[Storyline]The Ancients

[Lord of the Guns]

Who are they? Are they really mankind in the far future that makes full fledge galaxic empire?....

I've played MM7 before. the game mentioned that the ANCIENTS has highest technology. in later stage. players can use guns (ANCIENT'S WEAPONS!) and use it against Kreegans.

i've read some MM3 endings at the YOUTUBE (never play it ngeww!)... the LINCOLN spaceship computer mentioned that both Sheltem and Corak are "created".......
Are Shelthem and Corak cyborg? or are they "biologically synthesized lifeforms born from glasstubes"?
What makes half of Shelthem's face missing fleshes to cover skulls?
did Corak really get killed in MM4 ..... and has his souls encased inside the cube.
so who kills Corak. Sheltem?

did ancients re-clone Corak again after he "destroyed" Sheltem along with him using Self Destruct Code 001 ????
What is "Nacelle" world? is it really and purely synthetic planets made by the Ancients themself? why are all of nacelle worlds flat? are there any big machineries and systems that required for each nacelle to survive housed witnin each of it?

and what happened after Cloud side and Dark side of XEEN united as one? what is the XEEN map after it becomes a REAL ROUND planets like earth. how big is XEEN after the Rituals of Unification compares to our world? did every buildings in previous foms of XEEN blows up?

[Corlagon]

Who are they? Are they really mankind in the far future that makes full fledge galaxic empire?....

No, this is a fictional universe we're talking about. The Ancients are probably connected with the Arc and the Bright Star from The Dreamwright and The Shadowsmith. Read more here:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=522

i've read some MM3 endings at the YOUTUBE (never play it ngeww!)... the LINCOLN spaceship computer mentioned that both Sheltem and Corak are "created".......
Are Shelthem and Corak cyborg? or are they "biologically synthesized lifeforms born from glasstubes"?

They're Guardians - artifically created robots which appear human, just like Escaton. Most of them are assigned to watch over a planet, like Melian (Colony) or Sheltem (Terra).

What makes half of Shelthem's face missing fleshes to cover skulls?

It's just part of the character design, I guess.

did Corak really get killed in MM4 ..... and has his souls encased inside the cube.
so who kills Corak. Sheltem?

Corak was not killed then, just incapacitated. Sheltem and Corak both died at the end of MM5 when Corak self-destructed.

did ancients re-clone Corak again after he "destroyed" Sheltem along with him using Self Destruct Code 001 ????

Corak was only one of many robots with the C.O.R.A.K. personality module. We meet another at the end of MM7.

What is "Nacelle" world? is it really and purely synthetic planets made by the Ancients themself? why are all of nacelle worlds flat? are there any big machineries and systems that required for each nacelle to survive housed witnin each of it?

They are made through elemental manipulation, that is the Ancients coax the Elemental Lords into doing battle in order to form a new non-spherical world. Or so it would seem from the MM2 manual.

and what happened after Cloud side and Dark side of XEEN united as one? what is the XEEN map after it becomes a REAL ROUND planets like earth. how big is XEEN after the Rituals of Unification compares to our world? did every buildings in previous foms of XEEN blows up?

Who knows.

[Avonu]

They're Guardians - artifically created robots which appear human, just like Escaton. Most of them are assigned to watch over a planet, like Melian (Colony) or Sheltem (Terra).

Two things:
1. H1-3/MM6-8 planet name was not Colony (I want proofs if it was )
2. Corak and Sheltem were "newest" robots, they not only like like human but also have bone and flesh (as you can see in the MM5 ending). But was it real flesh and bones or maybe artifical?

It's just part of the character design, I guess.

IIRC he lost half of his face at the end of MM2 but I not sure about this. However he appears with "scars" on face in MM3 intro.

[Pol]

Note: Same what was applied on C.O.R.A.K. could be applied on S.H.E.L.T.E.M. as well, somewhere will be lying another of his modules... in dormant state.

Hower certain idea that one of robots could be possibly named W.I.N.D.O.W.S. in the nearest feature, is reaching values under the zero.

Who are they? Are they really mankind in the far future that makes full fledge galaxic empire?....

Many factors indicate that it seems so..

...also the code for self destruction sentence appears like one from very lazy admin... - so definitively our future

[Corlagon]

1. H1-3/MM6-8 planet name was not Colony (I want proofs if it was )

Here's your proof (not totally official, mind you):

http://www.castlegobs.nl/wiki/index.php/Plot

Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder - the C.O.L.O.N.Y.

2. Corak and Sheltem were "newest" robots, they not only like like human but also have bone and flesh (as you can see in the MM5 ending). But was it real flesh and bones or maybe artifical?

I don't think that robots with a human-like appearance were brand new inventions. Remember that Escaton, who is also a human lookalike, was a creation of the Ancients "old beyond the Silence".

IIRC he lost half of his face at the end of MM2 but I not sure about this. However he appears with "scars" on face in MM3 intro.

Really? I never knew about him losing half his face, then again I never played MM 1 or 2.

[Avonu]

Here's your proof (not totally official, mind you):

http://www.castlegobs.nl/wiki/index.php/Plot

Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder - the C.O.L.O.N.Y.

I don't see any liks from where these acronym is. Sorry, but without officail word (in-game or from developers) I can't belive it. After all, it's CastleGobs and "all way to Vori". ;P
Besides - this texts is full of author's own interpretation of game and "facts" from Book of Ceth not from previous MM saga.

I don't think that robots with a human-like appearance were brand new inventions. Remember that Escaton, who is also a human lookalike, was a creation of the Ancients "old beyond the Silence".

Well, I have on mind not appearance but how they are build. Melian was "thinking machine", Escaton have wires inside but Sheltem and Corak (who was built after first troubles with Sheltem) have bones and flesh. So if you look thay "building scheme" they was "newest" - first computer, next robots end at last "bio-robots"
(all names are used only to discribe them, they are not names from game etc.)

Really? I never knew about him losing half his face, then again I never played MM 1 or 2.

Me to - I only watched YouTube, so I maybe wrong.
But I remember that in some page with monsters from MM2 was Sheltem and king Alamar in MM1 has his face intact.

BTW - don't you have to do new version of (World of) Enroth timeline? I have this thing on mind but don't have to much free time. But I can send you some info I gathered.
Of course - only facts from games - no author's imagination.

Hower certain idea that one of robots could be possibly named W.I.N.D.O.W.S. in the nearest feature, is reaching values under the zero.

I wonder if its full name was something like that:

[Corlagon]

I don't see any liks from where these acronym is. Sorry, but without officail word (in-game or from developers) I can't belive it.

Oh well... good luck getting truly official info then, what with the game's parent company dead.

You do have a point but then again none of the MM Tribute plot contradicts the rest of the games, at least from what I can see right now, so I don't have any problem with it.

BTW - don't you have to do new version of (World of) Enroth timeline? I have this thing on mind but don't have to much free time. But I can send you some info I gathered.
Of course - only facts from games - no author's imagination.

Sure, what info have you found? Anything I might have missed is welcome. I neglected updating the timeline a while back, but I have some time to work on it now.

[Avonu]

Oh well... good luck getting truly official info then, what with the game's parent company dead.

Company for sure but not people. Beside all is in the Internet - you must only find it.





Isn't this planet familiar?

Sure, what info have you found? Anything I might have missed is welcome. I neglected updating the timeline a while back, but I have some time to work on it now.

I send it to you later via PM.

[Lord of the Guns]

....

our sweet earth, the ANCIENTS homeworld (??). it looks nowhere likes C.O.L.O.N.Y

Axeoth.... is it really an acronym?
(Advanced Xylonite .... ... still wonder what do E.O.T.H. stands for?)

[Avonu]

Axeoth.... is it really an acronym?
(Advanced Xylonite .... ... still wonder what do E.O.T.H. stands for?)

Another eXtraordinary Earthlike Or Terraformed Heroesworld

And no - C.O.L.O.N.Y. is fan-fiction

[Marzhin]

In LotA (which is, of course, fan-fiction all the way), Axeoth is a "degenerate" spelling of A.X.O.S., which stands for Advanced Xylonite Orbital Seed.

[Corlagon]

Cool. On that subject, since you tied in The Dreamwright and The Shadowsmith with LotA, is this "interpretation" of Heroes IV set before or after the books? I'm asking because the Arc, the Bright Star, the Wheel, A(u)ldemar and the Staff of Blue Light are all referenced, but the only hint about their timeframe is:

the Ancients received the help of a Planeswalker to organize a counterattack. They managed to lure the main Kreegan forces inside the first city of the dwarves, making them believe this was where the portal was standing. When the Kreegans realized the city was in fact deserted, it was too late : the Planeswalker moved the whole place out of phase, successfully trapping the Kreegans' greatest warriors in an astral plane.

I'm tempted to believe that this "Planeswalker" is Hitch, now the new Dreamwright...

And no - C.O.L.O.N.Y. is fan-fiction

Sorry for being so stubborn about this, it's just that I don't find it credible that "Enroth" could be the name for a kingdom, continent and planet all in one go

Maybe you're familiar with Warcraft? There was a country called Azeroth - they later changed the name of the world to Azeroth, and revised the lore changing the kingdom's name to Stormwind because it sounded so awful

[Kareeah Indaga]

...also the code for self destruction sentence appears like one from very lazy admin... - so definitively our future

Actually I took a graphic design class last semester, and unless I grossly misunderstood the professor 001 is the last vertical line in a 3x3 transformational matrix to make certain kinds of transformations compatible with other transformations.

(Someone with a stronger background in the subject may want to correct me if I’m wrong.)

1. H1-3/MM6-8 planet name was not Colony (I want proofs if it was )

Here's your proof (not totally official, mind you):

http://www.castlegobs.nl/wiki/index.php/Plot

Composite Orbital Learning Opportunity Network Yielder - the C.O.L.O.N.Y.

Second Avonu on this, MMT does not constitute canon any more than my fanfiction does.

As for Sheltem’s facial damage—isn’t it possible he just got his face damaged when his ship landed on XEEN? (Someone remind me—didn’t he crash? Just less violently than Corak…)

I don't see any liks from where these acronym is. Sorry, but without officail word (in-game or from developers) I can't belive it.

Oh well... good luck getting truly official info then, what with the game's parent company dead.

MMVI and VIII manuals say COLONY is wrong, even if it wasn’t out of keeping with the rest of the names in the games.

You do have a point but then again none of the MM Tribute plot contradicts the rest of the games, at least from what I can see right now, so I don't have any problem with it.

We are talking about the same project which stubbornly insists Karigor is glued to the top of Jadame, correct?

[Avonu]

As for Sheltem’s facial damage—isn’t it possible he just got his face damaged when his ship landed on XEEN? (Someone remind me—didn’t he crash? Just less violently than Corak…)

As I said earlier, he has his face damaged in MM3 intro.
And he didn't crash on Xeen - statis field protect him:

Log Entry XLDBA: The X.E.E.N. project looms ahead. All three ships will crash into it tomorrow. My stasis generator will protect me and my ship from the impact. Mostly. May the Gods smile upon me.

Log Entry XLDBB: Impact complete. Stasis passed in the blink of an eye. My sensors indicate that the main ship passed through the atmosphere of the other side of the world and burned up, but not before safely beaming the Terran natives to the surface. Corak's escape pod landed in lava and is stuck there. How sad.

...but something evidently did wrong with his sensors because, as we known from MM7, Terran natives did not landed on Xeen.

[Corlagon]

Second Avonu on this, MMT does not constitute canon any more than my fanfiction does.

Sigh, you've found the reason why I said "not exactly official". Btw, where's your fanfiction?

In any case it's a matter of opinion. You say it's not made by NWC and therefore isn't relevant; I say more than sufficient fan-generated effort has gone into the thing to make it canonical in my eyes, just like with LotA - simply because I see no problem with it.

We can all hope someone "official" will come back some day and revive the old storyline, but that just isn't gonna happen. I'm just glad to see that someone out there has enough interest in the story to further it.

Interpretations and opinions.

MMVI and VIII manuals say COLONY is wrong, even if it wasn’t out of keeping with the rest of the names in the games.

They don't say Colony is wrong. They say "the world of Enroth". That doesn't have to mean the planet is called Enroth. Let me know if you ever come across something canonical which specifies the planet's name beyond reasonable doubt.

We are talking about the same project which stubbornly insists Karigor is glued to the top of Jadame, correct?

Got info to the contrary apart from "a small island southeast of the 'bootleg' that New Sorpigal is situated on"? All we have geographically on Karigor's location comes from the natives of Enroth... people who think Antagarich is called Erathia.

[Kareeah Indaga]

(You went and edited on me. Bad Corlagon, bad! )

As I said earlier, he has his face damaged in MM3 intro.

Ah, missed that, sorry. And thanks for the link.

Log Entry XLDBA: The X.E.E.N. project looms ahead. All three ships will crash into it tomorrow. My stasis generator will protect me and my ship from the impact. Mostly. May the Gods smile upon me.

He could have been more damaged by the impact…nah, not going to argue it.

Where's your fanfiction?

Floating around the Campfire somewhere. I can dig up the links if you like.

They don't say Colony is wrong. They say "the world of Enroth". That doesn't have to mean the planet is called Enroth. Let me know if you ever come across something canonical which specifies the planet's name beyond reasonable doubt.

“World of Enroth” in two manuals and “save Enroth from planetary extinction” in one. The former may leave room for doubt, but the latter not so much.

Got info to the contrary apart from "a small island southeast of the 'bootleg' that New Sorpigal is situated on"?

One moment please.


*activating Mathematician/Logic persona*
*Mathmatician/Logic persona is ON*


There are several locations necessary for the calculation of Karigor in relation to the other regions of the world.

First, the given—Karigor itself:

"If ever there was a snake's nest of politics and religion, it was Karigor. Karigor is a small island southeast of the 'bootleg' that New Sorpigal is situated on. The twin rival Churches of the Sun and the Moon were founded there, and fought the longest war the world has ever seen until they managed to destroy one another about 200 years ago. Their artifacts of power are scattered around the world."

The second is New Sorpigal—note its position on the map: The MM6 map.

The next is the location of Regna. Although this may seem unintuitive at first, the reason for this will soon become clear. Don’t worry, we’ll come right back to this:

The traditional back-up weapon of the Regnan pirates living on the countless islands east of the island of Mist. These cutlasses were forged by one of a long line of smiths native to those islands.

"About 200 miles to the east of us lie the Regnan Islands. They are inhabited with pirates ruled by an 'emperor' who 'taxes' passing ships that pass near their territory. The Regnans produce almost nothing on their own, with the exception of weapons and mercenaries."

"The islands east of Enroth are all part of the 'Kingdom' of Regna. They were settled by the most nasty and violent of people hundreds of years ago, and they haven't changed their ways. They are pirates and mercenaries to a man, and have no regard for the sorrow they cause by siding with petty tyrants and usurpers like Archibald was."

‘But how,’ you ask, ‘is the position of Regna in relation to Mist relevant to Karigor?’

Look again at the map above. Note the position of Mist in relation to New Sorpigal; Mist is to the north. Now, since Mist is north of New Sorpigal, and New Sorpigal is north(west) of Karigor, it stands to reason that Mist is also north of Karigor. And, since Regna is close enough to the same latitude as Mist as to gain only the distinction of being east, Regna is therefore also north of Karigor.

Now, look at the map of Regna and Jadame: Here.

Note the position of Regna on this map. Specifically in relation to Jadame. Regna is south of Jadame. And New Sorpigal, as was established earlier, is south of Regna, and therefore also south of Jadame. Therefore Karigor, being south of New Sorpigal, is also south of both Regna and Jadame. And as it is south of Jadame, it cannot be north of it without being SO far south that it starts being north again and would no longer be southeast of New Sorpigal.


*Mathmatician/Logic persona is OFF*


Other fun facts and tidbits on Karigor:

"Cotton is found in Karigor, the island home of the Church of the Sun and the Church of the Moon. It doesn't grow well anywhere else, and it's difficult to pick and seed, but it makes for wonderful soft clothes, if you can afford it."

"Grindstones are so hard to make and find, it's a wonder anyone ever becomes a miller. I hear that Karigor has a great rock quarry that turns things like millstones out by the hundreds.

"They say that the streets of Kalimar, the capitol city of Karigor, are made of fine jade, and the buildings all use it too. Sounds beautiful, doesn't it?"

"Mogreds are extinct in Enroth, and almost extinct in Karigor. They were over-hunted because of how valuable their horns are for enchanting."

"When I was much younger, I had a chance to see the ruined library of the Church of the Moon at Karigor. It was made entirely of jade and marble, and once contained the wisdom of the ages within its hallowed halls. If ever you have a chance to visit, take it!"

This War Axe appears to be one of a large shipment of such axes seized by Roland during the Succession War. It was manufactured in Karigor by order of Archibald Ironfist to be used against his brother in their struggle for the throne of Enroth.

"Magically constructed, these hammers are the property of the Church of the Moon in Karigor."

"Cavalry officer's chain mail from the reign of Taledon V of Karigor, Divine High Priest and High Holy Conduit of the Church of the Sun, circa 870 A.S. The armor is high quality chain, enchanted to lighten and strengthen the metal."

Half made from the skull of the ferocious Mogred beast in Karigor, these helms grow more uncommon every year as the Mogreds approach extinction. The red stripes around the horns of the helm are highly receptive to enchantment."

A cloak formerly worn by high officials of the Church of the Sun of Karigor prior to the dissolution of the Church in 1083 A.S. Nearly all these cloaks were enchanted in one way or another.

A cloak formerly worn by high officials of the Church of the Moon of Karigor prior to the dissolution of the Church in 1083 A.S. Nearly all these cloaks were enchanted in one way or another.

End fun facts.

All we have geographically on Karigor's location comes from the natives of Enroth... people who think Antagarich is called Erathia.

So do the people of Erathia…remember MMVII’s map? If you want to argue that the games themselves are not canonical I’m afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree. Errorless? Of course not. But claiming the universe disagrees with itself on a particular facet should be the last resort, IMO, to be applied after other avenues of explanation have been exhausted, not the first. And I for one will not lightly discard the canon for fan speculation, no matter how much fun the latter may be.

[Corlagon]

(You went and edited on me. Bad Corlagon, bad! )

Yes, I decided I had more to say. I'm sorry if that offended you...

Floating around the Campfire somewhere. I can dig up the links if you like.

Cool, I'm intrigued. Would you mind?

“World of Enroth” in two manuals and “save Enroth from planetary extinction” in one. The former may leave room for doubt, but the latter not so much.

But then again, Melian could easily have simply said Enroth so the adventurers could understand what exactly he / she was talking about. And the MM6 manual comes from Klavis Verge, who's a native Archmage of the planet. He couldn't have known any better.

Note the position of Regna on this map. Specifically in relation to Jadame. Regna is south of Jadame. And New Sorpigal, as was established earlier, is south of Regna, and therefore also south of Jadame. Therefore Karigor, being south of New Sorpigal, is also south of both Regna and Jadame. And as it is south of Jadame, it cannot be north of it without being SO far south that it starts being north again and would no longer be southeast of New Sorpigal.

*applauds* (oh, see further below)

End fun facts.

MM7View sure is a great tool.

So do the people of Erathia…remember MMVII’s map?

Well, that's hard proof that people in these games can be wrong about their own homelands. Does that really make them more accurate when describing a foreign island?

Plus Roland's letter to Nicolai from MM9 specifies that the continent's called Antagarich, as it's been called from Armageddon's Blade onwards - they revised the lore.

If you want to argue that the games themselves are not canonical I’m afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree. Errorless? Of course not. But claiming the universe disagrees with itself on a particular facet should be the last resort, IMO, to be applied after other avenues of explanation have been exhausted, not the first. And I for one will not lightly discard the canon for fan speculation, no matter how much fun the latter may be.

I for one will not so lightly discard such a valiant effort to continue the storyline rather than let it rot, especially if the one and only divergence it takes from the canon is the position of what is referred to as a "small island" by uneducated peasants who walk around Enroth aimlessly.

But I've never argued that the games are not canonical... That would just be idiotic. I'm saying they can, and have, presented conflicts between information. One more can't hurt. Would you like a full list?

EDIT: Oh, I've discovered a fundamental flaw in your Mathmatician/Logic persona:

About 200 miles to the east of us lie the Regnan Islands.

Regnan pirates living on the countless islands east of the island of Mist.

The islands east of Enroth are all part of the 'Kingdom' of Regna.

But how,’ you ask, ‘is the position of Regna in relation to Mist relevant to Karigor?’

I only saw one island of Regna in MM8, plus the isle of Harecksburg, not including those spatterings of land nearby and the Dagger Wound Isles. Then let's take a look at Heroes III. In "Foolhardy Waywardness" we come across another set of islands ruled by the Regnans, seemingly miles away from the original island of Regna. None of those quotes specify that we're talking about the Regna Island south of Jadame, do they? We could very easily, and very probably, be referring to the isles between Enroth and Antagarich.

In short I think you're confusing the "countless isles" owned by Regna with Regna Island itself.

[Ribannah]

The name COLONY was approved of by Tim Lang (NWC) in 2003.

As for the location of Karigor, note that with Jadame north of Regna, if Regna were north of New Sorpigal, then Jadame would be snow-covered instead of subtropical.

- Rib -

[Meandor]

anything else was approved?

[Kareeah Indaga]

Yes, I decided I had more to say. I'm sorry if that offended you...

It didn’t offend me, just inconvenienced me. I had the whole huge post written out only to refresh the page and poof! More writing. So of course I had to go back and edit the whole thing…but no worries.

Floating around the Campfire somewhere. I can dig up the links if you like.

Cool, I'm intrigued. Would you mind?

Not at all! Here you go:

Fic contest entries by Mytical, winterfate, and me.

One of mine here.

Another one here, with Justice’s.

And while searching for these, I found Justice’s long-lost fanfiction topic here.
O_O I’m sorry Justice! I didn’t see it!

But then again, Melian could easily have simply said Enroth so the adventurers could understand what exactly he / she was talking about. And the MM6 manual comes from Klavis Verge, who's a native Archmage of the planet. He couldn't have known any better.

Melian? Who said anything about him? (The voice that greets you is masculine, though I suppose being a computer Melian’s voice could change genders, pitches, and languages with abandon. So I refer to him as a he as I don’t care to bother with the he/she definition right now. So instead I write out this long sentence. The irony is not lost on me.)

MM7View sure is a great tool.

Yes, yes it is.

I for one will not so lightly discard such a valiant effort to continue the storyline rather than let it rot

I never said the effort wasn’t appreciated, I said it wasn’t canon.

EDIT: Oh, I've discovered a fundamental flaw in your Mathmatician/Logic persona:

[…]

I only saw one island of Regna in MM8, plus the isle of Harecksburg, not including those spatterings of land nearby and the Dagger Wound Isles. Then let's take a look at Heroes III. In "Foolhardy Waywardness" we come across another set of islands ruled by the Regnans, seemingly miles away from the original island of Regna. None of those quotes specify that we're talking about the Regna Island south of Jadame, do they? We could very easily, and very probably, be referring to the isles between Enroth and Antagarich.

I’m not sure I’m understanding you. There is absolutely nothing preventing multiple islands being east of Mist as well as being considered part of Regna. (“Empire of Endless Ocean” and all that.) And, as Queen Catherine and King Roland were enroute from Antagarich to Enroth when they came to visit in MM8, that rather strongly suggests that the Regna of MM8 is just as much between the two as the Regna in Foolhardy Waywardness.

(And as a side note, it is my understanding that Harecksburg is the settlement on the central island, not the central island itself; note that it’s marked with the slightly smaller font—the same way the village of Blood Drop is, and the city of Twilight in the region of Shadowspire, and the city of Rust in the Ironsand Desert. )

The name COLONY was approved of by Tim Lang (NWC) in 2003.

Link please.

As for the location of Karigor, note that with Jadame north of Regna, if Regna were north of New Sorpigal, then Jadame would be snow-covered instead of subtropical.

Two notes here:

First, climate is not a guarantee of distance from the equator. There are all sorts of other factors that can also affect the climate—currents from the south, prevailing winds, planetary tilt—and those are just the typical causes. There could be another major artifact pumping out enough heat to prevent snow (though I doubt it).

Second, while Mist is north of New Sorpigal, there is a great deal of territory north of Mist that isn’t snowy; Silver Cove and the Eel Infested Waters, for starters. So being north of an island east of Mist does not by any means even guarantee a high probability of a cold climate.