Heroes of Might and Magic II Mod

[Campaigner]

The changes I want to start playing again is the following:

All units move as far as their movement say (no more flying across the field in one turn!)

Half ranged damage if targets are more far away then the middle.

That's the most important ones. But I wonder now that I've tried Heroes V if I can be without the abilities and especially initiative

[UndeadHalfOrc]

>>>>> All units move as far as their movement say (nore more flying across the field in one turn!)

>>>>> Half ranged damage if targets are more far away then the middle.

eh,... shouldn't you just play Heroes 3 ?

[danijel1990]

So, how can I get hex editor?

[Kristo]

I took a look at heroes2w.exe in a hex editor yesterday. I don't have the exact addresses with me right now, but about 3/4 of the way through the file there's something that looks like a creature data table. Look for "psnt", "arch", "pike", etc. in the code each separated by 26 bytes. I saw some hex values that correspond to attack and defense in there. I saw 0101 a few bytes before "psnt" and 0503 a few bytes before "arch". I really think that's what we're looking for. It'll take a bunch of analysis to figure out exactly how that structure is laid out. Hopefully that'll get someone (or me if no one jumps on it) started.

So, how can I get hex editor?

Google for "Hex Workshop." If you don't like that one, googling for "hex editor" will net you a bunch of choices.

[danijel1990]

Well, I'll look for it, but I'm busy right now.
You surely know the project: Broken Alliance Heroes of the Lost Lands.

[Kristo]

Ok here's what I have so far. I have version 2.1 of the Price of Loyalty expansion. The creature data table starts at address 0xF03F8. Each creature contains 26 bytes, laid out as follows:

Code: Select all

bytes    description
-----    -----------
0-1      cost in gold
2-6      ???
7        base growth per week
8-9      hit points
10       alignment[1]
11       speed
12       attack
13       defense
14       min damage
15       max damage
16       shots
17-21    4-character ID string, plus null char
22       attack-type flags[2]
23       other flags[3]
24-25    padding (all bits zero)

1. Alignment is a value between 0 and 6. 0 = Knight, 1 = Barbarian, 2 = Sorceress, 3 = Warlock, 4 = Wizard, 5 = Necromancer, 6 = Neutral.

2. The attack-type flags are ORed together. The default is 0, meaning a single hex melee creature, 1 = the creature takes up two hexes, 2 = flying, 4 = ranged, 8 = two-hex attack (e.g., Dragons). I expected to see more detail here but there isn't. Liches have a 4 and Hydras have a 1.

3. The only nonzero value I've seen here is 4, and that corresponds to undead.

I haven't yet been able to find any pattern to bytes 2-6 of the structure. There may be a pointer in there to unique functionality for each creature, in which case modding that will probably be impossible. The other thing missing here is the extra resource cost for certain creatures. That might be hardcoded into the game logic somewhere, and thus would likely be unmoddable.

Anyway, that should be more than enough to get some aspiring modders started. I'll post again if I find anything else useful.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Thanks Kristo, you rock!

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Kristo , judging on the way Heroes 3 creature date file is arranged, 'm 80% certain that bytes 2-6 are used for what is referred in Heroes 3 as
"FIGHT VALUE"
and
"AI VALUE".

These values are used for two things:
1) Resolution of battles between CPU opponents. In case you didn't know, battles between CPU opponents are a simplified version of the real thing (CPU vs human or human vs human).
2) Relative value of each creature for AI purpose (A CPU hero has 3 peasants, should he attack your highly defended castle? If you jack peasant's fight/ai value, he WILL! Again, I tested this out with Heroes 3)

I still don't know exactly they are used in the formula though.

[danijel1990]

Thanx guys, but I am busy now working on HoMM clone Broken Alliance
Here's a web site that I just started it: http://www.brokenalliance.ucoz.com/
PS. Feel free to register and post comments

[grobblewobble]

The question of the knight's (and barbarian's, to an extent) alleged inferiority has always boggled my mind.

This may be a bit off-topic, but barbarian castles also have another advantage. Many maps have one or more hill forts, where some barbarian troops can be upgraded for free. (A similar building does the same for knights.) This can save a lot of resources. On small maps, buying a pack of ogres and turning them into ogre lords for free (saving 200 gold/ogre, not even counting dwelling costs) can make all the difference.

To succeed as a knight, it really helps to have access to sea. With all the free wood floating around it gets a lot easier to build their dwellings quickly.

I never got to seriously get around to it, but the very first things I remember balancing was:
Lower Titan gold cost by 500, and growth by 1 per week (max 2)
Lower Dragon growth by 1 per week (max 2)
Raise Paladin/Crusader HP by 10
Increase peasant growth by 8 and lower their cost by 5 gold.

It's not perfect or complete by any means, but it helps balance it out a lot.

That's the most sensible proposal I ever heard. No unnecessary changes, just slightly polishing things here and there.. sounds very good! One question, though: if dragon growth is 2/week, what is their growth without a well? Zero?

[Kristo]

One question, though: if dragon growth is 2/week, what is their growth without a well? Zero?

Based on the data layout, I think you're right. I fear setting the base growth to zero would break Dragon Cities. An alternative would be to nerf them a bit by lowering their hit points. Just keep in mind that if you nerf Dragons, you also have to nerf Titans.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

>>> One question, though: if dragon growth is 2/week, what is their growth without a well? Zero?

Correct, although you guys are the first one to remind me that indeed, dragon cities will become useless then.

Mmmm..... useless dragon cities, or VASTLY changed dragon/titan stat? We could just remove the dragon cities from maps.

[grobblewobble]

Perhaps the best would be to remove the well structure, as Kristo suggested somewhere. That would both help the balance between factions and the balance between tiers. But such a drastic change would have to be playtested a lot to see how it works out. And we'd have to find out how to do it.

Setting a base growth to zero just feels wrong imo, even without considering dragon cities.

So perhaps lowering HP of dragons / titans is the answer? They shouldn't be nerfed too badly I'd say, just enough to be more or less comparable to the stats of phoenix & bone dragon.. how about:

green dragon: HP 200 -> 150, gold 3000 -> 2000
red dragon: HP 250 -> 175, gold 3500 -> 2500
black dragon: HP 300 -> 200, gold 4000 -> 3000

giant: no change
titan: HP 300 -> 200, gold 5000 -> 4000

Now some maths on gold costs. The total "power" of a creature is proportional to SQRT(HP*damage), so if a creature has 2/3 of its original HP, its power is SQRT(2/3) of what it was. This means that if you want to keep the original theoretical cost/effectiveness equal, the HP above would correspond to the following gold costs:

green dragon: 2598 gold
red dragon: 2928 gold
black dragon: 3266 gold
titan: 4082 gold

Green dragons aren't a very good deal in H2 (compared to bone dragons, for example), so I'd say making them a bit cheaper than 2500 wouldn't hurt. Titans may be expensive, but after all they're ranged. They have about the same cost-effectiveness as most ranged units.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

Disallowing the well could be VERY HARD to implement.
Knight castle needs a well to build Pikeman dwelling.

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I like your proposed changes, grobble wobble.

In addition, I would make the "Dungeon" money structure of the warlocks, more expensive. Currently it's too cheap, warlocks shouldn't be allowed to get one too early, it gives them %40 income bonus over other towns for crying out loud. So we need to find structure dwelling costs in the hex file.

Additionnally:
Change boar damage from 2-3 to 2-4.
Lower gold cost of Lich and Power Lich by 100
Raise bone dragon cost by 100 gold

[grobblewobble]

Thank you.

I wonder if the dungeon really needs to be more expensive? There is already a trade-off here: do I need the money, or the ore for the green tower? As it is, building the dungeon is a bit more efficient than upgrading a town, but not much.

The change to boars sounds good, maybe zombies and dwarves could be improved somehow as well? Cheaper, perhaps? Liches are expensive because of their area effect attack, but unfortunately that's often a drawback. So yes, why not make them a little cheaper. But I don't think bone dragons need to be more expensive? Their great cost-effectiveness makes up for the fact they're not as tough as real dragons, not upgradable. And slow. It fits the undead "quantity above quality" theme very well.

[Lord Belphegor]

Hello, everyone! I just like to start by saying that this thread is what brought me to this forum, while googling for anything Heroes 2 - related. H2 is the best game in the series IMO and i'm really excited that there are some other people (besides me) that still appreciate it.

I've always wondered on the dilemma about town inequity and the sollution i came up with was similar to the one posted above (only 2 titans, dragons / week). Maybe make the paladins and crusaders a bit tougher, and those fantastic phoenix to maybe 120 HP.

On the issue about the well: maybe it is possible to make the well rise base creature +2 for every creature besides dragon & titan for which it would give only +1 per week.

Anyway, i'm really glad to hear your ideas and i'll be sure to check your hex codes to alter the game a bit. I've discovered some hex codes myself some years ago but they were related to heroes stats, troops he had, resources. Hoping to hear more from you soon and maybe play a game online! (I tried playing with a friend over a very good connection once (not LAN but excellent ping) and it crashed quite often, maybe there's a better way to play Heroes 2 online now, and more reliable is there?)

[Campaigner]

UndeadHalfOrc: Too many changes I don't like in Heroes III. Magictypes making mightheroes just as good spellcasters as magicheroes, every creaturedwelling got an upgrade. In Heroes II you had to get the mass spells which costed double mana.

I don't think it's possible to add in initiative or abilities like in Heroes V, but the ranged half damage and flyers operating as in Heroes III is I hope.

[grobblewobble]

Hello, everyone! I just like to start by saying that this thread is what brought me to this forum, while googling for anything Heroes 2 - related. H2 is the best game in the series IMO and i'm really excited that there are some other people (besides me) that still appreciate it.

Now that you mention it, I'm new here as well, and also happy to find other H2 fans!

Hoping to hear more from you soon and maybe play a game online!

That 'd be cool, I never played H2 online before (hardly played multiplayer at all), so yeah, let's play!

Back to topic: I agree a little HP boost for cyclops/crusaders would be nice. With phoenix, I don't know. Their great speed makes them quite good already? Sorceress armies are fast and deadly, so IMO it's only fair the phoenix is a bit frail..

[Kristo]

Everyone needs to remember that Nerfing Is Good (tm). Before you go randomly boosting supposed "weak" creatures, I highly suggest you try nerfing the strongest ones. Why? The whole reason everyone wants to boost Crusaders, Cyclopes, etc. is their weakness against Dragons. But everybody's weak against Dragons! Rather than try to buff the entire bestiary to match the Dragons' power, it'd be far easier to try to bring Dragons and Titans back in line. If you over-nerf them, you can always buff them back up a bit.

Ok, ok, I'll allow the boosting of Peasants. No one uses them right now anyway.