Invisibility overpowered + Starwars start!

[Jolly Joker]

You always forget that there is no creeping without spell points.

IF you've played the odd HoMM 5 game, you'll have noticed, that the level 1 stacks are FEW on 9 out of 10 maps. You could say they are non-existant except in front of your Sawmill and Ore Pit and maybe guarding a Tattered Flag or an Idol or so. Instead you'll find at least things like a horde of Demons, Marksmen, and so on.
There is no way that you beat those with a green hero and a handful of Stalkers - too many HPs to kill.
And even IF you luck out and beat one of them, losing your handful except a few, then what?

[ThunderTitan]

Invisibility can only be cast once per battle per unit stack and lasts 3 turns. Although you can split the stalkers into many small stacks and activate invisibility one stack at a time while running away from creatures, obviously not effective with archers though.

Oh, so it is limited... then it's not that much of a problem.

Plus, Dungeon is weak in the beginning because Warlocks get knowledge very hard... and their first few creatures aren't very hardy.

Of course Nival need to have some play testing about it to make sure it's not too much of an advantage if they haven't.

[Gaidal Cain]

Instead you'll find at least things like a horde of Demons, Marksmen, and so on.
There is no way that you beat those with a green hero and a handful of Stalkers - too many HPs to kill.

Well, perhaps the marksmen - with luck with initiative. Stalkers are better at shooters, or when you have something fast that you want to hit with damage spells before they reach you (and those firehounds still took out half the Stalkers). The big trouble with stalkers is perhaps rather that they offer a larger difference than most other alternatives.

[okrane]

Anyone here knows when the patch 3.1 will be released? JJ?

you said a while ago it will come out just after the game... and there have been 2 months and nothing came up... Just wandering what kind of changes will it bring...

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

You always forget that there is no creeping without spell points.

IF you've played the odd HoMM 5 game, you'll have noticed, that the level 1 stacks are FEW on 9 out of 10 maps. You could say they are non-existant except in front of your Sawmill and Ore Pit and maybe guarding a Tattered Flag or an Idol or so. Instead you'll find at least things like a horde of Demons, Marksmen, and so on.
There is no way that you beat those with a green hero and a handful of Stalkers - too many HPs to kill.
And even IF you luck out and beat one of them, losing your handful except a few, then what?

Oh no, I am not forgetting that spell caster heroes need mana to cast spells. Spell casters are my favorite. I am after all a wizard. And no IFs needed. I have played all the old HOMM5 maps oh so very many times and am quite familiar with the different factions not only for my playing of the maps of others but from my many hours of playtesting and balancing my own maps and probably playtesting about 6 or so maps for other folks.

However, as I said, I believe that a level 1 creature that can turn invisible gives the warlock a significant advantage. If Nival could care less about balancing the game furthur and just wants "neat stuff" in the game whether or not it is balanced that is fine and dandy. But it is still an imbalance that should be addressed.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

Anyone here knows when the patch 3.1 will be released? JJ?

you said a while ago it will come out just after the game... and there have been 2 months and nothing came up... Just wandering what kind of changes will it bring...

It was decided to get the Chinese version out first.

[Jolly Joker]

For he Stalker - in creeping - the only relevant stat is the initiative: the special means that the Stalker is simply as good as the hero manages to be in 3 rounds. And that's exactly what the Stalker is: a unit that will allow the hero to do damage according to his or her MAGICAL (or personal)ability without having to fear losses.

Basically this is only a unit that makes use of the hero's magical attributes and abilities while all other units profit from the heroes MIGHT attributes.
Therefore it is an interesting unit.

[albeP]

For he Stalker - in creeping - the only relevant stat is the initiative: the special means that the Stalker is simply as good as the hero manages to be in 3 rounds. And that's exactly what the Stalker is: a unit that will allow the hero to do damage according to his or her MAGICAL (or personal)ability without having to fear losses.

Basically this is only a unit that makes use of the hero's magical attributes and abilities while all other units profit from the heroes MIGHT attributes.
Therefore it is an interesting unit.

(This is nearly the same reply I did to your same comment in the official forums, but its for other people who haven't seen it. )

Thats absolutely correct Jolly Joker, I couldn't have phrased it better myself. However in 3 turns you can deal A LOT of damage with spells without taking any damage yourself. As you can see in the replay the magma dragons were nearly all dead by the time they reached the stalkers. Titans (from Infiltrator) would have been even easier as they don't even move, if you don't think you can kill them all before your 3 turns are up you can split the stalkers into 8 stacks, allowing many more turns as they just stand there taking damage.

Stalkers vs Magma Dragons Replay...
http://www.speedyshare.com/345160245.html

[Jolly Joker]

That's an AI problem.

[albeP]

thats the main reason its overpowered, i would never try this against a human player. Hopefully they change the AI to better deal with invisibility in the next patch (moving in the last known position would be an easy and decently effective fix)

[PhoenixReborn]

What I'm missing here is what stalker invisibility is overpowered compared to.

Does it actually allow a warlock to move faster than necromancer with motn and raise dead? And as GOW has pointed out before can raise high level creatures?

What about a wizard whose mark was greatly expanded with 3.0 to include things like fire trap and area of effect spells, when the wizard could already creep very fast?

Even the ranger got a boost with instantaneous imbue arrow...

so for me it isn't enough to say "the warlock is overpowered due to invisibility", I need a little more explanation.

[albeP]

At least compared to the other tier 1 creatures. Its a huge advantage in capturing mines in the first and second weeks.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

What I'm missing here is what stalker invisibility is overpowered compared to.

Does it actually allow a warlock to move faster than necromancer with motn and raise dead? And as GOW has pointed out before can raise high level creatures?

What about a wizard whose mark was greatly expanded with 3.0 to include things like fire trap and area of effect spells, when the wizard could already creep very fast?

Even the ranger got a boost with instantaneous imbue arrow...

so for me it isn't enough to say "the warlock is overpowered due to invisibility", I need a little more explanation.

I made several posts expaining some of the reasons why the stalkers are overpowered including

It means their invisibility special has given the dungeon much more power than other level 1 creatures give their factions which causes a large imbalance in the game.

GOW

[Muszka]

I made several posts expaining some of the reasons why the stalkers are overpowered including

It means their invisibility special has given the dungeon much more power than other level 1 creatures give their factions which causes a large imbalance in the game.

That's not an explanation.
I was reading trough post, and I agree JJ in this invisibility thing. It's indeed a great unit for creeping, but only with Warlock's destructive magic. Something similar can be done, with battle griffins.

[tb5841]

Even in spite of stalkers, I still find creeping easier with necropolis (no real losses when creeping) and academy (infinite mana + MOTW).

[ThunderTitan]

frankly i think that all factions should have something that makes early creeping easier, i prefer fighting against another player then the map myself.

[Dacarnix_]

Even in spite of stalkers, I still find creeping easier with necropolis (no real losses when creeping) and academy (infinite mana + MOTW).

Infinite mana? Howso?

The mana feels infinite by the time your hero has reached mid-level or so, but I can't think of any sort of infinite mana with regard to the topic at hand (early week creeping).

[Angelspit]

i prefer fighting against another player then the map myself.

So true. When I think of Heroes I-III, I see an AI player moving closer to my castle. With Heroes IV and V, I think of a long series of neutral stacks leading to the enemy player.

[tb5841]

Infinite mana? Howso?

The mana feels infinite by the time your hero has reached mid-level or so, but I can't think of any sort of infinite mana with regard to the topic at hand (early week creeping).

I always use Nur with Academy, and find it very hard to run out of spell points, but with a random hero I guess this wouldn't be true.

frankly i think that all factions should have something that makes early creeping easier, i prefer fighting against another player then the map myself.

Agreed.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Even in spite of stalkers, I still find creeping easier with necropolis (no real losses when creeping) and academy (infinite mana + MOTW).

Academy will have to sacrifice some troops for distractions in almost every single early battle. Typically gargoyles. Their low level troops do little damage and the wizard will need the delay from single stack sacrifices to win early battles.

And of course there can be a problem with early spell selection for the academy. The warlock faceds no such problem as his expertise is destruction and his guild provides those spells, all of which will be useful to him. Not all summoning spells are very useful in creeping (or otherwise) and light magic will certainly not help the wizard early (and is never very good for him.)

Academy does not have infinite mana. Necro does (and higher spell power), with mark of necromancer (plus free troops.) Rune Mage does with tap runes(and can cast rune magic whenever any of his troops can move.) It is true that Nur regenerates mana in combat, but she is the only academy heroe to do so.

Warlocks with stalkers can pretty much creep without any loses at all and take on troops that others can't early or that others will have to take large losses to tackle. Stalkers have nice initiative (12) that is higher than master hunters or arcane archers. Stalkers are overpowered in both creeping and hit and run tactics. Some stalkers can also be given to a secondary heroe for even faster creeping.

GOW