About bone dragons & wights

[Adicto]

Warning: my poor english can hurt your eyes!

First: this is not a whining thread. I’m trying to make a serious debate about the quality/price ratio of those 2 creatures. I don’t want to make necropolis stronger, only more fun to play. Said that, let’s start:

The whole necropolis is built around a single concept: a large army; large enough to compensate the relative weakness of some creatures. That is correct almost 100%, but the problem is: if you make some creature very weak but numerous, does the quantity compensates the quality, or is it more of the same useless thing?

I’m going to start with bone/spectral dragons:
The Dragon Graveyard cost 20 wood, 20 ore, 20 merc & 6.000gp. The gold cost is ok, but 20 merc & 20 ore for this…:
AT – 27
DF – 28
DM – 15-30
INI – 11
SP – 6
HP – 150
Undead – Flyer – Large creature
Good AT & DF, but average speed, average init, low HP, crappy damage and 0 combat abilities…

When you can afford such expensive dwelling bone dragons are totally eclipsed by most of creatures (that crappy damage…), so you lose them easily in battle without making profitable the HUGE investment on them. The cost of the Dragon Vault & Dragons Tombstone doesn’t help:
D.vault: 20 wood, 10 ore, 15merc, 8.000gp
D.tombstone: 10 ore, 10 merc, 3.000gp

So necromancers are always playing like if their town has only 6 creatures, and that is not funny. Bone dragons should have some ability to be useful, not even a good one, only a single reason to include them in your army! Actually those creatures are flying hitpoints, like expensive movable obstacles.

Now about wraiths:
AT – 26
DF – 24
DM – 25-30
INI – 11
SP – 6
HP – 100
Undead – Harm Touch – Large creature
They have great attack potential and low hit points, no problems with that, but unlike most of offensive creatures they cannot cross the battlefield in 1 turn to make damage before get crushed. With only 6 speed they cannot reach the enemy lines in the first turn, not even with Tactics… The result is that the enemy knows that wraiths are the only decent damage dealers of necro army, so wraiths suffer heavy loses by hands of fast and deadly creatures like paladins, dragons, grim raiders, nightmares, creberi, djinn sultans, warlords, etc… which means that you lose (again) the HUGE investment in those OVERPRICED (1.800gp) wraiths even BEFORE make any use of them. In addition Harm Touch is a weak & broken ability that not even allows you to choose from where to attack with it…

Wights are even worse: that creatures are just a giant version of skeletons, nothing more. They have no abilities and suffer the same speed problem than wraiths, so necromancers buy them because… well, you need to spend the money in something! at least wraiths make some good damage.

Some people will argue that now you can raise dragons and wraiths, but that means nothing. Lichs and vampires are much better creatures, very useful at any stage of the game, so will you raise dragons or wraiths when you can raise lichs or vampires? No.


Conclusion: I would suggest a new useful ability for both creatures, but I fear it would lead to a new crusade against necro, even if the added abilities are the worst ones you can imagine, so I say: Make them cheaper, damn it!

Any suggestions? Need wraiths & b.dragons a change after all?

[Jolly Joker]

The price in resources has nothing to do with the strength of the unit.
The resource cost are so darn high because you can immediately start the creeping machine and never have to look back. Because of that resource costs are outrageous. It's hard to get the level 7 dwelling and it's hard to grade the higher dwellings up and it's correct that way.
If Necro isn't weaker than the rest - and it certainly isn't - you'd have to compensate any change with a nerf something else.

[sezerp]

I agree with JJ on this. Necro is not weak. Wraiths may be expensive, but once you get them, you can keep them alive with Raise Dead and Eternal Servitude, so you don't loose that many. And if you get your other valuable units from Necromancy, then you CAN afford bying them, can't you ?

That's the point - you can get a lot of good units free of charge. The other factions will loose troops while creeping - you will get them. To keeps things more or less balances Necro build up simply has to be expensive.

Not to mention, that if you don't have Wraiths protecting your Liches, it will be them those fearsome Paladins/GrimRaiders/Nightmares will go for. OTOH if you have them:
- Paladins attack Wraiths. The toll on W. is heavy - though luck
- Archliches and Skellies shoot at Paladins with no penalty - Paladins are dead (alternative, they cast insanely strong Decay on one of the opponent's key units)
- .. battle goes on ...
- Your hero casts Raise Dead on Wraiths (several times if needed) getting back most of them.

[okrane]

as I stated on UBI forums:

Wights should be cheaper... or give them something like a melee resistance(like -25% melee damage)... they are souls aren't they? - still we wouldn't want to make necro stronger than it already is...
Or something like(which would be insanely strong) - when it kills a units it has a change to summon the ghost of that unit on the battlefield(like a 25% chance) - the number of ghosts summoned cannot exceed the number of wights/wraiths in the stack... if harm touch is used the ghost is automatically summoned(100% chance)

another god idea was that Harm Touch stole all positive benefits from a target, which I really liked. - was it yours Adicto aka Final Boss???

otoh... I do not like bone dragons... their building is way too expensive for what you get and additionally they are just some lame flying bones that seem to fall apart... not to mention they are one of the zilion dragons in this game.

To change this I would:
- replace them with Death Knigths - who should have the same stats like the bonies(or less even) and the same growth.
- replace the ability that kills half the stack with something like a critical strike(x2 damage - like in H3)
- give their normal attack a chance to cast a random curse at the enemy(Weakness, Confusion, Disrupting Ray, Slow, Suffering) at advanced or expert level
- reduce the cost of the building - at least the wood and ore reqs, if not the mercury too...

or any of the above...

[Elvin]

Actually it's 20 mecury for the dragons and that's why nobody builds them. You need mercury for mage guild, ghosts, vamps, liches, wights and some upgrades. Naturally you won't go for dragons and you won't be able to build the horde dwelling to make up in numbers at least. The only reason I would build them are the cursing spectral dragons but they require I think 20 more? Nival IS clueless.

[Blaze85]

as I stated on UBI forums:

another god idea was that Harm Touch stole all positive benefits from a target, which I really liked. - was it yours Adicto aka Final Boss???

To change this I would:
- replace them with Death Knigths - who should have the same stats like the bonies(or less even) and the same growth.

or any of the above...

Harm Touch stealing benefits is a great idea. I like it.

IMHO nival won't change the creatures' set up, too much time elapsed since the release.

[Adicto]

The price in resources has nothing to do with the strength of the unit.
The resource cost are so darn high because you can immediately start the creeping machine and never have to look back. Because of that resource costs are outrageous. It's hard to get the level 7 dwelling and it's hard to grade the higher dwellings up and it's correct that way.
If Necro isn't weaker than the rest - and it certainly isn't - you'd have to compensate any change with a nerf something else.

The fact is the price in resources affects seriously the strength of the unit; that is so true that necromancers never buy the dragon graveyard because is better spend those resources in upgrades. Think about it JJ, you can waste 20wood, 20ore, 20merc, and 6.000gp for 2 creatures that do nearly no damage, or you can upgrade all your vampires, liches & wights with that resources.

Bone dragons are crap, they are so crappy that you cannot make their dwelling so hard to get because then they are useless, a waste of resources (a lot of resources!), I mean: it is like if you buy a knife for 6.000 when verybody has assault rifles for just the same price. Bone dragons should be available much early because you get much more power by simply upgrading your other creatures, so who cares if bone dragons are available fast? you get more power by simply upgrading your vampires, lol!!

About wights/wraiths:
Almost the same problem than bone dragons but on much smaller scale: Actually before making any use of wraiths you've lost many of them = a waste of a lot of money. If you buy 15 wraiths it is like paying 27.000gp for 10 wraiths or less.

That is not balance, that is a badly designed faction where bad creatures are expensive and good ones are cheap.

[PhoenixReborn]

About wights/wraiths:
Almost the same problem than bone dragons but on much smaller scale: Actually before making any use of wraiths you've lost many of them = a waste of a lot of money. If you buy 15 wraiths it is like paying 27.000gp for 10 wraiths or less.

That is not balance, that is a badly designed faction where bad creatures are expensive and good ones are cheap.

You lost me here. Buying 15 wraiths is buying 15 wraiths not 10. You are unlikely to lose them because of raise dead (and motn). Also eternal servitude raises the highest level creature. The only way you would actually take losses is if you were fighting enemy heroes. And if you are then the map is almost over.

Your last comment is true of necro at least since heroes 2. I remember how crappy the bone dragons were compared to all others of their tier...and how great vamps were.

[Adicto]

another god idea was that Harm Touch stole all positive benefits from a target, which I really liked. - was it yours Adicto aka Final Boss???

I'm Final_boss' evil twin brother . The idea was suggested by a friend of mine, it is all his merit :]

[Adicto]

You lost me here. Buying 15 wraiths is buying 15 wraiths not 10. You are unlikely to lose them because of raise dead (and motn). Also eternal servitude raises the highest level creature. The only way you would actually take losses is if you were fighting enemy heroes. And if you are then the map is almost over.

Your last comment is true of necro at least since heroes 2. I remember how crappy the bone dragons were compared to all others of their tier...and how great vamps were.

Sorry, I have some lack of expression skills in english lol

I was talking about final battles, where wraiths suffer heavy loses before using them due to the lack of speed. All the other deadly but fragile creatures (paladins, nightmares, cerberi, grim raiders...) can hit the enemy in the first turn to make profitable their cost, but wraith cannot hit the enemy in the first turn even with Tactics, so you always attack with wraiths when you've already lost many of them. That is what I mean with "buying 15 wraiths it is like paying 27.000gp for 10 wraiths or less"

[Starbatron]

I agree completely about the bone dragons. I like the idea about a melee reduction, though perhaps when they become spectral, they can have an ability similar to the spectres, but with a higher chance of happening, something like 60 or 70 percent of the time. The cursing idea is probably the best idea for them. As for the wraiths, the easiest fix would be to simply increase their speed a little. After all, they float over the ground; how can they possibly be so slow?!

[winterfate]

though perhaps when they become spectral, they can have an ability similar to the spectres, but with a higher chance of happening,

I like the other ideas...but this one is just plain nasty.
Let's put this into perspective:

Spectral Dragons have 160 HP, the lowest of any upgraded level 7 unit (barring Phoenixes...but those are evil enough as is ). However, if you give them incorporeal (that evasion ability the spectres have) then they will become totally broken. Could you imagine fighting against a 160 HP level 7 unit you only have a 50% chance of hitting?

[Elvin]

Actually they are not TOO bad. The reason is that once you get to build them you can transform other tier 7 units to bone dragons and with the horde dwelling they gather in some numbers.
Hmm by the time you begin gathering them what will the opponent have?

[PhoenixReborn]

Adicto...I understand your point now. In one way that means that they have done their job, taking the hits for the army. But your arguing is that they are too expensive for such a purpose.

Actually I think that can be applied to most level 7's since they die like flies.

[winterfate]

Well, that was done to "rebalance" the unit tiers (back in H3, stacks of Level 7 units ruled the map).

I personally miss the way the level 7 units were...

[Ufo234]

but why are u ppl all forgettin the fact that their undead wich gives em like a ton of bonuses. u can control most of the tier 7 units with either frenzy or puppet master. the opponent cant to anything like that to ur spectrals or any other monster. immune to poison? assasin become rather usess againt them.
immune to blindness? yet again a good unit of sylvan becomes useless.
correct me if im wrong but the thing their undead makes them already very good IMHO.

[Elvin]

And the inherent hope that your opponent won't have leadership Because if he does...

[Ufo234]

then u can just destroy him with ultimate + mass slow since now its possible when Motn moved from the dark magic tree i love the ultimate now. and i already feeling sorry for the fortress heroes with emphaty poor them.....

[Adicto]

Adicto...I understand your point now. In one way that means that they have done their job, taking the hits for the army. But your arguing is that they are too expensive for such a purpose.

That's it, cannon folder troops are supposed to be very cheap because are the ones who take the damage. Actually when you buy bone dragons you waste A LOT (I mean, an amazingly stupid amount) of resources for a job that can be done BETTER by 1 plain, stupid, and weak ghost = take retaliations, block paths, or just waste some enemy attacks.

That is so obviously stupid that the only non-supernatural explanation I can find is: The balance is tweaked by an angry clown.

then u can just destroy him with ultimate + mass slow since now its possible when Motn moved from the dark magic tree i love the ultimate now. and i already feeling sorry for the fortress heroes with emphaty poor them.....

Sure... in your wet dreams. In multiplayer games you will never reach the needed lvl.

[Elvin]

Forget the ultimate. You can't even plan with dark magic as a following mass haste can turn things around. Destroy? Hardly.