Adventure map

[DaemianLucifer]

I thought about posting this in another thread,but it differs so much that I think this is better.

What I want to talk about is the LoS on adventure map and your movement on it.It is weird that you are able too look over the mountains,unless you have flyers in your army,of course.I think that implementing different LoS for adventure map would be a good thing.The only problem is that this would better suit heroless armies,but since there is almost no chance well see them again,I think it could suit this system as well.Basically youd have three types of units:walkers,low flyers and high flyers.Walkers could see just the map with no obstacles in fron of them.So any tree,any bulding,would block their vision.Low flyers(pixies for example)would be able to see over trees and buildings,but not over mountains.High flyers(dragons and angels)would be able to see over anything.

Also,lets back into the distant past and look at kings bounty.Why is it in every heroes game that pure flying armies cannot cross forests and mountains?Of course,here the previous ideas about types could apply as well.So low flyers could fly over forests,but high flyers could fly over anything.Balancing would be needed here,but it could be done.Simply ading areas of strong winds could give many different strategies.Do you fly over that mountain and surprise him with your small group of angels,but risk loosing all of them,or walk around it,but giving your enemy the chance to get reinforcments?

[Kristo]

I like where you're going with that, but I don't think it needs to be so complicated. IMHO, mountains are really the only thing that should block your view. For any other obstacle (i.e., trees or buildings), the hero could simply order one of his peasants to go take a look. So in those cases the vision really isn't blocked. But mountains in Heroes games have been universally impassable without flight. So you can have your three movement classes, but only consider mountains when blocking vision.

To actually move over mountains, your army would have to be composed only high fliers. I don't like the high winds idea simply because I can't stand the thought of losing creatures outside of combat. (I never visited Sirens and only used Whirlpools if I had a sacrificial unit.) You can balance things by choosing who has them and who doesn't. In the current lineup, Academy would be at a disadvantage since it doesn't have any creatures I would consider to be high fliers. Conversely, Haven has two: Griffins and Angels.

Of course, all this goes out the window when somebody masters hot air balloons. Then you can safely assume that every army has a balloon brigade with it, and we're back to where we are today.

[ThunderTitan]

U guys do realize that people have been known to cross mountains on foot, right?

[Kristo]

Yes, but for an entire army to do this it is an extremely difficult task. Heck, it takes all day just to get them to board a boat. I guess I've just always accepted that if you were able to move across mountains in Heroes games, it would take longer than simply going around.

[Corribus]

Right a hero could send scouts to the tops of mountains to report what's on the other side.

And I think mountains should be impassable. Period. A good strategy game needs hard boundaries. Well, a mapmaker needs hard boundaries, anyway.

[Mutare Drake]

I like DL's idea, but don't want it so complicated. I am in full support of the idea of having walking units see only the ground and not over mountains, hills, etc. However, I think there should just be one flyer type, not too, because it would be harder to balance as someone said. Also, should an all-flying army be able to cross obstacles, I think mountains ought to be completely impassable, or there should be a way of making them so in the map editor. I don't know about the idea of having an all-flying army fly, not sure how well it would work, like with the towns that have no/weak/few flyers against those that have better ones.

[theLuckyDragon]

Yes, but for an entire army to do this it is an extremely difficult task. Heck, it takes all day just to get them to board a boat. I guess I've just always accepted that if you were able to move across mountains in Heroes games, it would take longer than simply going around.

Don't mind me too much, folks, but... Hannibal across the Alps anyone?

[DaemianLucifer]

But how much of his army did die during that time?And how much time did it take him to do that?Plus,not all mountains can be crossed like that.Himalayas for example.

[Symeon Star-Eyes]

I like DL's idea, but I think it will be too hard to implement.
Basically on account of balancing. The main disadvantage of going, or flying, with an army consisting of fliers only, is the fact that you are leaving the rest of your army behind. Other than that, I can't think of any disadvantages. This means that fliers become extremely important - much more important than any other troops. Think about it, you get the "Fly" spell for free simply by having a flier-only army.
And if mountains are to be the only insurmountable obstacles, mapmakers are going to place mountains everywhere or alternatively disable fliers in all the towns.

If it is to be implemented, the whole game would have to be redesigned, to make room for new types of landscapes where fliers would be at a disadvantage. Inside of forests for instance with an impenatrable canopy above, or caves, or an underwater landscape etc. This would of course also mean that fliers would be at a great disadvantage in combat (in these landscapes) - unable to fly.

But then you have to do this to counter that, and that to balance this and so on.
So, cool idea, but too difficult to implement I think (without redesigning some of the basics of the game).

Now, when I think about it, landscapes such as caves and deep forests (where almost no sunlight penetrates) would be kinda cool. By caves I mean caves in mountains etc, not to be confused with the underground.
I also like the thought of an undersea level with sunken ships and krakens and sea monsters and I don't know what! That would have been cool!

[DaemianLucifer]

Well there could always be an option to make the map with strong winds that prevent flyers from flying high,thus making the map a normal one as it is now.

So I dont find it that hard to implement,but it does need work.True work,not the sloppy one we see now.

[Symeon Star-Eyes]

Strong winds would work of course, but how to do it?
If you risk killing all or a portion of your creatures, will anyone dare to use it? I never use whirlpools because I don't want to lose creatures, and the larger the army you send through a whirlpool, the higher the losses.

If the winds simply deny you to pass over a mountain, that would be ok. But how do you implement it? Do you fly with your army over the mountain, get a message at the summit, saying you cant pass - be returned to the ground and loose all movement points? Should there be a spell to determine whether you can pass or not? Can the winds change at random?

How about a forest, in the middle of which there sits some relic or other, but the entrance to this clearing in the forest is guarded by a pack of Black Dragons. In your scenario you can simply take your 1 sprite or griffin and fly into the clearing and snatch that relic from under the Black Dragon's smoking nostrils. How do you easily counter that? The neutral stack of Black Dragons must surely notice your arrival - will they fly up into the air before you can land and incinerate you?

But don't get me wrong, I like your idea. It's just that I can't see how it can be properly implemented without changing a huge part of the game, or alternatively force the mapmakers to think very creatively on every map.

How about that undersea level, though? Any thoughts?

[DaemianLucifer]

It can be implemented by just tweaking a map editor a bit.All you need is a few extra layers for static and movable winds(movable winds could be asigned to patrol(better say loop)a specified area,or move randomly).Also there could be impassable winds and passable,but deadly ones.You could also have an option to cover the whole map with impassable winds.

The thing with the rellic was easily dealt with in HIV.If you snatch the rellic,you get attack by the guardian.(mobile guardians option),so that wouldnt be the problem.

But the real balance that needs to be worked on is about movement points,and other statistics of both flyers and walkers.

Also,the problem now is with chaining.It really would look silly for 10 sprites to carry a hero over a mountain.With heroeless armies this could be simple.Just prevent the hero from being carried,or assing a few units with the mountable by hero special(gryphons and dragons for example).

[Symeon Star-Eyes]

Differing winds would be ok. But how do you distinguish between one type and another? Do you right click, or try and fail, or cast a spell like "Visions"? Will the winds be limited to mountains?
How about a situation where a neutral stack is guarding a bridge, so that your walkers have to fight, but your fliers can simply cross the river. Would there be winds over the river?
If fliers are only hindered by mountains (or winds) they get such an enormous advantage over walkers, that they have to have some serious disadvantages elsewhere.

And about the relic-scenario: what if the clearing in the forest is quite large, fitting a couple of buildings, some resources, and some artifacts. This is a common enough situation. What's the solution? Lots of neutral stacks? Don't make large clearings?

And how do you balance e.g. Haven vs. Academy? Academy has only one flier - Gargoyles (or Genies if you count them, but I don't know if you do?), whereas Haven has two, of which one is a 7th lvl creature.
Would you seriously beef up the Titan, or seriously tone down the Angel's power?

And if you make the flying ability a hero special, we know which heroes people are going to choose...

But perhaps flier-armies could for the most part be balanced by a combination of winds or other obstacles (magical?), (lower stats?) and the fact that the hero will not be taking the rest of his army with him.
I still think it will be too complicated, though.

(have to go now)

[DaemianLucifer]

The winds would be just layers that you could put anywhere on the maps,so it will be up to mapmakers to decide where they should be placed.And that scenario about the clering fits this as well.

About the town balance,its not my job to do that,but developers And Id seriously weaken the angels(they are overpowered even now),and beef up the titans(they are weak even now).

[ThunderTitan]

But how much of his army did die during that time?And how much time did it take him to do that?Plus,not all mountains can be crossed like that.Himalayas for example.

But his army died mostly because of the climate and he had elephants, which i don't think are very good at climbing mountains.
And flyers wouldn't be able to cross the Himalayas either.


EDIT: O.M.G. Vin Diesel!!!!

[Malicen]

I like the idea very much. But armies with units that can only fly will be unavailable in H5 because you cannot have armies without heroes, which just have to ride horses, dinosaurs, elephants or anything. Now it would be OK to have only angels in army and a few of them would carry hero over the mountain and his horse as well, but that would not be really nice to see to be honest. Hero carried in the arms of his soldier over the mountain.
But I guess more important aspect of this problem is how to solve it. Just think how much more work would developers need to do this. Youn need to make additional scripts or whatever inside of this huge program to make the idea possible, then you need extra animations to make hero flying over the mountaon and not just go through it, etc. So I guess this would be hard for the developers to implement in the game, and they make it just plain simple then.

[DaemianLucifer]

But his army died mostly because of the climate and he had elephants, which i don't think are very good at climbing mountains.
And flyers wouldn't be able to cross the Himalayas either.

Well what do you excpect a climate in a mountain to be?Warm?And elephants are quite sturdy.The may not be able to pass through narrow pasages,but they are very resistant.Even to cold,though they are warm climate creatures.

Well some might(dragons,angels,undead,etc)

EDIT: O.M.G. Vin Diesel!!!!

Another historical figure goes down the drain know as holly crap

[wimfrits]

And elephants are quite sturdy.The may not be able to pass through narrow pasages,but they are very resistant.Even to cold,though they are warm climate creatures.

Indeed indeed. Everybody knows the Siberian elephants.

[DaemianLucifer]

Elephants tough skin makes them pretty resistant to climate,both hot and cold.The fact that they would sooner freeze than dehidrate is just because they grow up in hot climate.Bring a baby elephant to north pole and breed it.The next generation would be much more resistant to cold,even though it would neither grow hair,nor its internal organs would suffer much change.

[Kalah]

Obviously, you're no longer interested in discussing the topic at hand, so I'll close.

Oh, and elephants are very sensitive to temperature changes; that's why they have the big ears.