TotE Is Out

[Jolly Joker]

To JJ and TT, et al, involved in this thread, I desire to say this toast to all of you: "Let us look forward to the day when HOMM6 comes out. LONG LIVE HOMM!"



Can we all drink to that?

I can and I do. Cheers.

[Sir Charles]

Quote by TT: "Are you implying that the current Garg isn't done in a fake Gothic style?

And the point was that you have awful taste... man that gargoyle sucks... "

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JJ's not alone there. I also like the gargoyle. It actually LOOKS like a gargoyle from the top of a building. Making it a dragon-esque creature that flies yet "looks" like stone always seemed weird to me. Slabs of granite that's clumsily animated by mages...that's what I think of as a gargoyle.
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Quote by TT: "So no point in bothering with what wouldn't be fixed... or did they always fix exactly what bothered you? See, most of us don't have that luck..."

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For what it's worth, I've really only got 2 problems with the game as of TotE. I'd prefer a more well balanced AI and I'd prefer them to adjust the luck/morale problems (overpowered luck and morale in regards to necros). Other than that, I'm extremely pleased with the game. Now if we were living in a perfect world, I'd like to see it go back to 2d instead of a bulky 3d, but that's simply not gonna happen. So I'll live with it.

What exactly do YOU hate about the game TT? It certainly appears that you dislike it. Do you even own it? (I know a lot of h5-haters here who don't even own it yet constantly comment about it). Just curious.

[Darian Raketh]

I got my copy of ToE on Friday and have been playing it ever since. The Stronghold is a worthy addition to the game and I think that Ubisoft have done a fantastic job in finishing off the franchise. I particularily like the alternative upgrades which add a nice touch to the game. I for one will be playing this game for many a month to come.

[ywhtptgtfo]

>For example, the editor sucked with the Pre-SoD versions



Aww. It's sad to see how far you'd go just to defend your employer's product. Aside from lacking a number of options implemented by SoD, RoE's map editor UI should is still very user-friendly. This is rather unlike H5's map editor where hours can be poured in just to learn how to navigate that stupid piece of crap.



The game editor's also very disorganized when it comes to mod-designing - a probable indicator of how many amataur programmers they've hired for this.



>And lastly another of your snip quotes with a sarcastic comment.

>Cheap. And low.

>I repeat, you have nothing to say.

>[Blah blah blah]



Your last couple of posts take the structure of:



TT: [Statement]

JJ: "WAH WAH WAH SNIDE REMARKS!!!"

TT: [Statement]

JJ: "WAH WAH WAH SNIDE REMARKS!!!"



If you think TT's not making any sense, then go do something else. But then again, I wouldn't say all of his arguments are disagreeable.

[ThunderTitan]

>>It actually LOOKS like a gargoyle from the top of a building.<<

Actually not really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle H4 probably came closest...

>>What exactly do YOU hate about the game TT? It certainly appears that you dislike it. Do you even own it? (I know a lot of h5-haters here who don't even own it yet constantly comment about it). Just curious.<<

I think i raved enough about what i don't like about it for the past few years... feel free to check around.

>>Sure. Still do. A very good game is no top product.<<

Not unless it cleans the house and feed the kids too...

>>I just didn't feel the need to make derogative comments about it<<

No, you saved those for other things.

>>The next irrelevant, meaningless jibe.<<

It must be, or you'd have something to counter it with...

>>I repeat, you have nothing to say. All you do is snip-maiming other people's posts and banging some snide comment under it designed to make fun of things.<<

Because making fun of things can never ever say something... EVER.

>>Pointless and ridiculous. You can't argue about taste.<<

But you could have argued this: "Are you implying that the current Garg isn't done in a fake Gothic style?" instead you chose the line with the smiley...

[Jolly Joker]

>For example, the editor sucked with the Pre-SoD versions



Aww. It's sad to see how far you'd go just to defend your employer's product. Aside from lacking a number of options implemented by SoD, RoE's map editor UI should is still very user-friendly. This is rather unlike H5's map editor where hours can be poured in just to learn how to navigate that stupid piece of crap.



The game editor's also very disorganized when it comes to mod-designing - a probable indicator of how many amataur programmers they've hired for this.

I don't need to defend the product, and Ubi or Nival isn't my employer. I'm my own employer. This is more about the way how TT is "arguing", or better: non-arguing.
For the editor, I wasn't comparing them. I mentioned the H3 editor as an example for stuff that was a lot better with SoD than in the initial version. Who cares about user-friendlyness when there is no way to edit a map the way you would like it?
For the H 5 editor you have to invest some time in getting the hang of it which isn't so much different than with the actual game. Call me an arrogant b@st@ard, but I always thought that you should have played some time before you make a map or at least have testers who've played some time.
Anyway, if you don't like the editor in H 5 and don't want to make maps with it, fine.

>And lastly another of your snip quotes with a sarcastic comment.

>Cheap. And low.

>I repeat, you have nothing to say.

>[Blah blah blah]



Your last couple of posts take the structure of:



TT: [Statement]

JJ: "WAH WAH WAH SNIDE REMARKS!!!"

TT: [Statement]

JJ: "WAH WAH WAH SNIDE REMARKS!!!"



If you think TT's not making any sense, then go do something else. But then again, I wouldn't say all of his arguments are disagreeable.

STATEMENT? You call that STATEMENT?

Are you implying that the current Garg isn't done in a fake Gothic style?
And the point was that you have awful taste... man that gargoyle sucks...
So no point in bothering with what wouldn't be fixed... or did they always fix exactly what bothered you? See, most of us don't have that luck...
And yet you accuse me of lying... go figure.
Yeah, i know, Fabrice said we'd get more units then H3 with expansions... that alone justifies you saying that.
So people, how is the Editor in TotE so far anyway? Any opinions?
Yes, let's forgive everything based on that... [/quote)
This is the full text of TT's original comments of his last post.
STATEMENTS? Where?
ARGUMENTS? Where?

[ThunderTitan]

Sure, only quote my last post...

[Jolly Joker]

>>Pointless and ridiculous. You can't argue about taste.<<

But you could have argued this: "Are you implying that the current Garg isn't done in a fake Gothic style?" instead you chose the line with the smiley...

Why should I? This is no court where I have to answer questions.
MAKE A STATEMENT OF IT, not a sillily phrased question designed to bring people to make statements, then I might argue.

[Sir Charles]

Quote from TT: "Actually not really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle H4 probably came closest..."

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No, no, no. H4 is nearly identical to both h2 & h3's. Much, much too flexible to be believable as stone IMO. Not to mention too thin (wings & fingers for example). Those gargoyles simply look like dragon-type creatures with stone colored skin. Not actually made from stone. I realize that it's not "fearsome" looking like some people want it to, but I think it's the most realistic one. That one image from Notre Dame isn't what I normally think of when I think of a gargoyle. It's more solid and bulky. Not something that can be broken by a stiff breeze.

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Quote from TT: "I think i raved enough about what i don't like about it for the past few years... feel free to check around."

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Sorry, I don't have THAT much free time on my hands. You've got WAY too many posts to sift through. :O)

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Quote from Ywhtptgtfo: "Aww. It's sad to see how far you'd go just to defend your employer's product. Aside from lacking a number of options implemented by SoD, RoE's map editor UI should is still very user-friendly. This is rather unlike H5's map editor where hours can be poured in just to learn how to navigate that stupid piece of crap.

The game editor's also very disorganized when it comes to mod-designing - a probable indicator of how many amataur programmers they've hired for this."

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In general, I've gotta agree with Ywhtptgtfo on this one. I won't say the H5 editor is crap, but the user-friendlyness of it has gone out the window. Heck, H4's was pretty unfriendly too. It's a powerful editor, don't get me wrong (as was h4's), but it's VERY difficult to learn how to use effectively. Once you figure it out, it's a great tool. But sheesh! The interface is a nightmare IMO.

[Humakt]

For the editor, I wasn't comparing them. I mentioned the H3 editor as an example for stuff that was a lot better with SoD than in the initial version. Who cares about user-friendlyness when there is no way to edit a map the way you would like it?
For the H 5 editor you have to invest some time in getting the hang of it which isn't so much different than with the actual game. Call me an arrogant b@st@ard, but I always thought that you should have played some time before you make a map or at least have testers who've played some time.
Anyway, if you don't like the editor in H 5 and don't want to make maps with it, fine.

You have used H5 editor? How about H4 editor?

I have made two maps in H 5. Another one has almost entirely blue (of different shades) minimap despite it having islands, and no one knows the solution or hasn't bothered to answer my question in map making forum. It's functional otherwise and actually quite enjoyable map. But as it now stands, I couldn't make any of my H4 maps even if I wanted for H5. The main reason is the idiotic design of no scripts in multiplayer. You have any idea why Nival has decided to make that?

Also H5 map sizes are way too small compared to H4 and the number of different (and same with different graphics) objects are very limited compared to H4. Very little scenery in H5 compared to H4. H4 actually had enough graphics for different teleports.

H5's editor also demands lot more from computer. And in H5 you have to learn the programming language to make scripts as opposed to H4's much simpler system which was still powerful enough. Nor did all the scrips in H4 stopped to function if you had 1 small syntax error in script like H5 does.

Heroes 4 had EXCELLENT palette system and it was fully customizable, H5's just pales in comparison. H4 actually had text boxes that you could fit something into unlike H5. And H4 had pretty good Quest Huts, with variety, UNLIKE H5.

UI I can work with despite it's not as user-friendly as H3 and H4 ones. Actually I had to read the map editor documentary (which was excellent)
of H5 editor to get a good grasp of UI which just proves how unintuitive it is.

Now that all those shortcomings of H5 has been said, it does have some good things going on it. But still, it's way too INFERIOR compared to earlier incarnation.

[Metathron]

Can we all drink to that?

Most definitely!

[asandir]

I'll drink to the ending of TT and JJ's little tirade

[MistWeaver]

I fully agree with Humakt on map editors. H5 editor is a huge step back. It is very hard to make complex map in it. And yes, compared to H4 there are much less objects to play with.
However, I do like H5 script system more. Thats the only moment in H5 editor where things go faster for me than in H4, where you had to click though scores of boxes to build required algorithm.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I published 6XL HOMM2 maps, 4XL HOMM4 maps, 1XL HOMM5 map, 1 Large HOMM5 map, and have started on another large HOMM5 map(which I won't complete until I get my copy of TOTE and become proficient with it.

There is no question that the HOMM5 editor is harder to use than the previous editors. However, despite the user unfriendliness it is quite powerful. In particular I like the terrain morphing capabilities of the editor, which far exceeds the capabilities of previous editors.

Nival did make a mistake in not desiging a more friendly editor. To be honest, not a lot of folks are going to take the time to learn LUA, which is required to make more than a basic map with no scripting. Therefore it is unlikely that as many maps will be made for HOMM5.

However, those who desire to make maps shouldn't let LUA scripting intimidate them as they can now find the examples of a number of maps that use scripting and can find help here at the CH Round Table Mapmaking Guild. Post your qustions and somebody will likely help you find a solution for your problem.

[ywhtptgtfo]

The way JJ uses his forum codes is analogous to Nival's way of programming map editor: i.e. Looks like a complete glob of junk in the eyes of the user. Please don't do that again JJ.



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>I don't need to defend the product, and Ubi or Nival isn't my >employer. I'm my own employer.

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Ok, so you are protecting your client. What a noble gesture.



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>For the editor, I wasn't comparing them. I mentioned the H3 editor >as an example for stuff that was a lot better with SoD than in the >initial version. Who cares about user-friendlyness when there is no >way to edit a map the way you would like it? For the H 5 editor you >have to invest some time in getting the hang of it which isn't so >much different than with the actual game. Call me an arrogant >b@st@ard, but I always thought that you should have played some >time before you make a map or at least have testers who've played >some time. Anyway, if you don't like the editor in H 5 and don't want >to make maps with it, fine.

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No, I wouldn't call you an arrogant ******* because that isn't a fitting description of you. From this quote, I see an ignorant amataur who has no idea of what he's talking about.



If you've ever studied computer science in an university, you would've known that user-friendliness is an important objective to be achieved in any professional software products. This is especially important for entertainment softwares as their goal is to "entertain" the users and not to frustrate them. If a software is ever to have a rough UI, it's usually because it's a low-priority custom-made program, severely outdated, or exceedingly complex (i.e. modelling/simulation softwares). And of course, I kind of excluded the possibility of incompetence.



Now as for the rest of your inept rationalization, I don't think there's much to comment on. I mean, "I BOUGHT THE FUKING SOFTWARE!!! HELLO????????????". Do you seriously expect us to buy Nival's softwares and shut our traps even if they suck? Gosh.



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>This is more about the way how TT is "arguing", or better: non->arguing.

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Or is this about people who are persistently expressing unpatriotic ideas about H5?



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>This is the full text of TT's original comments of his last post. >STATEMENTS? Where? ARGUMENTS? Where?

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Please, JJ. You are quoting things out of context - much like what you've been accusing TT of. If you have any intricate level of language skills, you should've realized that I said "I wouldn't say all of his arguments are disagreeable." instead of "I found all of TT's arguments agreeable". There's a rather important difference between the two statements.



As for the question of "where do I find TT's arguments agreeable?". I am quite sure you can already spot a few hints along the way, notably the point about map editors.



Now JJ, be a good jolly boy and stop quoting TT's comments out of context. If you can't restrain yourself from doing that, you can always attempt the option of exiting this discussion.



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To moderators: I apologize for any offensive language used (if any) in this post.

[winterfate]

I'll drink to the ending of TT and JJ's little tirade

If my hunch is correct, this tirade is about to escalate...FAST!

Head for the hills!

I know this is a dumb question...but:

Can't we all just get along?

[ywhtptgtfo]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------->There is no question that the HOMM5 editor is harder to use than >the previous editors. However, despite the user unfriendliness it is >quite powerful. In particular I like the terrain morphing capabilities >of the editor, which far exceeds the capabilities of previous editors.

>Nival did make a mistake in not desiging a more friendly editor. To >be honest, not a lot of folks are going to take the time to learn >LUA, which is required to make more than a basic map with no >scripting. Therefore it is unlikely that as many maps will be made >for HOMM5.

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There's no question about the number of additional parameters that are available for modification in Heroes 5's map editor. After all, it's a much newer game than Heroes 3 and 4 (thus better technology to work with) and Nival did not run into the severe budget and time issues that NWC had to deal with in its later days. However, the way these options are made available reeks of poor design decisions (which speaks much about the development team's expertise). The syntax error issue that Humakt talked about a few posts back is an obvious instance of poor or non-existent error-handling.



So anyway. The point I am trying to make is that: What a map editor is *ultimately* capable of does not necessarily define its quality.

[PhoenixReborn]

>>

Courtesy of Dexter from heroescommunity:
The developers want to make some patches for the map editor alone, so people can make more stunning maps, and campaigns like Legends of the Ancients.

<<

I'll quote myself since there was zero reaction the first time I posted this information. Dexter read this info in a polish magazine.

Is there already a thread about map editor improvements that are needed in the map editing forum?

[Moragauth]

If I feel the sudden urge to burn some brain cells, I'll give this thread a read... :s

[asandir]

I'll drink to the ending of TT and JJ's little tirade

If my hunch is correct, this tirade is about to escalate...FAST!

Head for the hills!

it's getting somewhat interesting though