Is this cheating? H2

[grobblewobble]

In a recent game of H2 I played, something strange happened. I was playing as knight and not doing so well. But I did find the ultimate wand of magic, as well as the lightning rod. My mage guild had lightning, so I hired a warlock and gave him an army of 1 champion. A big necro army arrived, full of bone dragons and what more. So I engage with the warlock, cast lightning and surrender. Hired warlock again, walked up to the army, repeat. This way I bolted the army again and again, until it was completely obliterated that same turn.

So do you consider this cheating? And if you do, where do you draw the line? Is it cheating to surrender after you cast an offense spell? Is rehiring a hero after you surrendered cheating? Or walking with a hero you just rehired? Your thoughts please?

[Kristo]

If you feel guilty, after you surrender rehire that hero and another one. Give away the Ultimate Wand, lather, rinse, repeat. If you've got the money, I say go for it.

[ThunderTitan]

So H4 wasn't the first "nuke'm & retreat" game in the series.

[grobblewobble]

In this specific case, I was doing it to the AI, so I didn't feel guilty at all. But in multiplayer I would hesitate to do such a thing.. are there some kind of common agreements for online multiplayer? (never played online so far)

[ThunderTitan]

Alls fair in love and war, multiplayer or not.

[Lord Belphegor]

It's not cheating, i've done this many times against the computer as a last chance to hold on to a particular castle.

And the computer is not shy of casting a damage spell and fleeing! He is doing it all the time!

Also i wouldn't consider it cheating in multiplayer either, if we played a game and you would do this i wouldn't take it as bad attitude or something.

The real in game problem is dimension door. Other than that, all that can be done, should be done!

[dallasmavs41]

I wouldn't see it as cheating. If you have the money, and are willing to use it, then why not?

[ThunderTitan]

Cause it's cheap.

[PhoenixReborn]

When I play with my friends, we agree no hit and run. It's one thing to commit a force and use an armageddon tactic. It's another thing to use one hero with a fast creature...against the a.i. who cares?

[Corribus]

I'd say it's an exploit, not a cheat. It's not a cheat because you are playing within the rules of the game. But you are exploiting a loophole. It's up to your conscience, I guess. Most PvP tournament games probably outlaw things like that, but I could be wrong.

[Angelspit]

Even though the Tournament of Honor supports no rule, many players will agree to a set of rules before they start a game, and no hit-and-run was one of them (for Heroes III at least). But against the computer, such exploits are fun.

[Caradoc]

And don't forget that in Heroes IV, the AI will do this to you.

[danijel1990]

So do you consider this cheating?

Well, of corse not

[Banedon]

If you do this to a real, human opponent, you can expect him to get really angry at you. It's not cheating but it's impossible to guard against and highly damaging. I would certainly ban it in any game.

Where do I draw the line? Rehiring a hero that you surrendered with is not cheating; if it were you might as well retreat. If you just rehired a hero, yes, you can move him. You can cast a spell and surrender immediately afterwards - but only if you are the defender, not the attacker (wherupon you can force your opponent to decide if he wants to take the casualties).

And you know, the worst kinds of hit-and-run involve things like 20 Archangels (Heroes III) where you split 19-1 of them and use the 19 stack to obliterate your opponent's stacks while surrendering with the other.

[grobblewobble]

And the computer is not shy of casting a damage spell and fleeing! He is doing it all the time!

True, but the AI doesn't do that 10 times in the same turn with the same hero.

Opinions vary, it seems. Best to discuss it before playing. I wouldn't mind if someone used this exploit, as long as we both agreed on allowing it.

[gravyluvr]

I think in MP you would find yourself a very lonely player if you engaged in that exploit.

[Metathron]

Utilizing this tactic against the computer is not cheating, plain and simple.

Using this tactic against a human player is a non sequitur, for if I memory serves me right, surrendering (as opposed to fleeing the battlefield) requires the other party to accept or decline, and no sane player will allow an experienced enemy hero to surrender for a measly 375 (the cost of a champion) only to return and cause more grief.

[grobblewobble]

Ok, metathron, I tested this to make it sure. No, your opponent doesn't need to agree about surrendering. Instead, the computer names the price and YOU have to agree to it (or not). Unrealistic, but true.

Banedon, thanks for your suggestion about allowing hit-and-run only for a defending hero, that's a nice compromise.

edit: spellcheck

[Campaigner]

It's part of the rules of the game so it can be considered an exploit but never a cheat, since cheating is breaking the rules.

And all those strange rules they got at ToH just prove that this game franschise was never designed for multiplayer.
I remember that there was a huge discussion on some forum (maybe the official one back in the day) that 3DO or the developers had to step in and talk since half the forum said it was a legitimate tactic and the other half was ready to burn you at the stake for using it.

I was standing on the side, shaking my head and wondering why they played a game in MP that was never designed for it....

Metaton: What makes you think that it's any different if it's used against the A.I or a human? One of'em complain and the other don't. That's it.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

For a game that was never designed to be multiplayer, I sure wish they'd have made a competent AI for single player then.