On Iron Lore and PC Gaming

[Vlaad II]

Stop hosting maps made by pirated editors, delete articles and comics based on pirated software, ban members who play pirated games, fire CH staff members who buy pirated CDs...?

Where did I suggest such actions exactly?

Who said you suggested it...? You wrote you were "really surprised (and a bit disgusted) by the numbers", so I suppose you are against piracy. The point is it's not that simple...

[Infiltrator]

JJ basically took and wrote down one of my last posts' closing into detail, and I couldn't agree more. The industry isn't losing out on piracy, counting the amount of pirated people as legitimate customers if that was their only option is just plain BS.

Corribus - no one needs games to survive, but if I only relied on stuff that I would need to survive then I would probably be living like a tribesman. Everyone has something fun to do, one or two hobbies, mine is drawing/design and games. I need them to have relaxation in a time where stress is very hard to avoid. So while I could survive with them, I never would go as far to say that I have them as a luxury - something like a golden cellphone or watch with diamonds in it.

Stealing is stealing in your book. Then by your black and white book I could say killing is killing, that girl defended herself and killed the rapist, while that guy murdered an innocent boy in cold blood. Let's put the girl and the murderer two in the same basket, after all killing is killing.
Here's a bit of advice, although I honestly doubt you'll take it - stop looking at the world in black and white.

I know your situation, I've been in the US, I've seen the prices, I've talked to people about it, and I've talked about their average income. Have you been in my (or any other with similar situation) country and done the same? What's that? No? So I suggest you quit pulling your moral integrity card, it's getting silly.

And there we go again.. comparing software piracy to practical theft, you've failed so many times in comparisons I can barely believe that someone proven wrong so many times continues bringing the same arguments over and over.

As several of us said you have no idea what you obviously do not have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to piracy and it's because you can't grasp the concept (actually you can but I don't think you would like it). The problem is NOT about any of us feeling like we are entitled to something, the problem is that:

1. Games here are substantially more expensive then in the US prices (45$ vs 50 EU~75$)
2. AVG salaries are much lower then in the US/West EU countries.
3. Software is not monitored, I can walk into a shop and they have pirated media.
4. A lot of people don't even know the difference here, and would probably laugh at you if you tried to convince them they should pay 75$ for a game, for good reason.

In fact I am probably an example for the world of piracy I'm living in, I have a pretty hefty collection of original games, whereas most people here have a 100% pirated library. That makes us who live in these countries and have original games on a higher moral ground then you who have all originals but live in the US. It means that we are willing to make a much bigger slap on our wallet then you in spite of the circumstance we live in. You'll never understand it, but it's true.

[Corribus]

Corribus - no one needs games to survive, but if I only relied on stuff that I would need to survive then I would probably be living like a tribesman. Everyone has something fun to do, one or two hobbies, mine is drawing/design and games. I need them to have relaxation in a time where stress is very hard to avoid.

Alright, now I get it. You need to relieve your stress, and the only way for you to do so is to play expensive computer games, and to do so stealing is justified. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Stealing is stealing in your book. Then by your black and white book I could say killing is killing, that girl defended herself and killed the rapist, while that guy murdered an innocent boy in cold blood. Let's put the girl and the murderer two in the same basket, after all killing is killing.

Remind me how stealing computer software is comparable to protecting yourself from a rapist? I already said, above - that if you were stealing food to survive, you might get me to at least excuse you on the grounds of necessity. Stealing is stealing when it's done for your pleasure or convenience. It doesn't really matter what the object is. You're analogy doesn't work.

I know your situation, I've been in the US, I've seen the prices, I've talked to people about it, and I've talked about their average income.

So you think everyone in the US makes the same income? You know my personal financial income, and my other monthly expenses, and how easy it is for me, personally, to buy computer software? Yeah, to some people in the US a 50 dollar PC game might not mean that much. To me it does. But thanks for making assumptions about my financial situation, while at the same time chastizing me for allegedly making assumptions about yours. That smacks of hypocrisy to me. And in any case, I don't really see how the situation makes one lick of difference. Rich, poor, black, white, male, female, human or warthog - stealing is wrong. That doesn't mean that sometimes it isn't necessary to survive, but I'm sorry, stealing games so you can have a little relaxation time doesn't really count.

And there we go again.. comparing software piracy to practical theft,

It's the same. You've failed to show how it isn't.

1. Games here are substantially more expensive then in the US prices (45$ vs 50 EU~75$)

Oh, cry me a river. Wah wah games are expensive here so I have to steal them so I can relax and have a hobby. Please.

2. AVG salaries are much lower then in the US/West EU countries.

Oh, cry me a river. Wah wah my salary is so low here so I have to steal games to relax and have a hobby. Please.

3. Software is not monitored, I can walk into a shop and they have pirated media.

Oh, cry me a river. Wah wah it's just so easy to get pirated software I can't resist the temptation to acquire them legally, so I steal them so I have relax and have a hobby. Please.

4. A lot of people don't even know the difference here, and would probably laugh at you if you tried to convince them they should pay 75$ for a game, for good reason.

Oh, cry me a river. Wah wah people will laugh at me if I try to convince them they should purchase their software legally so they can relax and have a hobby. Please.

That makes us who live in these countries and have original games on a higher moral ground then you who have all originals but live in the US. It means that we are willing to make a much bigger slap on our wallet then you in spite of the circumstance we live in. You'll never understand it, but it's true.

Dumbest argument ever. So now it's my fault that games are cheaper here, and you should get a medal for buying the games at a higher price? Of course, maybe you're right. When you and I and everyone else are standing in front of the Pearly White Gates, St. Peter will do an average cost to income analysis of our respective gaming libraries to determine who gets in and who doesn't. What a joke.

[Vlaad II]

Corribus, what would Ubisoft lose if I bought a pirated copy of H5? Nothing, because I wouldn't have bought the legal version anyway - I simply couldn't afford it. It's the piracy in rich countries that damages the sales, not East Europe or China.

Again, let's assume piracy is banned altogether, starting tomorrow - do you realize what would the backlash be on this community, for example...? On the entire online community, for that matter?

Developers have to find new ways to distribute their games - make them available for download for reasonable prices (additionally depending on region, maybe)...?

[Angelspit]

Developers have to find new ways to distribute their games - make them available for download for reasonable prices (additionally depending on region, maybe)...?

If 90% of people are not buying the games, will decreasing prices make such a difference in the end?

Please educate us, rich anti-piracy advocates who have a simplistic, black and white non-understanding of the issue at hand because they never traveled to another country and can't point to Eastern Europe on a map.

[Infiltrator]

Muszka is right.. it is indeed futile trying to explain how things work. Corribus is living the american dream, and he doesn't like points from people who are.. awake. I have nothing to reply to you Corribus, the ignorance you display in your post speaks for itself and discredits you more then anyone else could by pointing out its obvious flaws.

[Vlaad II]

Developers have to find new ways to distribute their games - make them available for download for reasonable prices (additionally depending on region, maybe)...?

If 90% of people are not buying the games, will decreasing prices make such a difference in the end?

Please educate us, anti-piracy advocates who have a simplistic, black and white non-understanding of the issue at hand.

Hehehe, that was one completely needless edit.

To answer your question - yes. Again, I have to emphasize reasonable prices. What's considered reasonable in Canada is obviously not in other countries. If an average Chinese gamer had an option to get a legal copy of his favorite game for, I dunno, 5 instead of 50$, perhaps he would? He could play online without any problems with players from around the world, feel satisfaction because he supports his favorite developer, enjoy a *cough* colorful manual *cough*, not feel like a thief, and finally - he wouldn't have to listen to people who think they are better simply because they come from richer countries, while in fact they would do the same if they were in his shoes.

[ThunderTitan]

The following is in response to comments from the 1st page onwards:

@AS

A PC can actually pay for itself (almost 5 years now and i've made 2x it's price). And P3?! I don't kow where you've been but when i bought my P4 i don't recall it being very expensive...

Also, i do buy original games if they're good enough (and maybe have some nice extras you can't get with a pirated copy, just in case anyone is listening, extra stuff is always welcomed) and the price is RIGHT... so yes, the price does count...

@ Timmy

It's as good a reason as the ones they use to justify overpricing their product (just look at how they complain about how making a game costs a few time more now then it used to, while they still make a profit for the same price).

But hey, ethics is only about obeying the law... (dude, no wonder everyone jumped on you, you sound way too self-righteous. you have a point, but it gets drowned in your holier-then-though writing).


*for more on my arguments check out the discussions about piracy from a few years back... WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS ALREADY PEOPLE!

[Angelspit]

If an average Chinese gamer had an option to get a legal copy of his favorite game for, I dunno, 5 instead of 50$, perhaps he would?

Oh, so you've been living in China as well? That thread makes me wish I was poorer...

[Corribus]

Corribus, what would Ubisoft lose if I bought a pirated copy of H5? Nothing, because I wouldn't have bought the legal version anyway - I simply couldn't afford it. It's the piracy in rich countries that damages the sales, not East Europe or China.

So because Ubisoft doesn't (according to you) lose anything, the theft is justified? That logic to me is flawed. Why? Because if everyone felt that way, then clearly Ubisoft would lose something. If I can get something for free, it's very easy for me to say, "Well I wouldn't have bought it anyway." But the question is, do I feel that way because I knew I could get it for free in the first place? Are you absolutely sure that if piracy wasn't an option, that those people wouldn't buy a single game at full price? If even one person would buy one game, that's a loss in revenue which, albeit small, blows your whole argument out of the water.

Aside from that, your basic argument is: if it doesn't hurt directly hurt anyone, what's the problem? This argument is of course only potentially salient when not dealing with solid objects. When cars and gold rings and bubble-gum are the objects in question, it's hard to make this argument because obviously someone loses out when you steal that item from a store. It's much easier to convince yourself that stealing a piece of software, which has no physical material value, doesn't directly cause any harm, because the victim (ie, the distributer) doesn't physically lose anything in the process.

First, I'm not convinced that this is the case, that the distributer (or other consumers) doesn't lose anything. At the very least, it's simply hard to evaluate. Up front, it seems to be the case, but has anyone actually tried to evaluate what the effect is of such forms of piracy on the industry as a whole? For instance, you could say that even if it doesn't cause an immediate loss in revenue, such piracy by people who wouldn't (allegedly) buy the game anyway nevertheless may cause the industry to spend a lot of additional money (justified or not) on anti-piracy measures. It may indirectly raise the cost of the game for legal purchasers. It may cause the company to spend unneeded resources on prosecution. It may cause the company to move away from PC gaming and to more "solid" types of merchandise like console gaming, which again affects the industry as a whole. There are probably other indirect consequences. Of course, these are mostly speculative. The point is, I don't think it is necessary as simple a relationship is "well so and so wouldn't have bought it anyway, so no harm done".

Second - can you be sure that piracy in "poor" countries doesn't affect rates of piracy in "rich" countries, which by your own words DOES hurt the industry?

Third - I stress that there's also an ethical concern here that shouldn't be made light of. Just because something doesn't physically hurt someone else or just because you can get away with something, doesn't mean it is right or that you should do it. I won't sit here and lecture you about why that might be the case, but there are sociological reasons why such activities - and more importantly, attitudes - are not to be condoned, even if they don't result in any loss in revenue to the manufacturer.

Again, let's assume piracy is banned altogether, starting tomorrow - do you realize what would the backlash be on this community, for example...? On the entire online community, for that matter?

No, please elaborate.

Developers have to find new ways to distribute their games - make them available for download for reasonable prices (additionally depending on region, maybe)...?

Yes, probably. But I feel that consumers also have to change their attitudes about the way they approach electronic merchandise. AND, these two things that need to be changed are not mutually exclusive.

Muszka is right.. it is indeed futile trying to explain how things work. Corribus is living the american dream, and he doesn't like points from people who are.. awake. I have nothing to reply to you Corribus, the ignorance you display in your post speaks for itself and discredits you more then anyone else could by pointing out its obvious flaws.

Whatever.

[Metathron]

While I do understand and sympathize with the points made by Infiltrator, Muszka, theLuckyDragon, Jolly Joker et al, and tend to agree, I really don't think there is any call for being rude, calling the other ignorant or dumb, and these words have appeared on both sides of the fence. When well-reasoned arguments fail, usually the best thing to aim for is to agree to disagree. We are, after all, friends here come to seek those of like mind, so our time is better spent in camaraderie than bickering, n'est-ce pas?

[Vlaad II]

If an average Chinese gamer had an option to get a legal copy of his favorite game for, I dunno, 5 instead of 50$, perhaps he would?

Oh, so you've been living in China as well? That thread makes me wish I was poorer...

I find it interesting you are nit-picking, answering only my side arguments.

No, I've been living in the States for six months now. But where I came from is worse than China. The funny thing is I bought my first legal CD when I came here - Tribes of the East. Why? Because here I get 8 times more for the same thing I did back at home.

As for pointing my country on the map, not one person I've met so far was able to do it. But it's OK, few people in my country know where Utah or Alabama are.

[Corribus]

But it's OK, few people in my country know where Utah or Alabama are.

A lot of people from the US probably don't, either.

[Vlaad II]

Corribus, what would Ubisoft lose if I bought a pirated copy of H5? Nothing, because I wouldn't have bought the legal version anyway - I simply couldn't afford it. It's the piracy in rich countries that damages the sales, not East Europe or China.

So because Ubisoft doesn't (according to you) lose anything, the theft is justified? That logic to me is flawed. Why? Because if everyone felt that way, then clearly Ubisoft would lose something. If I can get something for free, it's very easy for me to say, "Well I wouldn't have bought it anyway." But the question is, do I feel that way because I knew I could get it for free in the first place? Are you absolutely sure that if piracy wasn't an option, that those people wouldn't buy a single game at full price? If even one person would buy one game, that's a loss in revenue which, albeit small, blows your whole argument out of the water.

Aside from that, your basic argument is: if it doesn't hurt directly hurt anyone, what's the problem? This argument is of course only potentially salient when not dealing with solid objects. When cars and gold rings and bubble-gum are the objects in question, it's hard to make this argument because obviously someone loses out when you steal that item from a store. It's much easier to convince yourself that stealing a piece of software, which has no physical material value, doesn't directly cause any harm, because the victim (ie, the distributer) doesn't physically lose anything in the process.

First, I'm not convinced that this is the case, that the distributer (or other consumers) doesn't lose anything. At the very least, it's simply hard to evaluate. Up front, it seems to be the case, but has anyone actually tried to evaluate what the effect is of such forms of piracy on the industry as a whole? For instance, you could say that even if it doesn't cause an immediate loss in revenue, such piracy by people who wouldn't (allegedly) buy the game anyway nevertheless may cause the industry to spend a lot of additional money (justified or not) on anti-piracy measures. It may indirectly raise the cost of the game for legal purchasers. It may cause the company to spend unneeded resources on prosecution. It may cause the company to move away from PC gaming and to more "solid" types of merchandise like console gaming, which again affects the industry as a whole. There are probably other indirect consequences. Of course, these are mostly speculative. The point is, I don't think it is necessary as simple a relationship is "well so and so wouldn't have bought it anyway, so no harm done".

Second - can you be sure that piracy in "poor" countries doesn't affect rates of piracy in "rich" countries, which by your own words DOES hurt the industry?

Third - I stress that there's also an ethical concern here that shouldn't be made light of. Just because something doesn't physically hurt someone else or just because you can get away with something, doesn't mean it is right or that you should do it. I won't sit here and lecture you about why that might be the case, but there are sociological reasons why such activities - and more importantly, attitudes - are not to be condoned, even if they don't result in any loss in revenue to the manufacturer.

All good points. But since neither of us is a psychologist or economist, I won't make further assumptions.

Just for the record, I wasn't talking about ethics.

Again, let's assume piracy is banned altogether, starting tomorrow - do you realize what would the backlash be on this community, for example...? On the entire online community, for that matter?

No, please elaborate.

If piracy makes 90%, I think it's safe to assume that at least a percentage of CH staff members, posters, mapmakers and other contributors are using pirated software. What if they simply had not been abe to afford a legal copy...? What if thousands of messages, hundreds of maps and dozens of articles had never been submitted in the first place? Before you say anything, let me tell you it is literally either "Heroes" or the electricity bill...

[Vlaad II]

While I do understand and sympathize with the points made by Infiltrator, Muszka, theLuckyDragon, Jolly Joker et al, and tend to agree, I really don't think there is any call for being rude, calling the other ignorant or dumb, and these words have appeared on both sides of the fence. When well-reasoned arguments fail, usually the best thing to aim for is to agree to disagree. We are, after all, friends here come to seek those of like mind, so our time is better spent in camaraderie than bickering, n'est-ce pas?

Hehehe, and some say CH is boring?!

Don't worry, I'm sure Kalah is just around the corner, watching us from his modmobile.

[Thelonious]

People you're forgetting an important factor here; you're all talking about piracy and how it's bad; and with that I agree. But you're blaming the wrong persons. You shouldn't blame the downloading games (though what the do isn't very ethicly defendable) the ones that should be blamed are the one that hack the games and put the on the internet.

I mean; if there was no way to get a game for free on the internet, people would have to but the game.

I'm not pleading for superduper hytech protection on games here; because as we all now; that just doesn't work; but if there could be a stop to all the pirates out there, there would be no choice. And prices would go down (because of the increase in revenue)

[CloudRiderX]

I downloaded the demo of Titan quest to play, it seemed like a hopeful alternate to Diablo 3. it had a fast, real-time combat system and seemed pretty good. That is, until I played it. The graphics were good, and that's about it. There was no eye candy and the special skills looked lame. It seemed to be a shame, because it looks like Blizzard has closed its doors on Diablo's future, and something similar but more advanced would have been nice to play.

[arturchix]

But it's OK, few people in my country know where Utah or Alabama are.

A lot of people from the US probably don't, either.

Well said!

[Caradoc]

There's an article in Wired this month that argues that everything on the internet eventually becomes free. The successful companies are those that recognize this and find other ways to profit. (Eg. Yahoo's free, unlimited email.) The classic example is Gillette, who gave away razors so he could sell blades -- and eventually ended up giving away the blades too so he could sell shaving cream. Game companies have not yet figured this out.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

There's an article in Wired this month that argues that everything on the internet eventually becomes free. The successful companies are those that recognize this and find other ways to profit. (Eg. Yahoo's free, unlimited email.) The classic example is Gillette, who gave away razors so he could sell blades -- and eventually ended up giving away the blades too so he could sell shaving cream. Game companies have not yet figured this out.

The only problem is, how does the razor -> blades -> shaving cream analogy work for software? For hardware, the gaming industry already follows that model - Sony and Microsoft take losses on their consoles, and make it back through software sales. Until the Wii, I believe Nintendo took a loss on hardware also.
But how can you do that with software? I do not have enough time to play on-line games, and so once I get the game, a company doesn't get any more cash from me, unless they release a new game (or expansion) that I want. And if the quality is low, or the game is crippled, I won't trust new titles. SSI shot themselves in the foot in that respect- I bought all the Gold Box games, and many other titles. But then they had a run of shoddy games, and I quit purchasing their titles for several years. I did eventually go back to them, but only after I got a LOT of positive feedback from others.
The only thing I can see them doing is going the route of dongleware - and that is a real hassle to everyone.