Deconstructed, Part 3

[Angelspit]

<img src="/https://www.celestialheavens.com//image ... n_Pala.jpg" align=right vspace=10 hspace=10>Corribus continues his bit-by-bit analysis of Heroes of Might and Magic V in the third part of the Heroes V, Deconstructed series. Each section has a separate thread where you can discuss the corresponding game elements.



<center><a href="/https://www.celestialheavens.com/688">Part 1</a>: graphics | <a href="/https://www.celestialheavens.com/689">Part 2</a>: gameplay | <a href="/https://www.celestialheavens.com/690">Part 3</a>: skills</center>



Reading this brings back memories of Spring 2006, back when I first tried Heroes V. Which parts of the game do you like more or less than when you first played the game?

If you would like to take a look at the original page visit this link:
https://www.celestialheavens.com/690

[MistWeaver]

>H4’s story was very weak, with no unified plot



Totaly disagree with first part. Yes campaings are not unified. So what ? You want another "saving the world" story that no one belives in ? - you got it back in H5.

And those 6 original campaigns of H4, with well written characters and their fates I find of much bigger interest. And even they are not unified, in the end, you got much more detailed picture of that world.
Edited on Tue, May 29 2007, 10:27 by MistWeaver

[ThunderTitan]

I was going to comment on C's awful taste in stories, but then i remembered he only read Dune for the ecology stuff, so why bother.

And it's been a year already?! How time flies when you're not playing the game.

[Corribus]

@MistWeaver



For me the jury is still out on H5's story. I'm only about halfway through it, so it's sort of unfair for me to judge it yet, which I why I did not say much. In the spirit of "first impressions" though, all I can say is that my reaction is fairly neutral. None of the HoMM games have had very great stories, so my standards are pretty low.



With regard to H4, I have nothing against that game's story per se, but it wasn't fabulous either. The different campaigns had little to nothing to do with each other, and so I disagree that you get a detailed picture of "the world", at least not from a global perspective. Like the other HoMM games, it served to get you from one map to the next, but really nothing more. I never found myself going, "Gee I can't wait to get to the next map to find out what happens next!" That is what I'm really looking for in a story, and I have yet to find it.. in ANY of the core HoMM campaigns.



@ThunderTitan



As usual, I have no idea what you're referring to.

[ThunderTitan]

If i wasn't so lazy I'd have you pick a story you consider great and proceed to show you why you're wrong.

[kingcranium14]

The story is okay, but it doesn't always make that much sense. I'd prefer something more like a war, to explain the number of troops that are absent from the cutscenes.



The skills are great, but I think it would be better to somehow combine H4 and H5 so that there's cool abilities with depth.



The creatures are okay, I think the alternate upgrades will add some depth.

[nevermindspy]

You hit a nurve and quite a nurve it is , simply put you can't have a hero of might AND magic based on your choice , Every faction has its charctaristic and well your stuck with it , For example you can't use destructive magic with haven properly , Can't use war machines with sylvan and ect ect , Simply sux.

[Corribus]

@ nevermindspy

That's a shame if it's true. One of the things I liked about H3/H4 was that each faction could be played both from a might or magic perspective. I don't like if I'm forced to play a magic-oriented hero just because I choose necropolisc, for example.

[HodgePodge]

I really liked how the Heroes IV stories are seperate and distinct from each other. I also liked the option of playing them in any order and where one wasn't dependent on any of the others.

It's perfectly okay with me if the storyline isn't "global" … in the Heroes IV stories, each was its own 'slice of life' and I thought they were all really good.

Not so with Heroes V. Personally, I can't stand the game and haven't played it since I finished the HoF Campaigns (also kinda lame).

[Ethermancer]

"If i wasn't so lazy I'd have you pick a story you consider great and proceed to show you why you're wrong."



Come now, give it a rest. The guy wrote Goldheart, for Pete's sake.

[Saturas]

"but if you want to build a magic hero, how do you ensure that you will gain spell power and knowledge when you level up rather than attack and defense?"



You ensure that by picking the faction, not hero, because each faction has exact percentage for gaining atributes for its heroes.



"Heroes do seem to have a variety of individual specializations, such as archer commander. But none of this is explained very well in the game or in the manual, so it’s still a little confusing to me. "



Everything you need about details can be found in H5 official manual.

[Elvin]

I too will have to disagree with C's assessment on H4 campaigns. They were obviously of superior level even if they did not unlock something. I understand what you want and would rather play a continuous linked campaign myself but their quality cannot be overlooked. Only Lysander seemed dull. Of course I have finished both so I take other things into consideration.



Naturally I love the interlinked skills and abilities even if some have been intentionally blocked due to insane requirements or minimal chance to get in a lvl-up

As well the half-baked and badly implemented ultimate abilities. Many heroes cannot get them, some are plain bad and others require a bad lineup that butchers your skills and efficiency.



Also the fact that now a battle's outcome is not as easy to predict and there are so many different strategies, surprises and activated abilities. It doesn't only require planning but good timing to get everything done. Definitely not easy to see hero clones anymore.
Edited on Tue, May 29 2007, 17:08 by Elvin

[Bandobras Took]

>H4’s story was very weak, with no unified plot



Totaly disagree with first part. Yes campaings are not unified. So what ? You want another "saving the world" story that no one belives in ? - you got it back in H5.

And those 6 original campaigns of H4, with well written characters and their fates I find of much bigger interest. And even they are not unified, in the end, you got much more detailed picture of that world.
Edited on Tue, May 29 2007, 10:27 by MistWeaver

Well written characters? Please. Elwin and Shaera was far cornier and cliched than anything that ever came out of Isabel's mouth.

The only ones I found interesting story-wise were Gauldoth's and Tawni's.

If i wasn't so lazy I'd have you pick a story you consider great and proceed to show you why you're wrong.

How Ciceronian.

The skills are great, but I think it would be better to somehow combine H4 and H5 so that there's cool abilities with depth.

Errr . . . precisely what would the H4 system bring that isn't handled in the H5 system? And before you say "advanced classes," keep in mind that those only added a special bonus by combining multiple skill trees -- that aspect is alive and well in the H5 system.

You hit a nurve and quite a nurve it is , simply put you can't have a hero of might AND magic based on your choice ,

This no doubt explains the failure of Heroes I and II.

Seriously, only half of the previous Heroes Games had a might and a magic hero for each faction; it was an innovation introduced by 3, continued by 4, and dropped for 5 to return to a more classic style with greater faction identity.

As well the half-baked and badly implemented ultimate abilities. Many heroes cannot get them, some are plain bad and others require a bad lineup that butchers your skills and efficiency.

And that's all I have to say about that.


Overall, I'm liking these articles -- and will note that I've found the Home key to be a great way of returning to the default view, and barely find myself needing to rotate at all nowadays.

[Corribus]

I seem to have hit a nerve with my critique of the H4 story. Not too surprising given the H4-centricity of the RT. I can respect why people might like a story that is told in independent vignettes. But, they did very little for me to be honest. The H5 story is not going to win a pulitzer, but I do appreciate the fact that the campaigns are at least related to one another. Still, some day I'd like to see something a little more original, but I understand that there's only so much complexity you can fit into a story that is told in several 30 second cut-scenes, and corny ones at that.

btw thanks for the nod, Ethermancer, but don't sweat it. TT likes to try to stir up trouble, and then pretends he's too lazy to follow through. But we all know that, despite his devilish facade, he's actually a cuddly little teddy bear underneath all that vicious sarcasm.

[ThunderTitan]

Yeah, one of those "full of sharp needles" teddy bears.

And for all your "wit" i still don't see you offering up a sacrifice.

And how can you decry anything as standard fantasy fare but complain when they do something more original like not having the stories linked in a big one? Oh, right, humans.

"Elwin and Shaera was far cornier and cliched than anything that ever came out of Isabel's mouth."

That campaign was a bunch of fairy tales rolled into one. That's exactly what made playing it interesting. Plus, if you think something's original you're just ignorant of its inspiration.


But seriously, Isabel?! Corny?! Cliched?! Try retarded and uninspiring. It was like 12 year olds wrote her dialog. Retarded 12 year olds.

[Elvin]

Most of her actions and character don't make much sense. When her supposedly most loved person died she had problems that Godric didn't call her queen. Naturally a necromancer should give her orders because he seemed loyal...Godric was less trustworthy really. She should invade the silver league while her country was still recovering because Markal told her so and he COULDN't have bad intentions. After all he LOVED the king and wished to see him back.

[Bandobras Took]

"Elwin and Shaera was far cornier and cliched than anything that ever came out of Isabel's mouth."

That campaign was a bunch of fairy tales rolled into one. That's exactly what made playing it interesting. Plus, if you think something's original you're just ignorant of its inspiration.

I don't recall claiming that things had to be original. But if they're going to be pedantically unoriginal, they should at least have characters that inspire empathy or interest.

But seriously, Isabel?! Corny?! Cliched?! Try retarded and uninspiring. It was like 12 year olds wrote her dialog. Retarded 12 year olds.

That was kind of my point -- the writing in H4 wasn't any more defective than H5, it just went in a different direction with its dullness. And at least H5 had the parched excuse of not working in a native language.

Most of her actions and character don't make much sense.

All of her actions make perfect sense when you consider that the Demon Sovereign had tainted her at birth. Deep-seated needs for authority and destruction seem perfectly in line with somebody who was to be a fit mother for the Sovereign's child.

[Caradoc]

Maybe the stories have to be simplistic. All the characters can do is kill and plunder (and occasionally run away).

[PhoenixReborn]

You hit a nurve and quite a nurve it is , simply put you can't have a hero of might AND magic based on your choice , Every faction has its charctaristic and well your stuck with it , For example you can't use destructive magic with haven properly , Can't use war machines with sylvan and ect ect , Simply sux.

I disagree here. For example, Sylvan can be excellent with war machines, I've gotten it and used it to good effect.

I'm able to plan a hero before the game starts and can usually accomplish most of my objectives. The might vs. magic now comes from picking those kinds of skills, and the artifacts to supplement those skills.

The Runemages for example can really go either way, same for warlocks. Sure, you'll have destructive...but the other four skills could be might oriented.

[Corribus]

Re: stories. Has the writing/story in any Might and Magic or HoMM game ever really been that great? Ignoring the somewhat unique overarching story line of the Ancients, only Xeen had a story that was in any way compelling, and it took so long to get to a point where it was obvious there was a story at all that it can mostly be discounted. The stories of the HoMM campaigns - all of them - have been passable at best. They've been surface jobs, mostly; just barely enough detail and character development to shuttle you through the gameplay. Which is fine, because the gameplay is the main attraction anyway. If I want to experience a good story, there are plenty of user-made creations that are far superior. So I find it hard to believe anyone who can seriously tell me they think the H4 story was great - and I don't mean in comparison to H5's. More likely these people just like H4 as a game and so give the story an honorary grade of excellent that it doesn't really deserve. I often do the same thing for H2's story. I adored the game, so naturally I remember the story with some fondness, but was it really that great or original? No. Obviously, our perception of the other facets of the game will color our perception of the game's story.

@PhoenixReborn

What I'm mostly referring to is the fact that you have no control over what statistics your hero will get. For example, I can try to make a necromancer a might-oriented hero all I want, but if he gets spell power and knowledge boosts on every level-up, how effective a might hero is he really going to be? I don't think the faction I choose should dictate what style of play I pursue. That's very limiting, IMO.