TotE Is Out

[Omega_Destroyer]

This is getting out of hand. We don't need this on the front page.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

>>

Courtesy of Dexter from heroescommunity:
The developers want to make some patches for the map editor alone, so people can make more stunning maps, and campaigns like Legends of the Ancients.

<<

I'll quote myself since there was zero reaction the first time I posted this information. Dexter read this info in a polish magazine.

Is there already a thread about map editor improvements that are needed in the map editing forum?

I thought we had one but I couldn't find it so I started one here.

[Humakt]

However, despite the user unfriendliness it is quite powerful. In particular I like the terrain morphing capabilities of the editor, which far exceeds the capabilities of previous editors.

However, those who desire to make maps shouldn't let LUA scripting intimidate them as they can now find the examples of a number of maps that use scripting and can find help here at the CH Round Table Mapmaking Guild.

Terrain morphing is one of the good things in H5.

It doesn't matter how powerful LUA is as long as I can't use it in the majority of maps I make (in other words multiplayer and allied maps), until Nival decides to allow scripts in multiplayer maps or someone figures work around.

[Jolly Joker]

To moderators: I apologize for any offensive language used (if any) in this post.

Hypocrite.

Now as for the rest of your inept rationalization,

if you'd ever listened when you

studied computer science in an university, you would've known

that you should keep it simple and not hide your main body of programming -

in this case what I take is your point with a view on the actual game and not on being as offensive as possible without getting the post edited by the mods):
The map editor of H 5 could be more user-friendly and has its shortcomings

- in

a complete glob of junk.

Otherwise you could be mistaken for

an ignorant amataur who has no idea of what he's talking about.

Furthermore, while

user-friendliness is an important objective to be achieved in any professional software products,... Looks

tend to be overrated. No matter whether the

software products

are

professional

or

amataur,

another

important objective to be achieved

would be CONTENT.
Which is, what I find abundantly in H 5 and in ToE, but not in the vast majority of TT's posts and not as much as there should be in yours considering its length.

Which brings us to the reason, why TT's quotes don't make sense when you post them without context: the context consists mainly of snippets of other posts he's reacting to with remarks you can't quote by and for themselves - except, maybe the way I quote you here.

As for the question of "where do I find TT's arguments agreeable?". I am quite sure you can already spot a few hints along the way, notably the point about map editors.

The interesting thing here is that, TT doesn't even make a point about the map editor. TT said this:

>>(For example, the editor sucked with the Pre-SoD versions.) <<
So people, how is the Editor in TotE so far anyway? Any opinions?

He explicitely abstains from making a point due to his missing experience with the ToE editor and asks people about it (presumably, whether the editor in ToE has been undergone an overhaul for the better; this COULD BE discussed, of course, but probably not yet).

With regard to the question of

exiting this discussion

I'm not sure whether I want to even enter what you are calling

this discussion

whatever you mean with that.

To close this little waste of time with actual CONTENT, acknowledging the fact that it was actually me who used the phrase "map editor" first in this thread (I think, at least), no matter the actual context I did it in, and to add more statements here to give people ample opportunity for snip-quoting:
As a clarification of my personal editor experience, I made a couple of maps with the SoD editor, none with the H4 editor (since I lost the urge to play that game before I felt the urge to make a map) and no complete map for H 5 (only some sketchings and a couple of duel presets which don't really count).
Apart of not having the time to do it, my main reason not to make a map so far for H5 is the fact that I don't feel much inclined to do it as long as the game is "incomplete" or - to phrase it differently - "still subject to grave changes and/or additions in all main game areas".
Moreover, I'm not satisfied with the way the duel preset editor is working. While you can make use of it and have a lot of fun with it and all, this is one of the features that could have been better. Even a lot better.
When I checked into this matter the response was something like, Nival underestimated the amount of work necessary with it and hasn't got the time on their hands for a major overhaul. Some people have given the matter some thought - me amongst them - and the bottom line is, that it's not so easy to actually weigh everything a hero will consist of in a really balanced way. Not to mention the difficulties that you'll have once you want to have other than level 15 heroes.
As a more or less amusing sidenote, an interesting thing is, that if you enable custom duel heroes in the duel screen, some of the pre-made presets will disappear. Reason: they don't pass the editor's validity test (which means, they are illegally constructed under the editor rules). This will be subject of a patch, eventually, of course, but I doubt that the duel editor will ever become the jewel it could be. Which is a pity.

Oh, and a PS: I hope this post looks as ugly as I think it will.

[ywhtptgtfo]

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>Hypocrite.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, that's the wrong noun to use - I did mean my apology to the moderators.

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>if you'd ever listened when you studied computer science in an >university, you would've known that you should keep it simple and not >hide your main body of programming -
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Indeed, softwares should keep things as simple as possible *for the user* (i.e. minimize the need of forcing the user to use complicated methods to achieve simple tasks). This doesn't necessarily mean there must be compromises to the functionality of the programs themselves, however. You see, this shouldn't be so hard to understand.

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>Otherwise you could be mistaken for an ignorant amataur who has no idea of what he's talking about.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's okay. I understand you have this superiority complex going. I will forgive you.

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>Furthermore, while user-friendliness is an important objective to be >achieved in any professional software products,... Looks tend to be >overrated. No matter whether the software products are
>professional or amataur, another important objective to be achieved >would be CONTENT.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh come on. Are you resorting to twisting the topic of discussion just so you can dodge the argument? This has always been about user-friendliness and not "looks". If you don't understand the fundamental differences between the two concepts, please do look up their definitions somewhere...

Now, as for the issue of content, I wouldn't be so quick to pretend it has nothing to do with user-friendliness. I mean... the tools and file systems are all part of "content" right?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Which brings us to the reason, why TT's quotes don't make sense when >you post them without context: the context consists mainly of snippets >of other posts he's reacting to with remarks you can't quote by and for >themselves - except, maybe the way I quote you here.
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Please JJ. Why are you trying to give me a lecture of how little sense TT makes? I only said I agreed with him on some issues. Why are you so desperate in trying to convince me of whatever alleged wrongs TT had done?

Oh, and you are welcomed to make use of my words by the means of quotation if that saves you some writing time or serves whatever interests you have. After all, I don't have a habit of crying 5 times in a row about someone quoting what I wrote.

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>The interesting thing here is that, TT doesn't even make a point about >the map editor. He explicitely abstains from making a point due to his >missing experience with the ToE editor and asks people about it >(presumably, whether the editor in ToE has been undergone an overhaul >for the better; this COULD BE discussed, of course, but probably not yet).
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Damn, you caught me there. Yes, I did not bother to check if TT made a point about the map editor. However, this still doesn't mean I can't find any of his ideas agreeable.

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>To close this little waste of time with actual CONTENT, acknowledging >the fact that it was actually me who used the phrase "map editor" first in >this thread (I think, at least), no matter the actual context I did it in, and >to add more statements here to give people ample opportunity for snip->quoting:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I guess "snip-quoting" should adopt a new definition to accomodate the situation when someone expresses an opinion that contradicts your patriotic worldview.

The point of my original post is rather simple anyway... like... the map editor (up to HoT - never tried TotE) sucks and is horribly inconvenient to user. It's not really hard to understand and accept.

Nerds who spend countless hours with this junk of an editor can be an exception I overlooked though.

[Jolly Joker]

The point of my original post is rather simple anyway... like... the map editor (up to HoT - never tried TotE) sucks and is horribly inconvenient to user. It's not really hard to understand and accept.

I actually found that point, remember?

The map editor of H 5 could be more user-friendly and has its shortcomings.

No, neither hard to understand nor hard to accept.
You see, short post with a point, short answer.
I wonder, though, what this point is worth in the context of this thread.

[rdeford]

Hummm...



---quote---------------------------------------------

Nerds who spend countless hours with this junk of an editor can be an exception I overlooked though.

------------------------------------------------------



Nerds, eh? I'll take that as a compliment. That's how you meant it, right?

[ThunderTitan]

>>Why should I? This is no court where I have to answer questions.
MAKE A STATEMENT OF IT, not a silly phrased question designed to bring people to make statements, then I might argue.<<

Dude, just stop... is it really that hard to just use some reasoning skills to rework that question in your brain to IT'S MADE IN A FAKE GOTHIC STYLE... or are you just trying to make me insult you so you can cry FOUL or something. Seesh....

>>Much, much too flexible to be believable as stone IMO. That one image from Notre Dame isn't what I normally think of when I think of a gargoyle. <<

Ok, you wanted it more inflexible... but that's only part of it's look... and have you seen how it moves? Why does it have toy articulation?!
And it's Notre Dame... how can that not be what you think of?! I mean heck, the word gargoyle itself comes from the french gargouille... and all the french gargoyles on that page look like that. I mean i get JJ, he's German, they're supposed to hate all things french...

>>I wonder, though, what this point is worth in the context of this thread.<<

C'mon man, you and me went pretty much destroyed any context this thread had a long time ago.



Oh, and here's a statement: knowledge of programing languages is a Mod creation requirement, not a Map making one... in case you didn't eralise I am talking about the Editor...

[ywhtptgtfo]

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>Nerds, eh? I'll take that as a compliment. That's how you meant it, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



It was merely a statement to distinguish an average weekend warrior from those with tonnes of time on their hands. If you find that flattering, I feel happy for you.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Nerds, eh? I'll take that as a compliment. That's how you meant it, right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



It was merely a statement to distinguish an average weekend warrior from those with tonnes of time on their hands. If you find that flattering, I feel happy for you.

Making a quality map has always taken a lot of time to make and to playtest. After the initial investment of time to learn LUA it is not really so bad. As far as nerdhood goes, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. All kinds of folks make maps, not just the sterotypical nerd. I find mapmaking to be an interesting and rewarding hobby.

GOW

[Jolly Joker]

IT'S MADE IN A FAKE GOTHIC STYLE...

Okay, we have a statement. So what's a FAKE style? A style that ATTEMPTS to be something, but doesn't make it?
Whatever you mean, for me the main element of the H5 Gargoyle is the fact that it holds a stone slab with runic symbols in front of its face (and hits with it, hilariously). So this Gargoyle has nothing to do with spitting water - it spits knowledge, so-to-speak, or the equivalent of it.
Considering the background of the faction I find this a rather fitting adaption and wouldn't give it any style. Original Nival, Southrussian 17th century.

>>I wonder, though, what this point is worth in the context of this thread.<<

C'mon man, you and me went pretty much destroyed any context this thread had a long time ago.

Not so. I can remember the context quite well and it's still there. I'd still maintain that with ToE Homm 5 becomes a top product and that I don't like ypur way of "snip-maiming" quotes and bagn on those snips with sarcastic comments which brought this up. As I said I would have much less of problem with it if you'd make more statements the way you do it here. Which brings us to

Oh, and here's a statement: knowledge of programing languages is a Mod creation requirement, not a Map making one... in case you didn't eralise I am talking about the Editor...

Well. This is actually a point I don't want to argue about. A game with the magnitude of H 5 getting a medium budget at most will always have shortcomings. Money will be missing to pay for needed man-hours to smooth out things, fix small, but irrelevant bugs and so on. Of course it could have been better. Of course they are shortcomings. But it's all a question of how much money and time you can stuff into things, and in this case very obviously priorities are pretty clear.
For some reason they have decided to put the available money into bug-fixing and balance and expanding the game. Should they have put it into making the editor more user-friendly? No, I don't think so. Why? One reason is the RMG: they put some resources into making the tool better and it will see a lot of use, especially once 3.1 is out and water will be incorporated.
So the bottom line - for me - is that, yes, if I want to make an ambitious map I have to start looking into things. But read GOW's post, it makes some sense as well... err, I don't mean GOW's post (which mames a lot of sense), but actually that there is some need to check into things when you want to make a complex map. Not everyone who tries is bound to produce a high quality map, no matter the user-friendliness of the editor.

[rdeford]

------quote---------------------

It was merely a statement to distinguish an average weekend warrior from those with tonnes of time on their hands. If you find that flattering, I feel happy for you.

---------------------------------



Really? Look up nerd in the dictionary someday. Ignorance is not a fault, but the desire to remain so is.



I make maps for the joy of crafting and sharing them with this community. I found the H5 editor to have a little longer learning curve than some I've used, but just wasn't all that bad. And, once you learn to use LUA, you will be able to work wonders in your maps that you could not do in any previous HOMM editor. Oh, and I have to budget my time like everyone else. And, as GOW said, making QUALITY maps has always taken lots of time, be they maps for H3, H4, or H5.



Arrrgahh... I feel myself being sucked into the vortex of this inane thread. I shall extricate myself while I still have the will to do so. Goodby all.




Edited on Tue, Oct 16 2007, 16:06 by rdeford

[Sir Charles]

Quote by TT: "Ok, you wanted it more inflexible... but that's only part of it's look... and have you seen how it moves? Why does it have toy articulation?!
And it's Notre Dame... how can that not be what you think of?! I mean heck, the word gargoyle itself comes from the french gargouille... and all the french gargoyles on that page look like that. I mean i get JJ, he's German, they're supposed to hate all things french..."

Yes, I've seen how it moves. And with the bulk of the wings, I can't see any other way to manipulate it. It's not a living creature, it's an animated statue, so it 'should' move clumsily and somewhat jerky IMO.

In regards to Notre Dame...yes, that is what I think of when I think of gargoyles in general. Just not that specific one in the wiki article. I tend to think of ones that are more of one solid piece (without loose appendages). It's kinda hard to explain. But suffice to say, I like the current gargoyle and I think it's very appropriate.

[ywhtptgtfo]

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>Really? Look up nerd in the dictionary someday. Ignorance is not a fault, >but the desire to remain so is.
>I make maps for the joy of crafting and sharing them with this >community. I found the H5 editor to have a little longer learning curve >than some I've used, but just wasn't all that bad. And, once you learn to >use LUA, you will be able to work wonders in your maps that you could >not do in any previous HOMM editor. Oh, and I have to budget my time >like everyone else. And, as GOW said, making QUALITY maps has >always taken lots of time, be they maps for H3, H4, or H5.
>Arrrgahh... I feel myself being sucked into the vortex of this inane >thread. I shall extricate myself while I still have the will to do so. >Goodby all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry, but you completely demonized my point. I have great respect for those who spend countless hours devoted to making maps, but that has nothing to do with what I've been talking about. The issue is not about whether to learn LUA or not, it's about how inefficient that some of the tools have been implemented.

In other words, I've no grip about spending lots of time in the design complement of the task, but I do have a problem with wasting extra time and effort due to the huge inconveniences posed by the map editor's implementation.

Now, are we clear?

[ywhtptgtfo]

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>No, neither hard to understand nor hard to accept.
>You see, short post with a point, short answer.
>I wonder, though, what this point is worth in the context of this thread.
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The context of this thread apparently doesn't worth much anyway, or you wouldn't have mangled it into a fight with TT.

As for your answer, it would be greatly appreciated if you made it in the first place rather than going through all that crap in the first place i.e. slandering RoE's map editor just so you could 'rationalize' HoT editor's suckiness or making ridicules remarks like "Who cares about user-friendlyness"

Have fun with TT.

[Jolly Joker]

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>No, neither hard to understand nor hard to accept.
>You see, short post with a point, short answer.
>I wonder, though, what this point is worth in the context of this thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The context of this thread apparently doesn't worth much anyway, or you wouldn't have mangled it into a fight with TT.

As for your answer, it would be greatly appreciated if you made it in the first place rather than going through all that crap in the first place i.e. slandering RoE's map editor just so you could 'rationalize' HoT editor's suckiness or making ridicules remarks like "Who cares about user-friendlyness"

Have fun with TT.

You couldn't keep yourself from some nasty retaliation-kicking, could you? Yeah, just your style, I guess.
Next time you start writing crap you should read the thread properly. It looks to me, as if you just read something about "H 3 editor sucked before SoD" and got a fit. If you would have cared to READ the posts instead of start foaming, you'd have seen that this was meant as an example for how things in H 3 got better as well up to the 2nd expansion. I wasn't comparing map editors and I didn't say a word about the H 5 editor - and neither had anyone else, by the way.
But let me guess, most of this thread in general and my posts specifically are probably not user-friendly enough written to allow you proper reading.
And I further see that you cultivate the habit of snip-quoting as well, leaving out important parts of sentences and so on.

But thanks for your posts anyway. You put TTs posting certainly into perspective for me. His urge to be sarcastic, no matter what, may be annoying sometimes, but at least he is witty sometimes and his comments have the advantage to be short and concise.

Have fun with yourself.

[ThunderTitan]

>>Okay, we have a statement. So what's a FAKE style? A style that ATTEMPTS to be something, but doesn't make it?<<

Fake as in "made to resemble, in a video game"... pseudo didn't come to me at that moment. It's not really gothic because it takes some liberties with certain aspects (like no pointy arch for the writing, making the garg more squarish).

>>Not so. I can remember the context quite well and it's still there. I'd still maintain that with ToE Homm 5 becomes a top product and that I don't like your way of "snip-maiming" quotes<<

This all started with the whole revolutionary comment... and it has since move to the above (revolutionary != top product).

>>A game with the magnitude of H 5 getting a medium budget at most will always have shortcomings.<<

>>But let me guess, most of this thread in general and my posts specifically are probably not user-friendly enough written to allow you proper reading.<<

Oh man, that's just... WOW.

>>I tend to think of ones that are more of one solid piece (without loose appendages)<<

Ok, i'll keep an eye out for those... but they're really not the common ones as far as i know.

[Jolly Joker]

What's the matter, TT? Trying to double the effect of your posts or simply a nervous click finger?

[Angelspit]

I took care of it.

[ThunderTitan]

slow loading site... and the nasty part is that it only happens from time to time, in short bursts.