Necropolis alternative upgrades are up now...

[Jolly Joker]

I disagree. Because the current system makes Necromancy map-unrelated which is a big leap forward.

[Corribus]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[Metathron]

For some reason, the Diseased Zombie has a really stupid hair cut.

It's supposed to serve as a distraction and as such should be listed under its abilities; Whilst you are gripped in the throes of maddening laughter, the zombie slowly but surely makes its way towards you, thus making up for its sluggishness.

On a more serious note, is the addition of Raise Dead to the new lich's arsenal good enough to make up for the loss of ranged power?

[Corribus]

Maybe it's not a raise dead SPELL. Maybe it's a power that doesn't require spell points?

[Omega_Destroyer]

I doubt it. It'll probably be like all the other casters.

[Corribus]

Yeah but why would they list it as a special power? They don't list other casters' spells.

[Omega_Destroyer]

From the official site.

Lich Master: Large Creature, Undead, Caster (Raise Dead, Weakness).

Shadow Mistress: Invisibility, Caster (Slow, Disrupting Ray, Bloodlust, Forgetfullness), Whip Strike.

Druid: Shooter, Caster (Stoneskin), Power Feed.

[Corribus]

Ok nevermind.

[Jolly Joker]

If you let Necromancy simply raise a number percentage, the number of raised skeletons (as was to be seen in H 2) depends solely on the map and the stacks on it. Week of the Peasant would be a big deal here while a map with many high level creature stacks (with lesser numbers) automatically reduce Necro effectivity.
With the Dark Energy system this cannot happen. The amount of raised creatures is limited by the amount of DE you have. Of course you could simply limit the amount of Skeletons raised as well, but then it would obviously be rather boring. The way it is now you have a limited capability to pick what you want to raise since you cannot raise that many higher level creatures. Since you can raise upgraded and unupgraded creatures this makes it fairly interesting because you have a ton of options how to go at it and "solve" the logistics behind it.

I know that people will probably disagree, but I hope that with the alternative upgrades the Necromancy system will be expanded so that you can raise 21 different creatures making it more difficult to get a coherent army and not a riffraff of a few of this and that.

[Adicto]

The Lich Master worries me... he is really tough and dangerous in close combat but very slow too, and only has Raise Dead and Weakness, 0 offensive spells, so his role is meatshield. The question is: Who needs another meatshield since you cannot get a legion of sk.archers anymore? I think he needs Decay or something like that.

[King Imp]

I know that people will probably disagree, but I hope that with the alternative upgrades the Necromancy system will be expanded so that you can raise 21 different creatures making it more difficult to get a coherent army and not a riffraff of a few of this and that.

This brings up a good point. I hate to be negative, but frankly I have little faith in Nival's ability to see problems before it's too late.

How will the new Necromancy work with these extra upgrades? What will be the requirements to raise Plague Zombies over Disease Zombies? Or raising Vampire Lords over Nosferatu?

I sure hope they have taken this into account before releasing the expansion and then have to fix it with numerous patches.

[okrane]

My idea of the fix would be the following:

if there are free slots in the army raise only the basic unit.
if the army contains Nosferatu, raise Nosferatu and so on...

This would be the best

[watcher83]

the lich master is seriously underpowered( I don't care about his stats, losing ranged and death cloud is huge, and besides spells aren't better than for archlich, add to that a very low speed...you get the picture)

[okrane]

My idea of the fix would be the following:

if there are free slots in the army raise only the basic unit.
if the army contains Nosferatu, raise Nosferatu and so on...

This would be the best

or even better than this you get to choose. For example:

You fight some berserkers: they raise vampires.
You get a menu that asks what type of vampire you want to raise: the numbers can differ. For example:

Do you want to raise 6 vapires or 5 vapire lords or 5 nosferatu?

[Jolly Joker]

My idea of the fix would be the following:

if there are free slots in the army raise only the basic unit.
if the army contains Nosferatu, raise Nosferatu and so on...

This would be the best

See, that's what I mean. No, it would NOT be best. Why make things easy?

[okrane]

because I'll will get to chaotic otherwise...

[Wolfsburg]

the lich master is seriously underpowered( I don't care about his stats, losing ranged and death cloud is huge, and besides spells aren't better than for archlich, add to that a very low speed...you get the picture)

I am not sure if I agree with you Watcher. You and some others are thinking of the lich masters at a merely combat-damage effectiveness point of view. But you are underestimating the function of the so called support units. Playing against me you would probably see the following configuration in a early-mid game:

#One Big stack of arch liches
*One Big stack of skeletons archers
#Some small Zombie stacks as meat shield
#One small stack of Lich Masters surrounded by these zombies
#Some few Wights

Vampires will be probably waiting in my necropolis till they´re enough in number to make your life hard.

Possible tactics: Wights act quite early, and they will go for your archers independent of your ground forces. Since Tactics is an obligatory skill for me, that means they will soon be getting to your archers. If you didnt protect them, possibly on the first round.

My Lich Masters will be quite peaceful and on Hold surrounded by my fat decaying zombies.

My skeleton archers and liches will be doing what they do best. Wreaking havoc on your ranks from safe distance.

Lets suppose you go for my wights. You will have to waste some shots. They have immense vitality and will only die with concentrated fire power. My Archliches and skelies will take that in account as they keep firing. In the end when you think youre done with my wights and have freed yourself. Ill ressurect them with my Lich masters right adjacent to your archers and take one more round of your shooters.

My Arch liches and skellies will appreciate that.

If you go for my Arch liches with your remaining troops I will ressurrect them (both with my own spells as with my small stack of Lich Masters).

Then you go for my Lich Masters instead! That means, 1 - one more round for my shooters to fire and 2 - just matter of time till I bring them back with Raise Dead Spell and reiniciate the cycle with their own spells. (That supposing that you already managed your way trough my light zombie walls).

What I imagine for them: Units that will constantly be on Hold. That are able to cast even if the adversary is on the adjacent square, and will never get in hand-to-hand combat unless theres absolutely no other choice for victory. As their counterparts (Arch Liches) their best spell effectiveness value is by means of small stacks. Their solo funtion will be to boost necropolis early-to-mid game, by preventing losses.

[Jolly Joker]

Precisely.
The only snag is the fact that you may get the Lich upgrade rather late.
And here Raising comes into play. If you manage to Raise 2 or 3 of them EARLY in the field your hero is free to cast other spells - Dark spells preferably.
This is a point where Necropolis is vastly different from anyone else (if done correctly by Nival, that is): while everyone else will be able to enjoy the tactical subtleties of the higher level creatures' double upgrades more or less late (when do you upgrade a level 5 or 6 unit or even 7), Necropolis can raise them and gain access very early which should be advantageous.

[watcher83]

your strategy looks good on paper but in a real game against a dungeon player like myself... your raise dead from the lich masters wouldn't count against some hit and runs, neither would tactics, you'd do much better with only archliches

[PhoenixReborn]

your strategy looks good on paper but in a real game against a dungeon player like myself... your raise dead from the lich masters wouldn't count against some hit and runs, neither would tactics, you'd do much better with only archliches

Sure, but that's like saying hit + run looks good on paper but it wouldn't work against my shackles of the last man.

We won't know about this theory stuff until the game comes out. Me, I'm hoping for some magic dampening artifacts, and it seems likely with the orcs being so anti-magic.