Another Stage of the Demarked Map of Axeloth

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

I've just finished another stage of the map of Axeloth. I have now plotted the exact location (as far as I can tell) of the various scenario's of the Might Campaign of Wearjak.

By careful analysis of the terrain of the various maps, of in-game descriptions I have firmly plotted down the location of the various scenarios in the Might Campaign and Life Campaign.

Key to plotting, is the analysis of what part of the world it is said to occur in and the analysis of in particular rivers and coastlines.

For instance, the first Might Campaign must have occured in the North-East, beacause it has a mission in which Wearjak fights the pirates of Screaming Tom, that are located on an island in the north east corner of the map, sorrounded by ocean.

I have also drawn political boundries and have plotted mass-migrations of barbarians out of Wearjak's kingdom, looking for new wars to fight.

These barbarians are crucial to the plots of other campaigns.

[Lunar]

So all barbarians who appeared in other campaigns in Homm4 original campaign - came from tribal lands and before, before from Chedian?

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

So all barbarians who appeared in other campaigns in Homm4 original campaign - came from tribal lands and before, before from Chedian?

No the Barbarians originated in the Tribal lands and then migrated to Chedian. I will add arrow markers in order to clearly mark out which way the migration happened.

Chedian didn't have any inhabitants, before the barbarians migrated there.

That migration was driven by Wearjaks unification of the Tribal Lands and the creation of the kingdom of peace and harmony under his benevolant rule. .

Of course not everyone was happy with this. Many warrior bands were out of work. Some tribes were not too happy to leave the old ways behind.

The losing side of the Might Campaign migrates into other lands, creating a large amount of chaos and disruption, and creating New Barbarian Colonies.

The WoW barbarians, are the barbarians fleeing from Wearjak in the north.

The barbarians in Emilia Nighthaven's campaign, are the southern migration, they were defeated by Emilia nighthaven. Having bieng defeated, they continued to migrate in a south-west, direction, eventually reaching the Isle of Pyre. Eventually these became the barbarians of Gathering Storm.

The Barbarians of the Death Campaign are the south-east migration.

Another barbarian migration was attempted south, but it was utterly smashed on the borders of the Tribal Lands, by Gavin Magnus's New Bracadan armies and most of the survivors joined the eastward migration.

With the wars between Emilia and Gavin Magnus, the barbarians were able to establish themselves in the North-East.

Once Great Arcan was stabalised, their position was under serious threat, which links in to the beginning of the Death campaign.

[Akul]

Of course not everyone was happy with this. Many warrior bands were out of work. Some tribes were not too happy to leave the old ways behind.

You mean, the NEW ways

However, you have done a great work!

[Marzhin]

So all barbarians who appeared in other campaigns in Homm4 original campaign - came from tribal lands and before, before from Chedian?

No the Barbarians originated in the Tribal lands and then migrated to Chedian. I will add arrow markers in order to clearly mark out which way the migration happened.

Chedian didn't have any inhabitants, before the barbarians migrated there.

That migration was driven by Wearjaks unification of the Tribal Lands and the creation of the kingdom of peace and harmony under his benevolant rule. .

Mmm sorry but no. The old Ursanian Empire, just like our Roman Empire, was surrounded by barbarians before its downfall five centuries ago. The homelands of the Empire were located where the Sea of Verhoffin currently is. So there were barbarians in Chedian (and dwarves, half-orcs, elves...) five centuries before Waerjak and the other refugees from Krewlod ever set foot on Axeoth (see Might and Magic IX). Beldonia is a barbarian country too.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Mmm sorry but no. The old Ursanian Empire, just like our Roman Empire, was surrounded by barbarians before its downfall five centuries ago. The homelands of the Empire were located where the Sea of Verhoffin currently is. So there were barbarians in Chedian (and dwarves, half-orcs, elves...) five centuries before Waerjak and the other refugees from Krewlod ever set foot on Axeoth (see Might and Magic IX). Beldonia is a barbarian country too.

There actually is native inhabitants of Axeloth. I thought the whole world was inhabited by refugees, or at least that is the impression I get from the game.

[theLuckyDragon]

Psst... It's Axeoth.

[Marzhin]

There actually is native inhabitants of Axeloth. I thought the whole world was inhabited by refugees, or at least that is the impression I get from the game.

Quoting myself from my previous map topic... :

Five centuries ago, there was a huge empire, the Ursanian Empire, which included the countries now known as Chedian, Framon, Beldonia and Mendossus (and probably Qassar, Korresan and a part of Channon too). But then a powerful sorcerer called Verhoffin declared his estate to be independant. War ensued, but the ursanian armies could never defeat Verhoffin. Then the last emperor (Trandis, IIRC) hired an assassin to eliminate the wizard. The thug failed, and Verhoffin was quite pissed. He climbed to the top of his tower and casted the most powerful spell ever, the Eye of the Storm. The lands around the tower were sunken, creating the Sea of Verhoffin. In a few minutes, one third of the Empire was destroyed, a blow the empire would never recover from : it was later called the Cataclysm, year 0 of the Axeoth calendar. The Empire lasted thirteen more years before barbarians invasions destroyed it once and for all.

With the end of Axeoth greatest nation, the whole world was plunged into barbarism for centuries (the state in which the refugees from Enroth found it : roamed by barbarians, bandits and warlords)

Chedian was an orc country (the Dia clan, thus the name "Cheh'Dian" in orcish) before being incorporated to the Empire, and is now a united country after all its clans joined forces to defeat the beldonian invasion (events of MM9). The actual location of Mendossus is where the capital city of the Empire, Ursania, used to be. Much of Mendossus' wealth comes from digs in the area. I assumed Channon become a powerful country after the end of the Empire. The "native" elven clans of Axeoth were scattered and their legendary city, At'rann, disappeared. Scholars think it may lie somewhere deep inside the Sea of Verhoffin...

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Okay, thanks Marzhin. So basically what happened was that the world was inhabited by small bands of various kinds of creatures in effect, but without a great deal of orginisation.

The Heroes IV campaign, does not seem to suggest that there are any native intelligent inhabitants of the world at all that are still living and that's what I was going on.

Countless fortunate refugees flee through portals into another world, that is what is says. Never anywhere does it seem to mention native intelligent inhabitants of any kind.

There seems to be a divergance between the storyline's of Heroes of Might and Magic IV and Might and Magic IX to be honest. Although similar, their storyline's diverge on crucial details.

The Heroes IV campaign, does not mention anywhere native inhabitants of the world in which the refugees are thrust. The whole world revolves around the Heroes III continuity, the conflicts of the last game, are continued in another world, settled by refugees from the world of Heroes III. No mention is ever made of native inhabitants, the evidence seems to suggest that they died out completely in the Heroes IV world, leaving mummies and pyrimids and artifacts behind as the only evidence of their existance.

The Cataclysm, is not where things are dated from, no things are dated from the Reckoning, the destruction of the old world.

If there had been native inhabitants, one would assume that their own concerns would mean something, that people who background is not defined by the reckoning would exist. But no, everything is defined entirely by the reckoning and the past world. One would assume that the refugees would either assimilate, or would come into conflict with them, nowhere is this mentioned.

I am not concerning myself with Might and Magic IX, firstly beacause I do not have this game, a secondly beacause the storyline's of Might and Magic IX and Heroes of Might and Magic IV, are so different. Thus I am working entirely on the information I can obtain from Heroes IV campaigns.

[Marzhin]

The bandits lords Emilia is fighting against at the beginning of the Order campaign are most certainly natives. So are the Red Dwarves. In the beginning of Gauldoth's story he fights against a "nature" community led by a druid, they are not from the old world (refugees from AvLee arrived in Axeoth far in the south) so they are probably natives. The Merfolk from Tawni Balfour's campaign are natives too.

But it's true the "civilized" lands of Axeoth are on the "western" side of the world (Channon and Chedian to the north, Uludin, Merlion and Lodwar to the south)

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

The bandits lords Emilia is fighting against at the beginning of the Order campaign are most certainly natives. So are the Red Dwarves. In the beginning of Gauldoth's story he fights against a "nature" community led by a druid, they are not from the old world (refugees from AvLee arrived in Axeoth far in the south) so they are probably natives. The Merfolk from Tawni Balfour's campaign are natives too.

But it's true the "civilized" lands of Axeoth are on the "western" side of the world (Channon and Chedian to the north, Uludin, Merlion and Lodwar to the south)

You are wrong Marzhin, beacause the barbarian leader Gurg, apparantly when he gets drunk, he boasts of bieng Kilgor's successor. The barbarians are certainly not 'natives', beacause a native would not declare himself Kilgor's successor. The barbarians in the Emilia Nighthaven campaign, are almost definately a spillover from the Might Campaign.

The Tribal Land barbarians, are not natives either, they care and think a great deal about Kilgor's successor. The hero cast of the game, suggests a lack of native inhabitants, simply beacause for the most part, the Heroes III heros have carried over from Heroes III.

Natives would have be a whole faction in their own right, with their own spells, heros and creatures. No such faction exists, nor is there a single hero who is mentioned as bieng native.

Merfolk are not natives, Merfolk were in Heroes III. I think Sea Monsters may be native though.

It is likely the merfolk simply migrated to the seas of the Axeoth, through underwater portals.

As for the nature community in the Death Campaign, remember that while the main population in Heroes III, is always located in their main kingdom, in elves case Av Lee, there are also elven communities in Heroes II, that is Antagarich, which are not (I don't know too much about this) concentrated in such a way.

Also, there are often communities located within the area of another main races domain, in Heroes II, it also seems to be the case that migration happened for political reasons too, as allies set up towns (say Bracada in Erathia), in order to help the other race in their time of peril.

In the Nature campaign, isolated communities, isolated from Aranorn are mentioned and Elwin run's across one, called Dandelion.

The refugees did not neatly arive in the same place, nor were their communities even located neatly in a particular place. There was a great level of overlap between the regions of the various aligments and this led to places getting dragged far away from the rest. This is officially the case, in game.

The Red Dwarves are not natives, definately not. The reason is that they are loyal to the Immortal King, and happily help him build Dragon Golems , even if they manage to destroy most of them beacause they have a riot due to an unknown disagreement.

No, the Red Dwarves are most likely a dwarf community deep within Bracada in origin. They don't get on too well with the 'normal' dwarves, which lived among, strangely enough the elves of AvLee.

This explains why Gavin Magnus was able to enlist their aid, while others had found them isolationist and disinterested in the surface world. Their aid to CONQUER THE WORLD. Not a small thing.

I reckon that the campaign starts around 20 years after the Reckoning, this gives characters who were only children when the reckoning happened to grow up, and also time for people to build homes and get out of the basic settler mode.

The Nature faction coped particularly well, while the Might faction, coped extremely badly. The reason is that the nature faction, quite happily takes up root in any suitable area, and come to terms with natural changes by adapting. They are relatively sedentery, happy to establish a patch of ground and focus on getting the most out of the enviroment, and fiercely defending it from others.

Whilst the Might Faction, is by nature semi-nomadic and at the time was in a state of total war. If they don't like a place, they move on and find (or take) a better patch. Once there they exploit the area with the intention of getting the most out of it for a few years, before moving on. Combined with the extreme militerism that Kilgor had created, and the bloodlust he had encouraged, this boded badly for both internal peace and social stability.

I am most interested about Tatalia, what happened to the Gnolls and Lizardmen? I reckon that Tatalia (based on a clue from a hero) took a beating in war and was pushed back further and further into it's native swamps, when the reckoning occured, they found themselves in an area with no portals, or maybe portals going to another world entirely.

[ThunderTitan]

Natives would have be a whole faction in their own right, with their own spells, heroes and creatures. No such faction exists, nor is there a single hero who is mentioned as being native.

Well the H4 factions are different then the H3 ones, so it's more likely that the refugees got taken in by already existing factions, or adopted their customs.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Well the H4 factions are different then the H3 ones, so it's more likely that the refugees got taken in by already existing factions, or adopted their customs.

Unlikely, the only native intelligent creature that I can work out may exist, is the White Tiger, and this may well have been simply native to another part of the old world and was smart enough to escape through the portals.

If you look carefully at the factions and how they changed, you will notice that the Life Faction, is pretty much the same in many essential details, except that pikemen are now a more elite force and squires have been added. These changes simply reflect changes in militery strategy, caused by wartime innovations, and perhaps the loss of griffins.

Whilst factions based on alliances between different creatures, have been re-shuffled. For instance Dungeon creatures are mostly in the chaos list, but for instance harpies have now joined the Might List. The reason is simple, the new enviroment broke the old alliances, and particular creatures didn't reform them.

For instance, the question was asked in the Might Campaign, why did the centaurs hang around with elves for so long (and get used as cannon fodder, as any who play Heroes III will know)? The answer is beacause of tradition.

When the old world fell, the centaurs probably drifted away from the elves and forgot their traditions, beacause the elves wanted to claw nice little and heavily defended enclaves in the very chaotic few years, while the centaurs had wanted to roam around freely, in a sense enjoying the chaos. Presumably they then slowly wandered around, bieng driven further north-westwards as different petty republics and kingdoms put more land to the till and didn't appreciate nomads like the centaurs roaming about.

Then they wandered through what is now Lodwar and north-east into the Tribal Lands, where they then allied themselves with the barbarians who lived there, beacause their lifestyles and mannerisms were fairly similar and more importantly, there was plenty of employment as merceneries for the warring barbarian factions. This arrangement, originally based upon conveniance, eventually became 'tradition', and the centaurs increasingly came to resemble and think like barbarians .

[Kareeah Indaga]

I reckon that the campaign starts around 20 years after the Reckoning, this gives characters who were only children when the reckoning happened to grow up, and also time for people to build homes and get out of the basic settler mode.

You’re dead wrong on at least two counts, and probably more. Lysander’s happened about 4 years after the Reckoning, Tawni’s didn’t spell it out nice and plainly but it was definitely less than 20 years. I’ll look up the specifics (and the other campaigns) when I have more time.

[ThunderTitan]

If you look carefully at the factions and how they changed, you will notice that the Life Faction, is pretty much the same in many essential details, except that pikemen are now a more elite force and squires have been added.

Humans sticking together in a European middle ages fashion.... something quite common for M&M worlds (from my limited knowledge of the main M&M series).

The undead and the Kreegans are the most likely not to have found any coresponding factions, hence their alliance.

Then they wandered through what is now Lodwar and north-east into the Tribal Lands, where they then allied themselves with the barbarians who lived there, because their lifestyles and mannerisms were fairly similar and more importantly, there was plenty of employment as mercenaries for the warring barbarian factions. This arrangement, originally based upon convenience, eventually became 'tradition', and the centaurs increasingly came to resemble and think like barbarians.

20 years is nowhere nearly enough for it to become tradition.

[Marzhin]

@ Slayer of Cliffracers : I see why you think that, but I think you're forgetting something essential.

Simply put : it's not because the refugees are the focus of the campaigns that everybody they met are refugees too. Your argument seems to be : it is never stated they are natives. I could say : it is never stated that they aren't.

As you said, Waerjak campaign deals with him reuniting the various survivors from Krewlod (Gurg and the others) but that doesn't mean all the "barbarians" are necessarily refugees from Krewlod. In our own world, what the greeks and romans called "barbarians" were in fact various peoples : Francs, Visigoths, Huns, Gauls, and so on. In the same way, the H4 faction we call barbarians doesn't only represent "Krewlod's barbarians".

Look at Palaedra : only four years between the Reckoning and its foundation. Palaedra is a huge kingdom, with many cities and inhabitants. There simply can't have been that many survivors to the Reckoning. So we can assume the people of Palaedra is composed of both refugees and natives (who were probably living in small communities before being included in the kingdom).

There is simply too many inhabitants in Axeoth for all of them to be refugees.

And on the questions of the Red Dwarves : I haven't played this campaign in a long time but I thought they were only working for Magnus because he paid them a lot... Of course I could be wrong.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

You’re dead wrong on at least two counts, and probably more. Lysander’s happened about 4 years after the Reckoning, Tawni’s didn’t spell it out nice and plainly but it was definitely less than 20 years. I’ll look up the specifics (and the other campaigns) when I have more time.

Okay. 4 years is plenty of time to build a few towns and forts. Things must have moved FAST, but then things usually do in the Heroes IV world as we all know.

I guess it's probably about 2 years between the beginning of the Life Campaign and the end of the Might Campaign, and the interude in which the barbarians migrate southwards to trigger the beginning of Great Arcan. This would make 6 years between the Reckoning and Emilia's emergance, which is plenty of time for Emilia to grow up.

Code: Select all

Humans sticking together in a European middle ages fashion.... something quite common for M&M worlds (from my limited knowledge of the main M&M series).

The undead and the Kreegans are the most likely not to have found any coresponding factions, hence their alliance.

True, but I've already established that M&M and Heroes IV storylines are different in a few respects. M&M has a native population for it's new world, while the Heroes IV world makes no mention of any native population at all, all intelligent biengs are defined by the experiance of the reckoning.

The Undead and Demons I think allied together beacause well they are both evil and everyone knows it. If I recall correctly, Undead and Demons got closer together politically, due to common circumstances, that is being evil and everyone knows it, and also trying to take over the world.

The end of the old world, obliterated the old settlements and thus freed the two races to come closer together, also the demonic leadership departed for another world with most of their forces when the reckoning happened, the remaining demons are kind of the stragglers who got left behind and used the portals, or perhaps scouts of some kind.

So the remaining demons turn to their necromatic allies for protection, and the distinction between the two breaks down.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

@ Slayer of Cliffracers : I see why you think that, but I think you're forgetting something essential.

Simply put : it's not because the refugees are the focus of the campaigns that everybody they met are refugees too. Your argument seems to be : it is never stated they are natives. I could say : it is never stated that they aren't.

As you said, Waerjak campaign deals with him reuniting the various survivors from Krewlod (Gurg and the others) but that doesn't mean all the "barbarians" are necessarily refugees from Krewlod. In our own world, what the greeks and romans called "barbarians" were in fact various peoples : Francs, Visigoths, Huns, Gauls, and so on. In the same way, the H4 faction we call barbarians doesn't only represent "Krewlod's barbarians".

Look at Palaedra : only four years between the Reckoning and its foundation. Palaedra is a huge kingdom, with many cities and inhabitants. There simply can't have been that many survivors to the Reckoning. So we can assume the people of Palaedra is composed of both refugees and natives (who were probably living in small communities before being included in the kingdom).

There is simply too many inhabitants in Axeoth for all of them to be refugees.

And on the questions of the Red Dwarves : I haven't played this campaign in a long time but I thought they were only working for Magnus because he paid them a lot... Of course I could be wrong.

We have to consider first, how big is Axeloth. I think Axeloth is a lot smaller than the old world.

Erathia is massive, that is the impression I get from the Heroes III campaign. Add Antagarich which is also pretty huge, and you've got a very large area and consistantly a very large number of people.

Think how many battles it took for the Kreegans and Nighon to get anywhere. Think of the size of those maps. Think of the way that it took a number of large maps to even get close enough to the capital to attack it, and even then it wasn't enough to destroy Erathia.

Combine all these factors, and we are talking about a massive land area.

Think of Life RL Russia and China combined. Erathia is Russia, Antagarich is China. Big places.


Now take our "countless fortunate refugees", this is not a small number of people and imagine Axeoth as a lot smaller.

The simple answer to this, is no Axeoth Kingdom, actually covers a very large area. They are all probably no bigger than say RL Great Britain. Together the whole world is about as big as maybe Europe.

The mortality rates from the reckoning, do not appear to have been so great, given the number of heros that have survived, so there is quite a lot of people from our China/Russia, moving into Europe.

Not only this, but it's also fairly scarcely populated. There are wilderness areas, one can surmise that people got mostly dumped fairly close together.

You haven't played the campaign for a while, that is your problem. Not only that but you must pay a great deal of attention to what is actually said in game and take note of all the small, seemingly irrelavent details.

By the way, Wearjak never fights Gurg , he fights Vogel Backbreaker and Hundric the Fat.

Gurg is the leader of one group of barbarians which Emilia fights in the first map, the 'Red team' barbarians. He boasts when he gets drunk of bieng Kilgor's successor. Our barbarian group, is directly linked to the Old World.

Secondly, to destroy your Erathia is mostly populated by reffugees theory, it doesn't make political sense. The ruling nobility, are Erathian and they owe their position not to Lysander but to their position in the old world.

Nowhere does Lysander come across, or even mention any population which is not affected by the reckoning. They are all motivated by it, it defines the whole world.

The Wheel isn't natives, it is a bunch of people who basically came to the conclusion to isolate themselves politically, based upon their experiances in the old world.

How exactly does a bunch of devestated refugees, which you hold to have been small in number, manage to overwhelm and impose a state based system, on a bunch of native people which they would have little in common with, without any mention of conflict, without any mention of genocide. This does not happen. The differences would make natives at least a town faction.

They not only arrived, but they know rule and have assimilated the natives to such an extent that this causes no trouble. All this in 4 years, how exactly?

Even your case of Emilia vs the barbarians is flawed, beacause I have pointed out that they are led by barbarians from Krewlod and Antagarich. If you look at the heros leading them all the other barbarians, what do you find. Barbarians from Krewlod and Antagarich.

So this is not native resistance, but one group of refugees fighting eachother, the leaders being mostly assosiated with King Kilgor.

[Gaidal Cain]

Secondly, to destroy your Erathia is mostly populated by reffugees theory, it doesn't make political sense. The ruling nobility, are Erathian and they owe their position not to Lysander but to their position in the old world.

How exactly does a bunch of devestated refugees, which you hold to have been small in number, manage to overwhelm and impose a state based system, on a bunch of native people which they would have little in common with, without any mention of conflict, without any mention of genocide. This does not happen. The differences would make natives at least a town faction.

138 spaniards were enough to defeat 80 000 inca soldiers. Given sufficiently advanced technology/magic in favor of the Erathians, there could have been a relatively quick takeover, in which case they quickly gained a popluation basis to use.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

138 spaniards were enough to defeat 80 000 inca soldiers. Given sufficiently advanced technology/magic in favor of the Erathians, there could have been a relatively quick takeover, in which case they quickly gained a popluation basis to use.

I'd thought of that, but the problem with it, was the spaniards were not a 'few desperate refugees' but elite soldiers on a mission to explore and conquer.

In this case, we have a few desperate individuals, whose weaponry and armour is likely now obliterated along with the Old World.

They have no resource base to conquer, and no means to do so. They would entirely at the mercy of the native inhabitents, they would assimilate into their populations fairly quickly, if they survived, or they would die.

An already populated world, would place the refugees in a position where, however primitive the native inhabitents may have been, they would be in an even worse position.

Also, takeover by a small refugee elite, would leave some kind of trace behind. Historically, the conquistadors had the backing of Spain, so however small in number they may have been, they had a far wider pool of support, upon which to call.

The only greater background of support on which to call that the refugees had would be eachother, which is unlikely given the fact the refugees appear to be for the most part in conflict with one-another.

The divided and factional nature of the refugees, would weaken them still further, while common circumstances would encourage unity among the natives. In a bid to defeat rival groups, they would arm the natives with their own weaponry and magic, which would erode the supremacy upon which their rule rests.

In short, the natives would rise up and most likely try to kill them, and this would be the defining feuture of all the campaigns. But no, the defining feuture of the campaigns, is the constant feuding and chaos among the refugees, the refugees fight people who share the same principle background.

Judging from the campaigns, everyone high and low, remembers such individuals as King Kilgor and the reckoning.

If there was natives, then they would be mentioned somewhere. Even if they had conquered them, then the wars needed to pacify them, would be mentioned. But no, the campaigns and their backgrounds are all refugee VSrefugee, never refugeeVSnative.