a couple tiers) and bothered to invest 3 levels into training.

I mean, with expert Counterstrike and Training, you pay only 35% of the original training price. In other words, you pay 2% more of the original hiring price to get the unit you want if you make 1 step upgrade.

Which means you can convert peasants into archers or footmen into priests at slightly higher cost then you would if you bought them.

[blizzardboy]

Yea, that's what I noticed. But that's just how the games works. Back when Heroes 2 was around, I don't think they ever planned on this really being much of a multiplayer game.

Occasionally it doesn't work that way. If the battle is close enough, you can retreat or surrender and the enemy will be bruised enough that you can stay in the game.

Unless you're fighting a 30 year old Russian male. In which case you should just hit the power button on your computer and save yourself the trouble.