Necropolis alternative upgrades are up now...

[Wolfsburg]

This was just an example guys. It is quite clear to everyone that planning strategies before the game comes out is like building castles of sand. And please, watcher dont take me wrong for my comments.

The only point I wanted to make is that, as JJ said, The Lich master ability gives your hero the chance to cast other spells, offensive spells for example. Because they would be in charge of performing those small strategic "ressurections" (raise dead).

About Necromancy: Of course, be able to ressurect them in small amounts from the battle field would be perfect (nice combination with eternal servitude), but that once and again depends on the new system.

[watcher83]

I get what you say, is just that (I may be wrong) I feel losing a tier 5 shooter for raise dead doesn't quite cut it.

[Wolfsburg]

I on the other hand, think that raise dead used by an undead troop = archangel´s ressurection for a lvl 5 tier.

The only ability that sounds quite boring is the sorrow strike of the horror dragon (which sticks to the tradition of giving us necromancers stupid lvl7 creatures). If it is what its named after: Casting low lvl sorrow on single units with each attack while the Titans and Dragons tear my troops apart, Archangels raise their fallen, doesnt quite convince me.

I was hoping for ethereal form (like ghosts). This would rock for a lvl7.

And whats with the name? Horror Dragon?

[PhoenixReborn]

I on the other hand, think that raise dead used by an undead troop = archangel´s ressurection for a lvl 5 tier.

Yeah, I've always felt the archangel should get 3 ressurects.

[Adicto]

@Wolfsburg:
You strategy has a BIG weak side: lich masters can cast raise dead 2 times only. They have 19 spell points.

If you're going to use them just like support casters you will be wasting their huge combat stats. They are close combat specialists.

I guess it will be better to raise basic lichs via necromancy and to buy later lich masters in your castle. If you place them together, lichs will be very well protected.

[Orfinn]

Because it basically just means vampire. is a nosferatu really an upgrade to a vampire?

It should be Vampire Count.
And I like thier paleness, but not the white cape, it should be gray or black.
Wonder if they turn to bats when attacking and/or moving?

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Oh yes Im glad no mpre power lich, jeeez isnt it obvious that a lich has power?? Master Lich fits very well because he IS the master over his raised fellas thanks to his raise dead spell!

The pink colors...well some of them aint pink but purple, but the difference may be unclear. I only see the eyes and the colors of the banshee, h-dragon as pink, make em purple (IMO the color of darkness) and deepen the colors (on their gear) some more.

I like these name s very much and the looks to, i thought and hoped for a sword for the Skeleton, but now I see Nival want to be different, Haven has enough swords for our eyes.

Specials and stats looks great but I hope they will be balanced so we have the CHOICE, THE alternative TO WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGT go for the first upg lineup.

[ThunderTitan]

Because it basically just means vampire. is a nosferatu really an upgrade to a vampire?

If you want to be precise it doesn't mean anything really... plus it's not the first time it's been used to denote a certain type of vampire.

[Orfinn]

My idea of the fix would be the following:

if there are free slots in the army raise only the basic unit.
if the army contains Nosferatu, raise Nosferatu and so on...

This would be the best

Yeah! Completely agree with your there. Weird but somehow I have a feeling Nival will do that...

or even better than this you get to choose. For example:

You fight some berserkers: they raise vampires.
You get a menu that asks what type of vampire you want to raise: the numbers can differ. For example:

Do you want to raise 6 vapires or 5 vapire lords or 5 nosferatu?

Another nice idea for raising undeads

[Jolly Joker]

Sure, make it easy and boring for Necropolis. Give them any chance to build their army any way they like it. Brillant ideas. I wonder whether you've ever played them seriously.
Adicto, I'm really interested in YOUR opinion here.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Precisely.
The only snag is the fact that you may get the Lich upgrade rather late.
And here Raising comes into play. If you manage to Raise 2 or 3 of them EARLY in the field your hero is free to cast other spells - Dark spells preferably.
This is a point where Necropolis is vastly different from anyone else (if done correctly by Nival, that is): while everyone else will be able to enjoy the tactical subtleties of the higher level creatures' double upgrades more or less late (when do you upgrade a level 5 or 6 unit or even 7), Necropolis can raise them and gain access very early which should be advantageous.

Yes, too advantageous. Raising high level creatures and upgraded high level upgraded creatures may be neat but it is imbalancing.

GOW

[okrane]

ok... for a moment let's do it your way. What would this bring: endless chaining to the town in order to retrain the troops, or as the dark energy is scarce, just refuse the troops you don't like and move to the next one.

Leaving all aside, here's how I think Nival will do it:

All creatures from HoF will be unchanged.
The alternate upgrades will be raised as the corespondant necro alternate upgrades.

End of story... sounds like nival right?

[Wolfsburg]

@Wolfsburg:
You strategy has a BIG weak side: lich masters can cast raise dead 2 times only. They have 19 spell points.

If you're going to use them just like support casters you will be wasting their huge combat stats. They are close combat specialists.
...

Thanks for the remark, Adicto!

But there are some reasons why I imagine Lich Masters arent designed to be used straight in Melee combat. And ill mention them quickly.

1 - Melee fighters die. They get retaliations, they penetrate the enemy lines and take their punishment. When were speaking of high lvl creatures, which come in small amounts per week its not new that every single loss hurts.

The Modifications on the new lich: they got a really nice HP buff (55 to 70), a super Att + Def buff (both 19 to 22) and light Dmg increase (16-20 to 17-20). That makes them (if compared to the other lvl5 tiers) one of the best allpurpose units for close combat. So why dont use them in that way?

Because you dont have to. Your front fighters are vampires lords and wights. Because? They dont die. Use raise dead spell + lich masters wisely and you will prevent small losses that would otherwise ruin your troops.

2 - They´re are damn nice fighters. Agreed, they will do the same wondeful job soaking massive amounts of punishment (def 22 + 70hp) and retaliating with cunning damage (att 22 + 17-20 dmg). But their place is on defensive battlefield. They need to be played more intelligently than mere squires, supporting your infantry before they go for action.

3 - When would I act offensive with them? Only when I have overkill on the targer creature, or its reataliation was used (zombies, hehehe) and there are no more support spells to be cast. (Remember necros dont have such a high att skill, their strenght lays in numbers)

Gosh, im quite anxious for ToE it wil be cool to put the lichies for test!

[Orfinn]

their strenght lays in numbers)

Guess the orcs will do the same. The might way.

[Adicto]

@Wolfsburg:
Lich Masters must be used mainly as melee tanks. They don’t have the right spells/skills to be able to stay back.

Let’s make a comparison:
10 Lich Masters have 700hp, 22df, and deal 340-400 points of damage against a 0df creature.
6 Pit Lords have 720hp, 21df, and deal 163-390 points of damage against a 0df creature.

But Pit Lords have powerful offensive spells. Lich Masters only have Raise Dead (Weakness is there for filling it), a spell that is useless unless one of your stacks is nearly defeated (remember, -20% overall hp), so what will you do in meantime? Sit there doing nothing? That is a waste of turns! Lich Masters can’t shoot, so you will charge with them till you need to cast Raise Dead or till an enemy creature gets close enough to feel the pain, whatever happens first.

If you hide your lich masters behind some zombies you will trap yourself. Safe positions are meant for shooters and weak casters, not for fearsome melee monsters.

And getting Lich Masters in low numbers just for support is really a bad idea: you will decrease -20% the overall hp of the whole targeted stack just for bringing back a couple of creatures. It is pretty much like a self-weakening tactic.

Adicto, I'm really interested in YOUR opinion here.

Everytime I play my weekly DE gets depleted in just 1 combat, the one I've planned a week before, so I don't think that +7 new raisable creatures will affect seriously the homogeneity of my undead army.

In addition, as far as I know you will be able to "retrain" the upgraded creatures, so I think it is ok if Nival keep the actual necromancy system.

[Wolfsburg]

Lich Masters must be used mainly as melee tanks. They don’t have the right spells/skills to be able to stay back.

We shall see!

But one thing is quite clear. The unit itself is not underpowered like some say.

Let’s make a comparison:
10 Lich Masters have 700hp, 22df, and deal 340-400 points of damage against a 0df creature.
6 Pit Lords have 720hp, 21df, and deal 163-390 points of damage against a 0df creature.

You have forgot to mention that they are slow as plague zombies (3 turns to reach opponents ranks) and have the initiative rate of skellies. That means, they are too slow for raiding and have too low hp to be used as tanks (7 banshees = 770hp with much more speed, initiative and damage output). That also means they will show up quite rarely on the initiative bar while getting owned by the faster opponent units.

If you hide your lich masters behind some zombies you will trap yourself. Safe positions are meant for shooters and weak casters, not for fearsome melee monsters.

Zombies will prevent the large opponents from reaching the slow Masters thus taking retaliations for them.

And getting Lich Masters in low numbers just for support is really a bad idea: you will decrease -20% the overall hp of the whole targeted stack just for bringing back a couple of creatures. It is pretty much like a self-weakening tactic.

Once and again, we shall see, but remember that the other possible upgrades are Archliches (still one of the best lvl5 units). Im not wasting my weekly stack of them, converting them to Masters just to be used as mediocre wights.

[Adicto]

You have forgot to mention that they are slow as plague zombies (3 turns to reach opponents ranks) and have the initiative rate of skellies. That means, they are too slow for raiding and have too low hp to be used as tanks (7 banshees = 770hp with much more speed, initiative and damage output). That also means they will show up quite rarely on the initiative bar while getting owned by the faster opponent units.

I think you haven't understood me: you cannot hold the ground with lich masters because there is nothing to protect with them, and Raise Dead is only useful when you've already taken heavy casualties.

Trying to protect lich masters with zombies is like trying to protect pit lords with horned overseers. What is the point of protecting from melee combat a unit who is one of the best melee units? Lich Masters are there for taking the punishment that otherwise would be taking wraiths and vampires. You will slowly charge with them (they have 10ini after all, not bad), so the enemy will have to choose between killing wraiths, vampires, spectres or lich masters, 4 durable melee creatures who only die against focused fire (necro philosophy: take hits till the enemy kills himself, lol).

Of course some changes will be made, and we don't know if Banshees' new ability is some kind of ranged attack, so as you said: we shall see.

[Wolfsburg]

Well Adictio, Id love to discuss it further with you as soon as we experience the game and draw real conclusions! That would be neat.

Now lets move to a subject that can actually be discussed, even when the game was still not released.

Do you guys also think developers could have gone a little bit further with the appearence modification of the necro creatures?

I mean painting the ghosts pink and saying thats an alternate upgrade sounds somewhat disappointing. Same armor same glowing eyes, etc, etc.

I imagined the lichs would come with a circlet instead of a huge carnaval-helmet variation. I know the models are always the same creature, but some small efforts would make a big difference, you know? Really details. Such as changing a little bit the armor of the ghosts, or the scythe of the banshee (as already suggested...), or for christ sakes give the nosferatu a nosferatu-appearance (bald and menacing)...

[Elvin]

Well I would want to see that for all the alternatives, not just necro...White unicorn and rainbow dragon for instance are just recoloured.

[ThunderTitan]

I mean painting the ghosts pink and saying thats an alternate upgrade sounds somewhat disappointing.

Welcome to Ubival land... enjoy your stay.

[RommeL_666]

I mean painting the ghosts pink and saying thats an alternate upgrade sounds somewhat disappointing.

Welcome to Ubival land... enjoy your stay.

is it so difficult to improve a little bit,or they are just to lazy?

well from all others upgrades I must say that this ones looks to me the best and the most advanced(new abilities). Why did they put the name Horror for dragon? it seem a little odd...