Invisibility overpowered + Starwars start!

[albeP]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

The empire is in chaos! The dark elf wizard Sinitar along with his newly formed stalker squad from the recent expansion, have triggered a wave of emergency contingency conferences among the wizards of the Silver Cities. It is known that Sinitar by the power of the wizards' divine clairvoyance has captured wood, ore and sulfur mines - the essential ingredient of his dungeon faction, in only the first five days of his arrival. As if the situation was not dire enough it has been revealed that ‘Heroic level’ trade restrictions were in place at the time. With only his new stalker squad and a limited arsenal of spells, Sinitar has demonstrated the devastating power of invisibility. With nearly unlimited supply of stalkers and more powerful types of invisible creatures arriving shortly, the balance of the empire is in grave danger…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvvq5kUEX2M

[Jolly Joker]

But without the Crystal Caverns Sinitar won't get far. Meanwhile the Silver Cities found the perfect counter against the destructive power of the Dark Elves and their invisibility: Magnet Golems who not only are unaffected by destructive spells, they may even be resurrected by them, so Nathir and a squad of Magnet Golems will seriously contest anything Sinitar can field.

[Ceres]

So invisibility is not overpowered then?

[Jolly Joker]

It's certainly powerful.
But what does "overpowered" exactly mean? "Over"powered compared to what or in which respect? In creeping? Sure, they are powerful. Untouchable for most creatures, if they go first and disappear, they will then be able to deliver one unretaliated blow. A nice weapon, especially in combination with a nice destructive spell. But I don't think they give you anything you can't do with Blood Furies as well. Generally spoken, in creeping the limits for the Dungeon heroes always have been the amount of damage they can do with their destructive spells before they run out of spell points. Going with Stalkers is better against certain types of creatures as going with Furies, but Furies are better against other types that Furies can beat without the hero needing to cast at all.
In the end? I don't know. The Assassins poison attack is pretty powerful against the high level creatures because the damage won't be modified by attack and defense, while Stalkers may be able to get an unretaliated and powerful hit against loer level units in.
Of course you can misuse them to Kamikaze basically everything you want - but that's possible with Furies as well.
Keep in mind that they MUST be extremely powerful, since they come in the same quantity as, well, Hunters, for example and Dungeon generally has no ranged troop power to speak of (or does someone pick Archery when playing Dungeon?).

[albeP]

Yes, its not effective against heroes, but it provides Sinitar with all the mines very early in the game. IMO Blood Furies dont have enough hp to withstand attacks for the price and quantity you get.

Keep in mind that they MUST be extremely powerful, since they come in the same quantity as, well, Hunters, for example and Dungeon generally has no ranged troop power to speak of (or does someone pick Archery when playing Dungeon?).

I always pick archery with Eruina (the Shadow Witch hero) since you already start with Attack. Invisibility can also be used with Eruina as she starts with Destruction too.

[ThunderTitan]

What i don't get is why he attacks with the Stalkers at all... Heroes have an unlimited normal attack... sure it's very time consuming, but it's a guaranteed win, even against heroes (take that Magnetic Golems).

Maybe they should implement a True Vision / Visions spell that can be used both in combat to reveal invisible units (maybe only for the individual units you cast it on) and on the Adv map, revealing enemy numbers (or at least approximates). Make it only learnable with Sorcery or at least one lvl in a Magic Skill as to not affect Scouting.

[RommeL_666]

What i don't get is why he attacks with the Stalkers at all... Heroes have an unlimited normal attack... sure it's very time consuming, but it's a guaranteed win, even against heroes (take that Magnetic Golems).

he just want to give a chance to the neutrals

[Jolly Joker]

Well, you need to have SOME troops, at least, and eventually they will become visible (or open to enemy fire). After that it's curtains. Sure, you CAN beat slow troops without a hero USUALLY, but it can become rather awkward under certain conditions and battlefield configurations, and it's boring like hell as well - you don't want to fight a 20 minute battle against 80 Zombiesin singleplayer mode, and you don't want to do it in MP mode either, especially not with battle-turn time limits enabled - one wrong move, and it goes bye-bye hero.

[albeP]

What i don't get is why he attacks with the Stalkers at all... Heroes have an unlimited normal attack... sure it's very time consuming, but it's a guaranteed win, even against heroes (take that Magnetic Golems).

Invisibility can only be cast once per battle per unit stack and lasts 3 turns. Although you can split the stalkers into many small stacks and activate invisibility one stack at a time while running away from creatures, obviously not effective with archers though.

[Jolly Joker]

I always pick archery with Eruina (the Shadow Witch hero) since you already start with Attack. Invisibility can also be used with Eruina as she starts with Destruction too.

I'll hang my behind outta the window and say that Archery is a REALLY bad pick for Dungeon, in general AND considering that it blocks one of the 3 attack slots.

[albeP]

I totally agree that archery is a really bad pick for dungeon... with assassins dealing mainly poison damage and shadow witches casting spells sometimes, there really isn't a real archer for dungeon. However Eruina's special ability which causes a free ranged attack when a targeted damage spell is cast (which is nearly every turn) activates a lot at higher levels [10% + 1% per hero level per cast i think it is], which IMO makes archery viable for Erunia as the other attack skills are not as beneficial for her (by chance its nearly guaranteed that you have to pick an attack skill before end of game).

[Jolly Joker]

Huh? EVERY other skill is more beneficial for her: Battle Frenzy, preparing the way for Power of Haste and Retribution, Tactics, having certain immediate advantages and paving the way for Preparation (which is a long shot, admittedly), and Cold Steel (for which Master of Ice is needed).

[albeP]

I think this is getting to much into personal playing styles now. I don't use tactics for dungeon faction as i rely mainly on spells and guarding. I don't pick Battle Frenzy for dungeon (although I do with other factions which get mainly offense skillups) because I don't like taking the risk that I am not offered Power of Haste or Retribution before the game ends, or offered too late to make a difference. As for Cold steel i pick that too when I get offered it, since i only use 1 slot of offense for Erunia i can pick it (which would nearly always be offered after archery).

I know you make very valid points and you would probably beat me online but everyone has their own playing style. I just wanted to say that Archery is not a REALLY bad pick for Dungeon.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

It's certainly powerful.
But what does "overpowered" exactly mean? "Over"powered compared to what or in which respect?

It means their invisibility special has given the dungeon much more power than other level 1 creatures give their factions which causes a large imbalance in the game.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

Not really. If you watched the trailer you'll have seen that it wasn't the Stalkers who did the work. It was the hero PLUS 2 mage guild levels build, so the hero had all 4 level 1 and 2 destructive spells, empowered.
While the fight against the Firehounds look great, in the end you'll have the same effect with Assassins: the moment they gang on them they are blasted by empowered Stone Spikes.
It's not the creatures that gives Dungeon it's power. You could do the same with, well, Zombies.
Furthermore the game isn't about who has a more powerful level 1 (or any other level) unit than everyone else. Since other creature levels are easily attainable in the beginning as well it evens out. In the long run there's still the problem that they come in very small quantities.

[albeP]

I didn't cast any empowered spells in the video, the damage to mana ratio is not worth it considering that Sinitar will use all his mana before the combat ends. I only use it after the Hall of Knowledge (? not sure on the name) is built and a few more levels are gained.

Anyway yes you can do the same thing with assassins (and I actually did this before the TotE), but assassins have less defense and hp than stalkers. Also since you are not invisible with assassins, it is a lot harder to 'soften' the enemy before allowing them to gang up on you to stone spike (or any other AOE).

As for zombies yes they make excellent 'cannon folder' but they are tier 2 creatures, blood furies in many smaller stacks are more effective IMO.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Not really. If you watched the trailer you'll have seen that it wasn't the Stalkers who did the work. It was the hero PLUS 2 mage guild levels build, so the hero had all 4 level 1 and 2 destructive spells, empowered.
While the fight against the Firehounds look great, in the end you'll have the same effect with Assassins: the moment they gang on them they are blasted by empowered Stone Spikes.
It's not the creatures that gives Dungeon it's power. You could do the same with, well, Zombies.
Furthermore the game isn't about who has a more powerful level 1 (or any other level) unit than everyone else. Since other creature levels are easily attainable in the beginning as well it evens out. In the long run there's still the problem that they come in very small quantities.

The power they give is they can become invisible while the heroe casts his destructive spells to kill the neutrals/opponent stacks. Invisibility is extremely overpowered and needs to be addressed in the next patch. It has a huge impact especially on the early game or early rushes.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

It hasn't. Sure, it's more obvious, but you'll still depend on spell points - and it was spell points that limit the Dungeon heroes before. Moreover you have to refill them once spent - without spell points your Stalkers aren't that useful.
The Stalkers don't really add anything new here - they make some things just a little bit easier and more obvious. You simply have more possibilities than without them to go at things.

[Mirez]

invisebility certainly is powerfull in the start of the game for creeping (especially against shooters) but in lategame it won't matter that much since all stalkers will die in the first attack they recieve
beside, asassins with their no retaliation penalty are pretty good for creeping aswell

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

It hasn't. Sure, it's more obvious, but you'll still depend on spell points - and it was spell points that limit the Dungeon heroes before. Moreover you have to refill them once spent - without spell points your Stalkers aren't that useful.
The Stalkers don't really add anything new here - they make some things just a little bit easier and more obvious. You simply have more possibilities than without them to go at things.

Well sure, the warlock depends on spell points like the other magic hereos. But the other magic heroes don't have a comparable overpowered first level unit. Besides truning invisible and hiding while the warlock pummels the neutrals with spells the stalkers can advance on shooters and casters without being shot if their invisibility is going to wear off before the stacks are dead. Just a huge creeping edge.

Moreover, you can easily give some stalkers to a secondary hereo who can be conquering at the same time as your main heroe for even faster creeping.

And yeah, in late game level 1s are not very important but the warlock gets a big creeping advantage with invisibility on his level 1 s and later on his shadow mistresses.

GOW