Looking backward: First impressions on HoMM4

[gravyluvr]

Agreed. I didn't really count Combat since the skills aren't tied to each other like in magic schools.

For Pathfinder...
GM Scouting requires Expert Pathfinding
GM Pathfinding requires Expert Scouting

Generally you need to fork into these skills and never accept the Sea skill. You will eventually take some stealth since you start with Basic Stealth. And since I get 1/4 XP of neutrals encountered, I will break away the pathfinder from the group to sneak passed level ones to flag mines and grab free XP, especially if the group can stay busy so it doesn't slow the entire army down.

Depending on the powerups and maps, I've actually rotated several Pathfinders into the army (2 by land and 1 one by sea) since I use them for adventure map more than battles. Here is where the stealth skill can pay off. On certain maps my trio (or more) of Scouts have been able to far surpass the group in levels. Plus they tend to get killed so leveling up multiple scouts keeps my army from getting too slowed down since they can be used for flagging and delivery tasks.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

The death campaign continued the trend of disappointing endings. Maybe it is a side effect of high-level heroes in H4 that causes the campaign so get dull near the end.

Anyway, after a short break, I have started the final campaign forthe base game. Map 1 is done, and here are the observations:

It took me three tries to get this map going. The first time I went too slowly, and was overpowered by every enemy hero I came across. The second try let me expand nicely, but by the time I got to the purple tent, the guardian dragon stack was larger than any force I could gather, and growing faster than my towns, so the map was impossible to finish.

The third try, I made a beeline for the tents, and the map was fine after that.

I was happy that for the first time in a campaign, on the first map I could build any dwellings I wanted in my first town. Unfortunately, that feeling disappeared quickly when I found that there were no other chaos towns on the map. This, combined with the complete lack of magic skills (I got nature from a witch hut, but otherwise never got offered a magic skill, so the chaos magic is worthless; no map site offered chaos either) meant that this campaign is turning out to be more "might II" than chaos. Indeed, my ending force had more thunderbirds than dragons (even proportionately speaking for the growth rates), and more cyclops than nightmares (even with the two dwellings flagged!)

I have yet to have stealth do anything for me - and I tried several times, each time getting my hero attacked and killed (as there were no other troops with her) I eventually gave up on trying, and have not bothered to improve the skill since.

Back on the positive side, there is a bit more to do on the water than in other Heroes games, but since I had seen most of it in earlier campaigns, there wasn't too much new for this one. At least the map provided the captain's hat (or whatever the artifact that lets you board a ship without using all movement is called) early on, so island hopping wasn't too bad.

Until I get the chance to compare more, I can't comment on the creatures in the chaos town. Preliminary looks indicate to me that medusae are very important units, but I cannot do comparisons yet.

More to come when I get further along.

[Jolly Joker]

You are in danger of wasting away what is easily the most interesting faction in the game. Your thief has to develop Stealth. The trouble is, that only ADVANCED Stealth will start things going. That is, you need to gain TWO levels (you need Advanced Scouting for Advanced Stealth.
With ADVANCED Stealth you can pass all Level 1 monsters (adjacent to them) which will give you a portion of the experience you'd gain when you'd kill them in battle, so you can make a lot of extra XP and develop a nice Thief. Expert Stealth will allow that for level 2 creatures and so on. Get Nature Magic (this will make you a Bard) and a couple of decent Summoning spells and you have a nice fifth column.

[ThunderTitan]

To see what the Stealth skill can do play Agrainel's campaign in tGS. You get it for free on GM in the first map, makes for the easiest campaign ever.

[Metathron]

Be warned, however, that the stealth skill won't help you when the monster stack is blocking a very narrow pathway.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I just reread the description of the stealth skill. I think I was mistaken about how it works (which would explain why I couldn't get it to work). Since my heroes still have quick levels, I will try to develop it a little better.

Question: if a party consists of only heroes, and they all have stealth, can they slip past creatures, or do they have to go one at a time?

[HodgePodge]

Question: if a party consists of only heroes, and they all have stealth, can they slip past creatures, or do they have to go one at a time?

If all the heroes in one party have the Stealth Skill at the same level with no creatures, they can all sneak past creature stacks & enemy armies, depending on how high their Stealth Skill is and what is the level of the creatures.

With GM Stealth, your heroes (with GM Stealth) can slip past any army on the adventure map, including very powerful & huge armies with or without other Heroes … unless that enemy hero also has GM Stealth. (However, I've never had an enemy Hero attack my GM Stealth Hero(es) even if they did have GM Stealth.

Also the only time GM Stealth won't work is when an army is blocking a path and ther is no room at all to pass. You may have noticed if your Stealth Heroes slip past enemy/neutral armies, they receive experience points for using their Stealth Skill. The bigger & more powerful the creature stack, the more experience points your Stealth Heroes will gain.

[Corribus]

Also the only time GM Stealth won't work is when an army is blocking a path and ther is no room at all to pass. You may have noticed if your Stealth Heroes slip past enemy/neutral armies, they receive experience points for using their Stealth Skill. The bigger & more powerful the creature stack, the more experience points your Stealth Heroes will gain.

The best thing to do was to sneak by the creature, get xp for that, then beat the creature, and get xp for that.

[HodgePodge]

Also the only time GM Stealth won't work is when an army is blocking a path and ther is no room at all to pass. You may have noticed if your Stealth Heroes slip past enemy/neutral armies, they receive experience points for using their Stealth Skill. The bigger & more powerful the creature stack, the more experience points your Stealth Heroes will gain.

The best thing to do was to sneak by the creature, get xp for that, then beat the creature, and get xp for that.

Precicely my strategy too.

[Meandor]

unless that enemy hero also has GM Stealth.

I haven`t played H4 for some time but wasn`t that GM scouting instead of GM Stealth?

[wimfrits]

Since my heroes still have quick levels, I will try to develop it a little better.

Would be a waste of skillpoints. Stealth is nice when your hero is still a low level. You can pass difficult stacks and gain extra experience.
The experience bonus wears out at higher levels and you'll eventually be sorry you didn't invest those 5 skillpoints in a skill that helps you win battles, like GM combat.

Furthermore, because stealth only works when not travelling with creatures and your hero definately wants to travel with creatures because of the movement bonus, stealth creates a lot of micromanagement to work properly. Remove hero/creatures from army, move hero towards neutral stack, have creatures join hero, attack neutral stack. That's 4 actions instead of 1 (attack stack). That kind of micromanagement does not justify the (barely needed) experience boon.

The only time stealth is worth the investment is when you get it for free

[Humakt]

The only time stealth is worth the investment is when you get it for free

Stealth is rather map specific skill, but in some maps it is golden to grab artifacts and gain control of mines earlier and without any troop losses.

And you don't need to run the thief on your main army anyway.

[Jolly Joker]

Exactly. A thief for me was always an extra to enjoy separately. Send him scouting out, grab mines and artifacts and sneak into the opponent's territory, maybe even grab some. It's just fun.

[pacobac]

on multi player game, you need pathding !!! (very important to have beter move), stealth is never used, to have a battle thief, we built early an advanced classe, the easier are: Fire Diviner or ninja (very good ninja, only with bow).

we can use stealth on few map..... but yes it's funny.......

[Qurqirish Dragon]

Question: if a party consists of only heroes, and they all have stealth, can they slip past creatures, or do they have to go one at a time?

If all the heroes in one party have the Stealth Skill at the same level with no creatures, they can all sneak past creature stacks & enemy armies, depending on how high their Stealth Skill is and what is the level of the creatures.

Thanks. So it works the way I hoped it did.
I think I read somewhere that you get 1/4 the experience that defeating the stack would give.

@ corribus:
I already figured the sneak-by-then-fight strategy would work nicely, but in campaigns there has so far almost always been way more experience than the max allowed (so I haven't been taking experience from chests, even at low levels). Perhaps in single maps this strategy would be more worth it.

[Corribus]

I already figured the sneak-by-then-fight strategy would work nicely, but in campaigns there has so far almost always been way more experience than the max allowed (so I haven't been taking experience from chests, even at low levels). Perhaps in single maps this strategy would be more worth it.

Yeah that makes it less useful. The best is to have a thief with combat skills. That really reduces the micromanagement necessary. Because of the ridiculous unbalance of high level might heroes in H4, a stealth/combat expert can sneak by the creature, gain experience, and then attack the stack and take out the whole army himself. I always managed to get ridiculously high level thiefs this way.

[Bandobras Took]

Since my heroes still have quick levels, I will try to develop it a little better.

Would be a waste of skillpoints. Stealth is nice when your hero is still a low level. You can pass difficult stacks and gain extra experience.
The experience bonus wears out at higher levels and you'll eventually be sorry you didn't invest those 5 skillpoints in a skill that helps you win battles, like GM combat.

I'm going to cordially disagree, since we're talking about the Chaos campaign. You start with two Thieves, and giving Pete Girly GM Stealth while ignoring the Stealth path with Tawni means that on the following maps, you can have Pete Girly flaggin every mine in sight before you even capture a town.

I'm not sure I'd invest in Stealth for both heroes, but doing it for one seems a good choice.

[wimfrits]

You start with two Thieves, and giving Pete Girly GM Stealth while ignoring the Stealth path with Tawni means that on the following maps, you can have Pete Girly flaggin every mine in sight before you even capture a town.

Still, it is 6 (I missed 1 earlier) points invested in a skill that does not help you win battles. Those 6 points spent in a different way means you can fight your way through instead of sneak your way through. Especially in the early levels, skill choices are crucial in determining your hero's ability to win battles. And 6 combat-effective skills make a very big difference.

My experience is that Pete (and Tawni) can be a 'one-(wo)man-army' in map 2; if they skip stealth. So, although I agree a GM stealth hero can be fun, I really do not think it to be an efficient way of playing, except in some highly specific maps.

[ThunderTitan]

Give Pete Girly Stealth.. you'll be thankful you did later.

[Metathron]

Shhhh...

(You can always develop GM scouting...)

Anyhow, I love the Chaos campaign, it's full of excitement and adventure, and the maps are very well laid out and attractive.