Looking backward: First impressions on HoMM4

[Paladin]

What got me addicted to HoMM4 was the skill system. Ah, the thrill of building a super hero killing machine! I've played it since the day I got it. In the beginning I thought it was totally inferior to HoMM3, but I got the hang of it. The original campaigns are one of the game's best features, even if they are focusing too much on the campaign heroes, imo. The expansion campaigns were quite boring and not very well made, especially the WoW ones.

Anyway, I'd say that both III and IV are equally good - just very different.

[Elvin]

@Phoenix reborn
Unfortunately I had no internet connection at the time so I didn't get to try it. Right now I am not sure I would like to test it either as I am still addicted with H5 and apart from some rl issues that need effort on my part there are some games that I am waiting for in the near future TotE is one of them. Maybe sometime...

[Metathron]

I can still rememeber in full detail the day HoMM IV was released. The night before I couldn't quite go to sleep due to all the excitement. I was some $4 short, so I had to borrow it. I literally ran to the bus station, and from there to the store, got the game, got home, didn't even take off my shoes, installed the game and played it for a half hour.

I was majorly disappointed, what the heck is this? It all seemed so awkward and just plain wrong. I gave the game a chance later on, but I don't quite remember the exact point when I started to like, and eventually love it, but both occured before I even heard of the Equilibris mod, though the game is much the better for it.

So, for me, the game definitely has that special touch/feel/something. So much so, that it even rivals that of HoMM II, and perhaps surpasses it.

I guess it's just hate it or love it, but the important thing is to give the game a chance.

[Da' vane]

HoMM IV is my favourite game simply because there was more customization and focus on heroes - especially in combat, allowing for more roleplaying-like games. I would have liked more variety in the skills system, but was very solid in principle.

I am put off HoMM V by the limitations on hero development, and the removal of heroes from combat, since these were key improvements in HoMM IV that should have been developed further.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I completed the second map of the Lysander campaign, and am probably more than half-way through map three.

Comments on Map 2:
This is a definite RPG map. Starting with only the four carry-over heroes took me by surprise at first, and I quickly found that I had to join them all into a single party if I was going to survive. On my first try, I paired them up, with one hero in each pair being the one with GM ressurrection. Unfortunately, since fractions are rounded down with that skill, I found heroes couldn't be raised with that skill! Since only one hero had divine intervention, I was very limited in how to handle a loss (although I could have used guardian angels, I found a more useful and cost-effective path than that).

The hardest battles were those against other Life forces, as in the first round of combat, one of my actions was normally to cast a mass ward against whatever type of creature I was fighting (but there is no life ward!)
Next, I had two heroes casting regeneration on everyone. This left my only vulnerability being evil eyes (since they could remove enchantments!)

I got archery for two heroes (never offered for the other two) during the map, but only found one ranged weapon, so one hero couldn't do ranged attacks. I am still working on recitfying that in the mext map.

This brings me to the next major thing in H4: when levelling up, they returned to the H2 method of not requiring at least one new skill and one upgrade to be selectable (when possible). I have, so far never had more than one new skill (except when I only had one old skill remaining) to choose from, and I have often had no new skills to choose from (all my heroes wtill have at least one primary skill category available.) I do like the fact that three choices are given, but I think an implementation similar to H5 would have been better: offter two primary skills and two subskills per level, one of each being a new one (if possible) and one of each being an upgrade (if possible). I found that I was often taking a skill I really didn't want because no upgrades for one my desired skills were offered.

I am finding that my heroes are getting quite powerful - by the end of the map, they were taking out hundreds of level 2 creatures with little difficulty. Only medusae were causing problems, as a large stack could kill a hero outright- but that is why I kept my divine intervention caster protected. At the current point in map 3, I got guilds to teach most of the spells, so I have to GM life casters.

I have found that low level troops (particularly given my hero situation) are now pretty much a waste of cash. The sheer quantities of archers at level 1 still make them useful, but my main forces in map 3 consist of 2 heroes and all the level 3 and 4 troops.

I have also found the appearance of the "timid AI" problems I had heard about. If I leave a town very poorly defended, the AI will take it, but otherwise it seems to try and avoid conflict whenever possible. One of my two main forces is very underpowered (other than the two 20+ level heroes in it), and yet that force can still pick and choose battles.

In reference to queries above about the addictiveness factor, I am still in the "new toy" phase, so it is hard to say, but I am finding myself more into H4 now than I was at a similar point in H5 (halfway through the first campaign). I didn't have "one more turn" syndrome in H5 until sometime during the HoF campaigns, and I haven't gotten that yet here, but of course H5 was and still is evolving in the official way, while for H4 I have the finished product. H2 and H3, on the other hand, grabbed me very quickly, and H2 only let go (grudgingly) when H3 came. H3 only let go (also reluctantly) after a very long time. H5 is struggling to get there with me, and H4 has a decent chance, but neither seems to be of the caliber that their older siblings are.

Anyway, I think that I won't have much more to say until I start the next campaign, and so I can start comparing factions. But who knows? maybe something will surprise me. The storyline is very nice, and so plot-related events may demand attention before I get there.

[Pol]

I started several campaigns but never get interested enough to continue. On the other hand custom maps are ideal choice. These got me

From the bundled maps I most liked The Valley of Damned and Demoniary of Doom. Especially getting out Evil Sorceress, of course not just by vanishing them by Black Dragons, is something satisfying.

[pepak]

I started several campaigns but never get interested enough to continue. On the other hand custom maps are ideal choice. These got me :D

The campaigns (all supplied maps, in fact) are pretty poor from gameplay point of view, but the campaigns in the basic game have excellent storylines. I just love Gauldoth's story, for example.

[Jolly Joker]

The campaigns (all supplied maps, in fact) are pretty poor from gameplay point of view, but the campaigns in the basic game have excellent storylines. I just love Gauldoth's story, for example.

Sure, but if you wanted a good story you could buy and read a book. If the gameplay is just a boring thing to be endured in order to read how the story goes, there's obviously something wrong with the game. The story writer(s) deserve compliments, though.

[ThunderTitan]

I got archery for two heroes (never offered for the other two) during the map, but only found one ranged weapon, so one hero couldn't do ranged attacks. I am still working on rectifying that in the next map.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure you don't need any ranged weapons to use archery.

Actually i just tested it and you don't!

Do remember that units block LoS for ranged attack and magic behind them, and look for the attack type button, it's the last one in the first set.

[Metathron]

To have a ranged attack, I believe your hero either has to have the archery skill or a ranged weapon equipped, though without the skill the impact of the attack will be rather meagre.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I got archery for two heroes (never offered for the other two) during the map, but only found one ranged weapon, so one hero couldn't do ranged attacks. I am still working on rectifying that in the next map.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure you don't need any ranged weapons to use archery.

Actually i just tested it and you don't!

Do remember that units block LoS for ranged attack and magic behind them, and look for the attack type button, it's the last one in the first set.

You misread my comment:
I had 2 heroes with archery
I had one ranged weapon
Thus, 3 heroes had ranged attacks.

I have 4 heroes.
4-3=1, last time I checked

Actually, now I have 5 heroes, since I released one from a jail during map 3 (which I haven't finished yet). This hero came with a ranged weapon. Unfortunately, the bow from map 2 didn't transfer, so I am still short one ranged hero.

[ThunderTitan]

Well that sentence makes it seem like one of the 2 heroes didn't have a ranged attack.

[Bandobras Took]

I guess it's just hate it or love it, but the important thing is to give the game a chance.

Drat; where does respect for a valiant effort and the quality of the fundamental ideas while maintaining a healthy disrespect for most of the implementation lie?

I'm still reserving comments until the appropriate points are reached.

To QD:

Out of curiosity, what difficulty level are you playing on?

Have you developed any preferences as far as the alternate troop choices for the Haven?

[Akul]

Sure, but if you wanted a good story you could buy and read a book. If the gameplay is just a boring thing to be endured in order to read how the story goes, there's obviously something wrong with the game. The story writer(s) deserve compliments, though.

Fun depends on what person you are.
Some people like standard RPG's and some like Action RPG's.
Some people like just riding cars in GTA:VC, and some like other features in it.
Some people like H4 gameplay and some people don't.
Some people like H5 gameplay, and some don't.

[Jolly Joker]

Certainly Sauron.
However, you forget that I wrote this in answer to pepak who HIMSELF wrote:
"The campaigns (all supplied maps, in fact) are pretty poor from gameplay point of view, but the campaigns in the basic game have excellent storylines. I just love Gauldoth's story, for example."
So HE finds the gameplay poor, but the story great.
My comment was, if you like the story, but not the gameplay you are better off reading a book, because I myself found the stories interesting and the gameplay poor.

[Metathron]

I would not call the gameplay of the campaigns poor. The AI is what is poor, and while the AI makes up a considerable amount of gameplay, it is far from being the only component.

[difool]

Hello QQD! I fondly remember your map reviews on the .strategic newsgroup a decade ago (whatever happened to your colleague Sebastian anyway?).

I know you didn't want hints or anything but have you tried to train up a thief character yet? And what are your thoughts on the advanced classes?

[Angelspit]

However, you forget that I wrote this in answer to pepak who HIMSELF wrote:
"The campaigns (all supplied maps, in fact) are pretty poor from gameplay point of view, but the campaigns in the basic game have excellent storylines. I just love Gauldoth's story, for example."
So HE finds the gameplay poor, but the story great.

I think pepak meant that the Heroes IV campaigns made poor use of the Heroes IV gameplay (so the story is the main incentive to finish the campaigns), not that the gameplay itself is poor.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

Map 3 down, and there is not much to say. With the large number of towns, it is easy to have both level 4 troops available for both my main parties. A stack of each, with lots of supporting ranged troops seemed the way to go in this map. One of my heroes learned summoning, so I had a stack of pixies growing as well. Most of my previous impressions still hold, so I thought I would comment on a few specific things this time.

First, the caravans. They have both good and bad aspects, in comparison to the H5 caravans.
The good: you can transport troops that you have purchaced already. This helps when you find that suddenly you won't be able to return for the troops that you no longer need to use as a garrison. It would be nice for H5 to have that aspect. Also, the caravans are not on the map itself, so you can send weak forces from multiple towns without risk. But this also has a drawback, which I will get to in the "bad" section. Speaking of which....

The bad: You cannot hire creatures in a town from the caravan screen. You can hire them from dwellings on the adventure map you captured, but not the towns. This makes it very inconvenient when you are trying to gather the production of several towns together. This is something H5 had right. Also, since caravans cannot be seen on the main map, you cannot send one between towns and have another force meet it part way to pull the troops out. On maps with few towns that are far apart, this is very useful.

Overall, I can definitely see why people were annoyed that the base H5 game didn't have them, but neither 4 nor 5 got it just right. I think I prefer the H5 form currently, but it really does depend on the map.

Te second point I want to note is the operatic soundtrack. I really liked this in H2, and missed it in 3. It definitely compensates for some of what the town screen is lacking. Hopefully the other towns will be as nice, when I eventually get to exploring them.

Map 4 for Lysander seems to be another RPG map (I have no troops to start with, just the five heroes), but I have only seen the starting position. There may be a town nearby to capture.

And finally, to a few comments directed at me:

@ BT: I am playing the campaigns, which don't have selectable difficulty, so I am playing on whatever the default is
As for troops, level 2 is a toss up, level 3 I prefer the monks. So far, whenever I have had towns at all in the campaigns I have had multiple towns, and so I have been able to get both level 4s. It will really depend on the availability of resources, I think, if I can get either.

@difool: I still post reviews on the strategic group - I just haven't done a review in a little while. Sebastian is also still out there, posting H5 strategies most recently. (I alluded to him in the first post of this topic)

[ThunderTitan]

@ BT: I am playing the campaigns, which don't have selectable difficulty, so I am playing on whatever the default is

They do have selectable dif, it's just that only at the campaigns start (which annoyed the heck out of me in the Chaos campaign, as i couldn't finish the first map on anything else but Easy, and then the rest where too easy).