HoMM II: Which Barbarian creature would you leave at home?

[Darmani]

(All growth values include the Well and the Horde Building.)

After seeing Metathron's polls on the best creatures of each faction, I'm interested in an alternative question.

HoMM I and HoMM II grant only five army slots, yet towns produce six creatures. This forces players building single-faction armies to leave one creature behind, or with another hero. I'm interested in seeing which you all would choose to leave behind.

[Metathron]

I see no good reason why anyone would pick anything other than the goblins. Whoever voted for the trolls??

[Paulus1]

I voted for Goblins as well.
I'm really interested to hear the reason why anyone would vote for Trolls

[Metathron]

I don't see much sense in posing this question to begin with, because the answer will almost always be pretty straightforward, or it will be a choice between two creatures at the most, so a poll is really useless.

In the case of the Knight, Barbarian and Warlock the obvious answer is leave behind the level 1.

For sorceress, it's between the sprites and the dwarves. I will usually stick with the sprites for early to mid game and replace them with the beardlings after the sprites have been decimated, which actually happens pretty easily.

Wizard: When titans finally arrive, either the boars or the golems get the boot, depending on the number of the boars, the strength of the armies you're facing etc.

Necro: It might seem that any of the first three levels might get sacked here, but for me, it's pretty straightforward - zombies. You keep the skeletons because of necromancy, and you keep the mummies because they're a stronger walker than the zombies.

[dallasmavs41]

Yeah, it's a no-brainer to leave the goblins at home. I can't see too much justification for leaving any other creature at home.

[Banedon]

No self-respecting Barbarian should build single-faction armies, and those who do are asking to get destroyed by the other races' superior late-game.

This is really a no-brainer question, but in a different sense. If you're rushing your opponent and the game's going to end quickly, you won't have to make this choice. If you're not rushing your opponent then you'll gradually phase out your creatures for better replacements from other races (eg. Minotaur Kings replacing Ogre Lords). You just look at your weakest stack then and replace that. If you don't have other castles to take nor the chance to rush your opponent you shouldn't be playing Barbarian.

[Darmani]

Interesting.

It was me who voted for the Trolls. In my limited experience with the Barbarian, I've found that trolls are expensive, weak, and die way too easily for them to do much damage. In comparison, goblins are like lesser skeletons in many ways. 80 Goblins are certainly not to be shrugged off.

Although actually, I think you're right Metathron. I think my reasoning was something along the lines of "Which creature is worst," and I somehow chose to pose the question in its current form. The question might be okay for any other faction except Knight, but, considering I neglected to remember that Barbarian is one of the few factions capable of affording all its troops without any outside help, whether Goblins are a better creature than Trolls is overruled by the higher level of Trolls.

I suppose I actually do choose Goblins, though, if the Statue was removed, then I might consider actually choosing Trolls.

Curses! I can hardly believe I made this oversight. I'll need to refine the question, probably put in a clause about you playing with full handicaps.

(As an aside, I would never think of not taking Skeletons as a Necromancer. For starters, in doing so I'm forgoing anything I gain from Necromancy; additionally, I find excellent.

[asandir]

trolls are a great unit, strong and a shooter, unbelievable that they would be chosen, having said that, I will often leave the ogre lords at home, to go with a secondary hero .... taking hordes of goblins with me instead

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Voted for goblins, of course.

In the case of the (snip) Warlock the obvious answer is leave behind the level 1.

I beg to differ. It depends how many Hydras you managed to buy and if you have many centaurs left. Centaurs are a good level 1, and buying too many Hydras too early will delay the Dragons. Hydras don't help a speedy conquering hero at all. However, if you manage to get TONS of resources and you can buy out the whole Warlock castle, sure the centaurs can get the boot.

For sorceress, it's between the sprites and the dwarves. I will usually stick with the sprites for early to mid game and replace them with the beardlings after the sprites have been decimated, which actually happens pretty easily.

Agreed.

Wizard: When titans finally arrive, either the boars or the golems get the boot, depending on the number of the boars, the strength of the armies you're facing etc.

By the time I do get Titans, I don't have any halflings left. Sure, they're good shooters, but how do you manage to keep them alive that long with their measly 3 hp?

Necro: It might seem that any of the first three levels might get sacked here, but for me, it's pretty straightforward - zombies. You keep the skeletons because of necromancy, and you keep the mummies because they're a stronger walker than the zombies.

Indeed, I have yet to meet a heroes 2 player who does NOT leave the zombies behind.

With that in mind, I modified "slugfest" to have the necro starting army include lots of skeletons instead of the zombie stack - it was completely unfair not to give them skeletons and thus nullifying their main skill.

[Metathron]

In the case of the (snip) Warlock the obvious answer is leave behind the level 1.

I beg to differ. It depends how many Hydras you managed to buy and if you have many centaurs left. Centaurs are a good level 1, and buying too many Hydras too early will delay the Dragons. Hydras don't help a speedy conquering hero at all. However, if you manage to get TONS of resources and you can buy out the whole Warlock castle, sure the centaurs can get the boot.

I was considering all the choices in light of a well-developed economy, meaning you have all the cash in the world. I don't take the hydras at the beginning/mid game either, but not because I wouldn't want to necessarily, but because I just don't have the money. But in my opinion this would be a lousy reason to vote for them in a similar warlock poll.

By the time I do get Titans, I don't have any halflings left. Sure, they're good shooters, but how do you manage to keep them alive that long with their measly 3 hp?

You don't? I certainly do, though it's been months since I played the game. So, while the knight's rangers and the warlock's centaurs get destroyed, the wizard's halflings and barbarian's orcs don't. The difference lies in the fact that the centaurs/rangers are the sole shooter for the warlock, and with the AI's fixation on shooters they will always be the targeted stack. But the wizard (and barbarian), for example, is able to get another, stronger shooter quite soon (the archmagi and then the titans) and the AI will turn their eye towards the stronger shooter. Remember how fun it is to watch those castle turrets target your titans while they could be causing actual casualties among the halflings and even the magi?

It was me who voted for the Trolls. In my limited experience with the Barbarian, I've found that trolls are expensive, weak, and die way too easily for them to do much damage.

I agree with asandir's assessment of trolls - they're an excellent, kickass unit. Don't get me wrong, I like goblins, and use them plenty in the beginning of the game, but choosing them over the trolls is just madness.

[darknessfood]

Who are the idiot who voted for the trolls and Ogre Lords

[Kristo]

Can I vote for none of them? When I play Barbarian I usually don't build the Pyramid. Even after conquering someone else's castle, the answer is still not clear. It really depends on what you have left. Orc Chiefs and War Trolls tend to absorb the most damage from ranged troops. Wolves might have taken a beating pinning down enemy ranged troops. Goblins might have been sacrificed to absorb retaliation for the Ogre Lords. Pretty much the only unit I'm guaranteed to not leave behind are the Ogre Lords.

[Metathron]

You don't build the pyramid? Because you usually achieve your victory conditions before there's a need for cyclops? Because you like to save up your crystal for mage guilds? Because you plain don't like the cyclops? Aside from those, I really can't see why one wouldn't build the pyramid.

[Kristo]

I don't normally build the Pyramid because I'm focused on kicking my nearest neighbor out of his castle. I'm trying to catch the AI player at his level 4 creature or below, using everything up through Trolls. For that reason I focus my resource gathering on what I need to build somebody else's level 6 dwelling.

Exception: if both gold and crystal are abundant I might consider rushing Cyclopes and using them to liberate my nearest neighbor. In that case I'd likely leave the Goblins at home.

[asandir]

Who are the idiot who voted for the trolls and Ogre Lords

I picked the ogre lords .... and I don't consider myself an idiot, there are good reasons .... I use my main army with everything but the ogre lords to rush out and attack, and the ogre lords normally go with a second hero to liberate essential services further from home ....

[HodgePodge]

Voted Goblins

Goblins in Heroes II are only useful for cannon fodder. All the other creatures in the Barbarian lineup are actually pretty good. I love the Troll as they are ranged creatures and deliver a good deal of damage. I sometimes don't even purchase the Goblins. Why waste my gold on such a useless creature?

[Metathron]

Oh, they're not useless at all. They're actually pretty good in the beginning when you can't afford ogres yet and, along with wolves, will do a good job protecting your shooters.

[darknessfood]

Who are the idiot who voted for the trolls and Ogre Lords

I picked the ogre lords .... and I don't consider myself an idiot, there are good reasons .... I use my main army with everything but the ogre lords to rush out and attack, and the ogre lords normally go with a second hero to liberate essential services further from home ....

Well, if i had to pick a unit that stays home ill pick the weakest. Goblins die with a blink of an eye

[Darmani]

So, while the knight's rangers and the warlock's centaurs get destroyed, the wizard's halflings and barbarian's orcs don't. The difference lies in the fact that the centaurs/rangers are the sole shooter for the warlock, and with the AI's fixation on shooters they will always be the targeted stack.

I'm not so sure about the Centaurs. Warlocks have a much easier time fighting neutral shooters than other factions because they get two low-level flyers. With the high HP of the Centaurs, I often have plenty left.


As for Necromancer, for me the choice actually comes down to (Mutant) Zombies, (Royal) Mummies, or (Power) Liches.

Yes, Zombies are certainly not the greatest unit around. However, their offensive capabilities are actually average for their level, and they have a habit of accumulating. They also make decent fodder against spells.

Mummies are a higher tier, but rather poor offensively, and expensive. They do have a decently high HP though, and, as a mentioned in the thread on the map "Revolution," I found them useful in castle defense.

Liches have a high defense and, thus, are certainly great for absorbing turret fire. However, so are Vampire Lords, due to regeneration. Other than that, they are extremely weak offensively, quite expensive for being so vulnerable to direct damage spells, and suffer from the serious drawback that I often can't use them if all enemy creatures crowd around mine. Thus, they're a good choice for letting accumulate, and using separately from Vampire Lords.


Seeing all the people calling Trolls kickass, I will definitely be using Barbarian in my next several games and seeing for myself.

[Metathron]

I'm not so sure about the Centaurs. Warlocks have a much easier time fighting neutral shooters than other factions because they get two low-level flyers. With the high HP of the Centaurs, I often have plenty left.

It's true that warlocks have another way to protect the centaurs in the form of flyers, but even so, the centaurs always die in droves in my experience. It is to little avail that, say, 8 out of 10 times they won't get hit, when the 2 times they do get hit they are not merely hit but (almost) annihilated. And to be frank, I would much rather have the centaurs kick the bucket than the gargs or griffs.

As for your comments on necro, I agree heartily. It's just that if I have the money, I will almost exclusively go with the higher level creature.

Seeing all the people calling Trolls kickass, I will definitely be using Barbarian in my next several games and seeing for myself.

Yes, do that. Then again, I may be biased, I just love those guys (not just the trolls, the whole barbarian army).