What makes a good map?

[magnomagus]

Interesting discussion,

I personally agree with most idea's of growlingdog. Selecting factions and hero's makes it possible to tryout different strategies and increases the replayability. A lot of water is annoying because of the boarding times.
I like to play very large maps were you have a good time to build up a large army before you can meet your opponents in a large battle. There also need to be a lot of powerful mixed neutrals stacks on the map to keep things interesting before the last battle. I also don't like artifact merchants on a map because they hurt the questing part. Mostly you can just wait before the relics show up. I recently created a large map that meets these criteria, I have (not yet) released it on CH because it was created for a large modpack, if you don't like the mod there is nothing to worry about because the map is playable without it. In case you want to give it a try: You can find the map and the modhere

[ByteBandit]

Big maps also allow you to make those two wonders I just noticed in the Latest Maps section on CH They look awesome, I'm very impressed. Too bad I don't have Heroes 4 over here at college.

I think this goes to show that an impressive terrain design does have a certain impact in making a 'good' map.

Thanks. I know the testers liked them. In fact, Koni has released a German version of Ancient Empires in Germany. He's asked if he could release the others translated as well. What? I'm gonna say No?

[Muszka]

Story for me. My favorit is Sander Payne (Cheers for Corribus).
But in any case, the bigger, the better.

[Humakt]

Design, scenery, innovations and challenge are important aspects to me. Story isn't important unless it is adventure (some refer to them as roleplaying maps but that's misleading term) map. Replayability is definite plus.

But I generally don't like XL or large maps anymore, they often take too long time to finish playing. Besides medium sized maps are actually enough (at least in Heroes 4) to provide lots of levels and army-build up anyway.

[Muszka]

My experience tells me, that maps with great story are a good challenge, the design is on map is good too(being a picturemap is just the cherry on the top).

[Akul]

My favourite maps have:
-M and L - S maps are too small and XL maps are usually too long because thats mapmakers goal.
-good story - I am a story freak.
-much strategy - HoMM is a strategical game and should, IMO, have a lot of strategy. I like RPG maps because of the story, but I like Strategical maps more.
-exciting battles - no comment
-nice landscapes - not important for gameplay, but very important for atmosphere.

tough, in thruth, I enjojed all fan-made maps, especialy those whos gameplay has been tweaked by the mapmaker

Design, scenery, innovations and challenge are important aspects to me. Story isn't important unless it is adventure (some refer to them as roleplaying maps but that's misleading term) map. Replayability is definite plus.

Story is also very important if you are making a campaign. Also, story increases the quality of the map and makes player enjoj it more (if story is good)

But I generally don't like XL or large maps anymore, they often take too long time to finish playing. Besides medium sized maps are actually enough (at least in Heroes 4) to provide lots of levels and army-build up anyway.

L would be my favourite. It ain't too big like XL and it ain't too small like M which makes it accesible to all kinds of players.
I would disagree that length of the map depends on its size. You can make an strategical M map longer then an RPG-ical XL map.

[Humakt]

Story is also very important if you are making a campaign. Also, story increases the quality of the map and makes player enjoj it more (if story is good)

True about campaign, though I'd say not every campaign needs to have a story. It depends purely on the goals and purpose of the campaign. It could be military campaign style or just strategic and that wouldn't require much story.

I prefer also shorter than to the point stories than lengthy ones (can still be lengthy but not pages upon pages of text at once). If story is lengthy it would be nice if it's more interactive then.

In any case, if there is lots of story on the map, it has to be good. Bad story (in other words plot is bland and/or storytelling itself is bad) only hinders experience even if otherwise the map is great.

I would disagree that length of the map depends on its size. You can make an strategical M map longer then an RPG-ical XL map.

We don't disagree, but size is usually a factor and most obvious indicator to the player of the map's length.

[Mozared]

ok so it looks like most people like the same time type of maps, now all we have to do is try and talk someone into making them. Oh and remember i like to choose my own faction and hero so please STOP with all the maps that have preset factions and heroes. I guess i should try and make my own . After looking at the map editor though, i think it's going to take a long time.

http://www.2shared.com/file/2699933/a7c ... rders.html
http://www.2shared.com/file/2699944/76e ... _TOTE.html
http://www.2shared.com/file/2699942/9f857f4f/Chill.html

Here you go.

Link 1 is Broken Borders for HoF, a map I did some time ago. It's only seen private use but I might as well share it. It's not teriffic or 100% balanced, but it's large and can be fun to play. It's allied too, if you have a couple of friends around.
Link 2 is Broken Borders redone for TotE; Pretty much the same except for minor 'lore' changes and the fact that the necromancers have been turned into the Orcs.
Link 3 is a smaller map, noticed some people seem to like that as well. It should be avarage/resource rich and fine for a 1 on 1. Except it's a 2 on 2, making the make quite crowded with a poor amount of resources. But that's planned.

Only thing I can't supply you with is the ability to pick your race... I'm really a terrain-guy, and some castles just look dreadful on specific terrain. Regardless, you should have a wide choice in Broken Borders (sorry for you Inferno fans, it's the only race not on the map at all).

Hope you can enjoy them.

As to be on-topic; I prefer huge maps myself (as you can see), where you have plenty of time to build an enormous castle, and the whole map leads up to a climax of an ending. Terrain and lore are definatly the most important factors for me. Some original Nival maps are brilliant, but yet I absolutely hate them because of the terrain (allies, to name one specifically... it's one crowd of water pools in a spider's web of land). I suppose this goes back from the time I was a terrainer for Warcraft 3, and the fact that I'm a perfectionist... very good looking maps without lore are fun, but imo simply lacking. I enjoy myself reading over those town biography's every once in a while... without those, it's more like a game of turn based RTS and it plainly gets boring.

Edit: As a small note; My bad, I automatically assumed it's all heroes 5 here. The maps I posted are obviously heroes 5 + expansions only.

[rdeford]

A most excellent thread. All these opinions are great and I am taking notes. My preferences, which are reflected in the maps I make, are:

-- I play almost nothing but play single player maps except when I team with my wife against the AI in a 2Vxx multi-player map
-- maps bigger than large take too long
-- just "kill all" as the objective makes a boring map
-- story maps are best, but story has to be original and avoid cliches
-- really long text is bad (agreed) but can be good if well written
-- mini quests are good, especially if they involve a puzzle to solve
-- mini quests that have consequences and/or choices are good
-- mini quests that affect the final outcome are good
-- good terrain that makes you desire to explore just for exploration's sake is wonderful
-- custom objects and features that give a new gaming experience are good
-- strong, augmented AI that gives you an exciting game is good
-- author has tweaked the game play so you get good combat but still have time to try everything and see the entire map
-- overwhelming maps that are not logical, or require you to rush through the playing experience are bad. (I like to smell the roses.)
-- open ended game play and multiple outcomes are good
-- choosing any faction to start is nice if you love a particular faction and are really good with it, but not best for many highly original map concepts. And it can look ugly (agreed), for example, when a Dungeon is placed in a desert.

Thanks for posting this thread and thanks for contributing to it.

[Muszka]

A most excellent thread. All these opinions are great and I am taking notes.

[Tobius]

-- story maps are best, but story has to be original and avoid cliches
-- really long text is bad (agreed) but can be good if well written

I agree that story maps are the best maps, if the story is original and worth "reading". As a basic principle a story map has much more potential to entertain the player than any other kind of map ever could. Fighting and quests without a story, which keeps the pieces together, is just boring after a while, isn't it? But a map with an suspenseful story and interesting quests is much more fun. If this map has some challenging fights, too, it is simply the best map you can get.

However, I cannot really follow youre second point. I think, a text does not have to be long to be bad. A short text that is badly written can be as tedious as a long text. It depends on the map maker's ability for story telling whether a text gets boring or fascinating. The length of the text does not correlate with its quality in any case. A long and well-written text can be better than any shorter text, because in this case you want to read more. A short or long bad-written text can turn the whole map into a frustrating waste of time.

[Muszka]

-- really long text is bad (agreed) but can be good if well written

However, I cannot really follow youre second point. I think, a text does not have to be long to be bad. A short text that is badly written can be as tedious as a long text. It depends on the map maker's ability for story telling whether a text gets boring or fascinating. The length of the text does not correlate with its quality in any case. A long and well-written text can be better than any shorter text, because in this case you want to read more. A short or long bad-written text can turn the whole map into a frustrating waste of time.

I rather agree with rdeford. A long story is boring in the most cases, but there are maps where the story is amazingly fascinating, and even makes the player to regret, that the texts aren't longer. (e.g.: Corribus' maps)

[Tobius]

Did I say something else? Yes, you are right: long stories can be boring if the map maker lacks the ability of story-telling. I agree that Corribus' maps are examples of great stories, but are there any other comparable maps? I think the Traemask maps for example have more text than any other map out there (up to now). OK, I did not really care about Heroes IV maps so I cannot say that there were no comparable maps concerning the text, but for Heroes III (and probably Heroes V, too) you can hardly find any equal stories that match the complexity and quality of Corribus' stories.

And I really do not know any maps with comparable long stories whose stories were boring. Or do you know some "black sheep"?

[Muszka]

I don't remember one either.
You know, there may be no "black sheeps", because no mapmaker would make such an effort without devotion.

[ByteBandit]

What makes a good map? I gave a perspective from a game players point of view. Now I would like to give one from a mapmakers point of view. This is how I go about it:

First, I come up with the idea that I want to make a map. I don't know what the story will be or the size of the map yet. I just decided to "make" a map.
Then I do something different than other map makers either overlook or could care less about. What kind of maps do players like? Not from a personal choice, but from a Global choice. I go to Google and look up every HoMM 1 - 4 map site there is on the planet. I scroll down and see what people like and this is what I go by. What are my findings you ask? Funny you should ask! Here's what I found from around the world:

1. There are more XL maps than L, M, S and campaigns.
2. Roughly 90 % have an underground to them. (H2 being the exception for obvious reasons.}
3. XL maps are the most downloaded maps. Campaigns being second, followed by L, M and S respectively.
4. Storied maps are popular, but don't seem to be the determining factor when it comes to the amount of downloads.
5. Highly rated maps are popular, but again, not a determining factor when it comes to the downloading numbers. But the better the story, or original it is, the higher the rating.
6. Choosing the faction type maps outnumber a selective faction map almost 3 to 1. And the download numbers are more positive as well.
7. Map author. Not important. Apparently the player is unforgiving to map makers in this category and could care less who makes them.
8. Language. This is more a localized category more than anything else. But English maps seem to do better in a foreign country than, say, a foreign map in an English speaking community. Why that is, is beyond me.
9. Style seems to be important. This goes with the addage more is great! Maps with a lot more stuff are downloaded more than empty ones..
10.Type. This is varied also. I've seen more H3 maps than H4 and H2 maps. Although the downloads are roughly comparible, there is more variety to choose from with H3.

Now, this is not by any means scientific from what I found. I don't use calculators or pie charts to make my determiination. I am doing just a rough search and even rougher analysis of the data I compile. I have found through the 10 or 11 years that I have played HoMM, tastes change, but the constant remains the same. And it's from this kind of material, I begin to make a map.
But as a bottom line kind of map maker, you have to ask yourself some questions that may or may not be important for you. Do you make a map for you or for what the masses want to play? I choose the masses myself. But that's just me.

[Vlaad II]

A good analysis, ByteBandit. Has Vel ever published his? It would be interesting to compare notes.

As for the language factor, the explanation is quite obvious - English is spoken all over the world, while Dutch, Serbian or Polish are not.

[ByteBandit]

I don't know if he ever published his findings or not, Vlaad. If you find it, post it here and check the date. As I stated above, tastes change through the years, so it should make for some interesting debate if nothing else.

[Muszka]

A good analizis indeed ByteBandit. But I don't find it to be surprising.

7. Map author. Not important. Apparently the player is unforgiving to map makers in this category and could care less who makes them.

For those players who aren't members of any community, the names shown at the begining a map are fully irelevant.
For a simple player to keep in mind a mapmakers name, it has to be an admirably good map for him/her.
Now I'm curious of the mapmaker's name, but before I started to be activ here I remember only a few names, like Tim Duncan, Slava, Fnord.
It's sad indeed, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the respectiv player is not a true HoMM fan.

P.S.: what kind of analizis has Vel?

[Koni]

I don't remember one either.

For me, concerning a longer and fantastic/fascinating story yet, Jeff's Dragons Fate and wimfrits' Wind of thorns campaigns are the best ever I have seen (and played and translated into German).

[rdeford]

ByteBandit,

Very interesting analysis. Thanks for doing it. I wish to comment on it, but I desire to introduce my comments with a bit of background info.

In the past I've been pretty much a hermit in regards to my HOMM playing. I never joined any communities, and I did not play multiplayer except Hot Seat with my wife and kids. I created dozens of H3 maps for my wife and kids but never shared them with outsiders. The fall of 3DO and NWC saddened me greatly. It was an end to an era for my kids who grew up playing HOMM. I moved on to other games but the magic did not return until I played Morrowind. Wow! What a marvelous game! Then, when I found out that Ubisoft was releasing H5 I bought a copy. Loved it. Then I started making H5 maps. I immediately got stuck with the H5 editor. So, I joined communities and soon received enough help to get me going. These days, I LOVE making H5 maps, especially the scripting, which allows me to create custom game worlds where just about anything is possible. Even more, I love sharing my creations with the HOMM community.

6. Choosing the faction type maps outnumber a selective faction map almost 3 to 1. And the download numbers are more positive as well.

I can see that. I have my favorite faction, and I have a dislike for a couple of the others. But, I love to play and create story maps, where the main character almost always has to be fixed. So, what's a mapmaker to do?

7. Map author. Not important. Apparently the player is unforgiving to map makers in this category and could care less who makes them.

Personally, when I find a H5 map I really like, I get other maps by that author and try them as well. Same thing goes for books and movies. I assume others do the same. So, I ask, is this analysis really correct?

Do you make a map for you or for what the masses want to play? I choose the masses myself. But that's just me.

As with any creative endeavor, the final work is not complete without the reaction of a beholder. So, unless the mapmaker is making a map for his or her own enjoyment, the audience must be considered. Even so, for me, I don't aim for the masses with my maps. Instead, I aim for a subset of the masses who dislike "Kill 'em all" as the main objective, and dislike maps where brute force makes a winner. HOMM is a turn-based strategy game, not a FPS, and the appeal is to think and plan a strategy in addition to fight one tactical battle after another.

Finally, Sr. ByteBandit, I do not believe that you really do target the unwashed hordes with your maps, eh?