I have found that Wraiths and Spectral Dragons do hold their own against same tier critters. The wraiths are fast for Necro and do Awe inspiring damage against everything except Treants. The Spectral Dragons are I think a killer unit because they deal enough damage and they never die while the necro has spell points, their only downside is their too low speed which needs an upgrade.( hopefully in a patch)
Anyhow I like the classification system but I think it will still have problems based on peoples perception of the game. In example I put War Dancers as the second nastiest tier 2 troop, mainly because of how the Sylvan plays they end up getting sacrificed to save the real power houses. Their Stats and weekly growth makes them outshine pretty much every level 2 out there except for Furies. Others would disagree that they are useful at all.
Trying a classification system for units and their heroes
Well I respect your opinon, I deffinately would not put them in the same league with Marksmen. Now demons maybe even a little less worthwhile then dancers, and zombies are pretty slow..ok I think I do have to (thanks to JJ and others) think again on dancers. I mean their compition in tier 2 is not too steller. Zombies (slow even if tough), Demons (only good thing is when they go boom), Gargoyles (again slow but at least they fly and can resist magic so a bit better then zombies), Spearchuckers (ranged but unupgraded not so hot of ranged), Furies (now these are the best for tier 2 imo)..as I said not really great contenders. So while they move up a notch or 2 on my respect list, still probably least useful sylvan troop (besides soaking up retals and damage).
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Jolly Joker
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I like to say a couple of things here.
Let me tell you first that I'm going to put up Haven in, well 3 hours or so. However, that will be it then for the time being, because I'm gpoing to be off tomorrow for 3 days and not being able to do this again.
First thing, I respect all opinions here because the obviously come from game experience.
Now Banedon said - I'm not picking on you, Banedon, believe me, I'm just quoting here -, Hunters and Druids were so good, so why wouldn't you just sit around? I could answer this in detail (and Haven will show at least the Haven part of the answer), but my opinion is, this is the best tactic for Necro, and it's not difficult to make a case of it.
1) Necro has a stable initiative throughout: average, nothing special. No chance of Moral, not much chance on Luck either.
2) Necro has no Light spells - usually, that is, meaning probably 98 times out of hundred -, at least none that is worth casting
3) They have, however, all kinds of Dark Magic (creatures as well) to inhibit the opponent. Summoning is more about getting additional stuff onto the battlefield as well
4) Their trump card is the killer artillerie that will deal lots of heavy damage - and their is noy good way to deny that. Mass Deflect Arrows will help a ton against them, but they themselves cannot be blinded, raged or puppetmastered.
5) They have the Liches as well, another fine shooter and a nice bait to slip into range of the skellies.
Now, the nature of the Necro army is attrition, I think that is pretty correct. What can be the right tactic for such an army is very probably not the right one for Sylvans because they don't have not nearly the means to keep the threat of the hunters a threat. You cannot really guard against other armies neutralizing or inhibiting your precious hunters and once they are dead they are dead and gone, even with Resurrect - you are lacking the spell Power as a Ranger.
Back to Necro. Seeing those creatures as such, the Wraiths and the Dragons, sure, they are good. But they are no heavy killers because they won't be used as such. The Wraiths lack the speed, for instance. Even with Tactics they can't reach over the bf. And it would be complete folly to go and even try, you are well advised to hold your troops near the skellies, so that every unit of the opposition has to come in range of your shooters. Effectively, in a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a Hunter-Killer and against a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a hunter. Because even if you destroy the ammo cart you still have to win against them first.
The other thing is that all Necro units will have the lowest attack values.
The Necro level 21 qwill look 2 7 in Attack and Defense, a Knight will look 7 11
That gives a Wraith an attack of 28 and 25-30 damage. A complete weekly production is at 100-120 damage with 28 attack.
Now consider 10 BattleDiving Griffins. THEIR damage is 100-300 with an attack of 16. Let's attack a unit in the middle, defense 22. This brings the Wraiths damage up to 130-156. The multiplier for the Griffins is .77 for their minus 6, so they are at 77-231.
The average Wraith damage is 143. The average Griffin damage is 154. This isn't even factoring in boni for Offense or Defense, nor the fact that the Griffins won't get a retaliation. Nor the 15 Init of the Griffins or the fact that they can pick each unit they like.
Now, are Imperial Griffins Heavy Killers?
I don't think so.
Let me tell you first that I'm going to put up Haven in, well 3 hours or so. However, that will be it then for the time being, because I'm gpoing to be off tomorrow for 3 days and not being able to do this again.
First thing, I respect all opinions here because the obviously come from game experience.
Now Banedon said - I'm not picking on you, Banedon, believe me, I'm just quoting here -, Hunters and Druids were so good, so why wouldn't you just sit around? I could answer this in detail (and Haven will show at least the Haven part of the answer), but my opinion is, this is the best tactic for Necro, and it's not difficult to make a case of it.
1) Necro has a stable initiative throughout: average, nothing special. No chance of Moral, not much chance on Luck either.
2) Necro has no Light spells - usually, that is, meaning probably 98 times out of hundred -, at least none that is worth casting
3) They have, however, all kinds of Dark Magic (creatures as well) to inhibit the opponent. Summoning is more about getting additional stuff onto the battlefield as well
4) Their trump card is the killer artillerie that will deal lots of heavy damage - and their is noy good way to deny that. Mass Deflect Arrows will help a ton against them, but they themselves cannot be blinded, raged or puppetmastered.
5) They have the Liches as well, another fine shooter and a nice bait to slip into range of the skellies.
Now, the nature of the Necro army is attrition, I think that is pretty correct. What can be the right tactic for such an army is very probably not the right one for Sylvans because they don't have not nearly the means to keep the threat of the hunters a threat. You cannot really guard against other armies neutralizing or inhibiting your precious hunters and once they are dead they are dead and gone, even with Resurrect - you are lacking the spell Power as a Ranger.
Back to Necro. Seeing those creatures as such, the Wraiths and the Dragons, sure, they are good. But they are no heavy killers because they won't be used as such. The Wraiths lack the speed, for instance. Even with Tactics they can't reach over the bf. And it would be complete folly to go and even try, you are well advised to hold your troops near the skellies, so that every unit of the opposition has to come in range of your shooters. Effectively, in a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a Hunter-Killer and against a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a hunter. Because even if you destroy the ammo cart you still have to win against them first.
The other thing is that all Necro units will have the lowest attack values.
The Necro level 21 qwill look 2 7 in Attack and Defense, a Knight will look 7 11
That gives a Wraith an attack of 28 and 25-30 damage. A complete weekly production is at 100-120 damage with 28 attack.
Now consider 10 BattleDiving Griffins. THEIR damage is 100-300 with an attack of 16. Let's attack a unit in the middle, defense 22. This brings the Wraiths damage up to 130-156. The multiplier for the Griffins is .77 for their minus 6, so they are at 77-231.
The average Wraith damage is 143. The average Griffin damage is 154. This isn't even factoring in boni for Offense or Defense, nor the fact that the Griffins won't get a retaliation. Nor the 15 Init of the Griffins or the fact that they can pick each unit they like.
Now, are Imperial Griffins Heavy Killers?
I don't think so.
but if u consider battledive then consider harm touch- ONE wraith can do up to 300 damge (I belive this is the highest hp a creature has. correct me if i'm wrong)
so that's more then 10 imperial Griffins.
Divide your wraiths into stack of one and you have 900 damage from only 3 wraiths. that's enough for killing anything, and there's no retaliation
so that's more then 10 imperial Griffins.
Divide your wraiths into stack of one and you have 900 damage from only 3 wraiths. that's enough for killing anything, and there's no retaliation
Last edited by Odish on 17 Jan 2007, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
I think the only problem I have with the last post JJ is how they were compared. Taking into account the Hero and special abilities is fine, but you don't really add in the fact that raise dead is a major bonus nor the tactics and strategy that can modify the overall effectiveness of any given troop. Zombies are not bad, for example, its just that most of the time they sit around doing nothing because the other units take care of the battle for you.
When people say that X is better or worse than Y, they often justify it with how they play and the stats, I for one thought that Spectral dragons looked horrible on paper and yet with the same weeks growth they do very respectable damage for a tier 7. This however doesn't mean that a unit is bad, what it means is that how you utilize the unit leaves the unit looking poor. There is no critter that I would say is bad, they all have their uses. Some of the uses for critters are more esoteric than others, Horned Overseers are quite a functional T2 critter but you won't see this unless someone stumbles into their attack range.
My current feeling is that all critters have a threshold of effectiveness. What I mean by this is that for example Elder Druids can Lightning from the get go but once you reach about 50-65 of them the Lightning is usually not as useful as shooting. Another example is that Paladins while being very good its usually a bad idea to take fewer than 4 as below 4 they don't do enough damage or last long enough.
Just some food for thought.
When people say that X is better or worse than Y, they often justify it with how they play and the stats, I for one thought that Spectral dragons looked horrible on paper and yet with the same weeks growth they do very respectable damage for a tier 7. This however doesn't mean that a unit is bad, what it means is that how you utilize the unit leaves the unit looking poor. There is no critter that I would say is bad, they all have their uses. Some of the uses for critters are more esoteric than others, Horned Overseers are quite a functional T2 critter but you won't see this unless someone stumbles into their attack range.
My current feeling is that all critters have a threshold of effectiveness. What I mean by this is that for example Elder Druids can Lightning from the get go but once you reach about 50-65 of them the Lightning is usually not as useful as shooting. Another example is that Paladins while being very good its usually a bad idea to take fewer than 4 as below 4 they don't do enough damage or last long enough.
Just some food for thought.
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Jolly Joker
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@Aulfgar
I agree completely with your post.
I'm not quite sure whether this is clear, but the aim of this was to find this for late game end situations because otherwise you won't have all the upgraded units in an army. On the other hand it makes not that much sense to view units without the hero leading them because Skeleton Archers, for example, are a rather weak unit, if you had to rely on the normal town production. It's solely the hero that will make them so dominant.
So this is more of an "end battle" classification (which is the reason why it makes no sense to start to compare Griffins with single Wraiths).
On the other hand it might make sense to think things a bit more over. While it is true, that if you consider heroes the Wraiths won't kill THAT much against the defensively strong Rangers and Knights, however they may score well against, for example, Inferno and Dungeon who don't come with much additional defense, so they would be Medium Killers against the first and Heavy Killers against the latter, which doesn't make that much sense.
I agree completely with your post.
I'm not quite sure whether this is clear, but the aim of this was to find this for late game end situations because otherwise you won't have all the upgraded units in an army. On the other hand it makes not that much sense to view units without the hero leading them because Skeleton Archers, for example, are a rather weak unit, if you had to rely on the normal town production. It's solely the hero that will make them so dominant.
So this is more of an "end battle" classification (which is the reason why it makes no sense to start to compare Griffins with single Wraiths).
On the other hand it might make sense to think things a bit more over. While it is true, that if you consider heroes the Wraiths won't kill THAT much against the defensively strong Rangers and Knights, however they may score well against, for example, Inferno and Dungeon who don't come with much additional defense, so they would be Medium Killers against the first and Heavy Killers against the latter, which doesn't make that much sense.
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Gaidal Cain
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You're thinking too hardJolly Joker wrote:On the other hand it might make sense to think things a bit more over. While it is true, that if you consider heroes the Wraiths won't kill THAT much against the defensively strong Rangers and Knights, however they may score well against, for example, Inferno and Dungeon who don't come with much additional defense, so they would be Medium Killers against the first and Heavy Killers against the latter, which doesn't make that much sense.
You shouldn't have to reclassify a unit depending on who they face, you have to make a good classification of the enemy units. No unit exists in a vacuum, and reclassifying them depending on more than a few parameters (such as whether the hero has "March of the Golems") would be to make the system too complicated to be useable.You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett
No, disagreed. If the Skeleton Archers are the only stack that can really kill then Necropolis would be incapacitated once the Skeleton Archer stack goes down. They can kill. Why can't they? For all their low stats Spectral Dragons reproduce at 3/week and they still have much greater stats than most of the other creatures in the game. Same applies to Wraiths, they deal fine damage and have strong HP.Necro is Attrition. I might add an "Armored" status to Spectrals, though. That seems in order. A problem with the definition is, that a killer is a killer because of the fact that it can kill. Now, the Spectrals are no Heavy Killers because they cannot kill. They are solid, granted. But they aren't all that strong. They are no Heavy Killers, not compared to other units.
They can stand a punch, though. It's Necro: the only unit that can really kill are the skeletons, at least in a real battle with normal non-campaign heroes.
Skeleton Archers aren't the only killer units in the Necropolis army. They cannot be, or else a simple Mass Deflect Missiles would end things and make Necropolis severely underpowered. I disagree that Necropolis relies on attrition as well. Necropolis survives by making through neutral battles without losses, thereby having a bigger army in the final battle. Once there they duke it out, not hit/hit/hit/Raise Dead/hit/hit/hit.
No: if you hang back with Necropolis you are in trouble. Necropolis may have a powerful Skeleton Archer stack but it does not have that high an initiative nor that much of damage, unless Necromancy really worked wonders. Consider Necropolis vs. the other races. Haven would have an equally large stack of Marksmen to outfight the Skeleton Archers, backed by the Light Magic the Knight is bound to have (and the Inquistors). Sylvan's twin Ranged creatures would bring the Skeleton Archers down with ease (I remember my Findan in the campaigns wiping out 4k Skeleton Archers [led by a hero with comparable stats] with 100+ Master Hunters without losses - albeit backed by Resurrection). Dungeon would toss Empowered Implosions while attacking with the Shadow Matriaches and Blood Furies while Academy has three Ranged units to outfight the Skeleton Archers with. Inferno is the only race who'll charge Necropolis.Back to Necro. Seeing those creatures as such, the Wraiths and the Dragons, sure, they are good. But they are no heavy killers because they won't be used as such. The Wraiths lack the speed, for instance. Even with Tactics they can't reach over the bf. And it would be complete folly to go and even try, you are well advised to hold your troops near the skellies, so that every unit of the opposition has to come in range of your shooters. Effectively, in a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a Hunter-Killer and against a Necro army each unit is first and foremost a hunter. Because even if you destroy the ammo cart you still have to win against them first.
The Wraiths may lack speed but it doesn't mean Necropolis is useless at charging. You don't have to move as far as you can at once, the Wraiths can do what the Paladins always do. You might take Ranged fire but it'll be at half damage. You might have to face the entire enemy army - so be it. Simply, Necropolis doesn't have the firepower to engage in a Ranged duel.
The problem is you're assuming the Battle Dive hits. If it does I would indeed agree Imperial Griffins are Heavy Killers. The problem is it might not, and the Battle Dive takes time to activate. You could be placing the Imperial Griffins out of action for two turns to deal zero damage and placing them within range of the enemy army. You've only considered the damage and not the drawbacks to using Battle Dive.
The average Wraith damage is 143. The average Griffin damage is 154. This isn't even factoring in boni for Offense or Defense, nor the fact that the Griffins won't get a retaliation. Nor the 15 Init of the Griffins or the fact that they can pick each unit they like.
Now, are Imperial Griffins Heavy Killers?
I don't think so.
It can be upwards 1000but if u consider battledive then consider harm touch- ONE wraith can do up to 300 damge (I belive this is the highest hp a creature has. correct me if i'm wrong)
Phoenixes.@Sylvan - Think of a race that can afford to hang back against Sylvan, neglecting Academy which is the only possible exception. Now:
Dungeon and the Empowered Implosion gets neutralized by Magical Immunity (so it goes through, but it deals less damage and the Warlock doesn't have infinite spell points). The Ranger may cast Mass Haste (allowing the Emerald Dragons to deal hit-and-run damage), Resurrection, Mass Righteous Might and so on. If Dungeon runs out of spell points casting Destructive magic the resulting battle between buffed and unbuffed creatures would be painful indeed.
Inferno had better charge, since the only ranged unit doesn't deal that much single-target damage and the Pit Lords can only cast twice (and get neutralized by Magical Immunity).
Haven had better charge since Sylvan still outdamages Haven (and have Warding Arrow too).
Necropolis had better charge. The Skeleton Archer stack cannot possibly outdamage the Master Hunters and Druid Elders - it's a level 3 and level 4 stack against a level 1 after all.
In short, every race except possibly Academy has to attack Sylvan. If you attack with Sylvan you're giving up on your ranged advantage. Yes Sylvan's creatures all have high initiative and the Ranger will have Luck to back them up, but if you can kill your opponent's entire army with just one attack it isn't the final battle at all. You must assume a great deal of them will still be alive and you will suffer for it.
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Jolly Joker
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I'm not going to discuss this, since we seem to live in completely different worlds.
You may have played the campaigns and made your conclusions. I've played maps and made other conclusions. If you want to sit around and wait and let the Hunters do the work, do it. I'm not going to try and tell you to do otherwise. But if you think you can judge from playing campaigns how things play out on a normal map, where everyone starts out with the same, heroes are mediocre when they clash, no one has flashy artifacts and so on, and your opponent isn't scripted to be and do something, you probably should reconsider and play simple normal games first.
I mean, with Nival's seeming fondness of the Dark Elves, do you really think they'd made the Sylvans so that they can lean back and start composing their haikus while the Hunters kill the opposition?
You may have played the campaigns and made your conclusions. I've played maps and made other conclusions. If you want to sit around and wait and let the Hunters do the work, do it. I'm not going to try and tell you to do otherwise. But if you think you can judge from playing campaigns how things play out on a normal map, where everyone starts out with the same, heroes are mediocre when they clash, no one has flashy artifacts and so on, and your opponent isn't scripted to be and do something, you probably should reconsider and play simple normal games first.
I mean, with Nival's seeming fondness of the Dark Elves, do you really think they'd made the Sylvans so that they can lean back and start composing their haikus while the Hunters kill the opposition?
Exactly....the Dungeon's army strike & no retaliation is simply too good especially for the first 2 levels of units you get, coupled with a hero capable of dishing heavy Arty in day 1 (Sinitar) it's simply unbelivable that anyone can have the luxury of sitting back while facing this kind of army, completely relying on range.
The two things statistically that are against Wraith being a Heavy killer are speed of 6 and the Hero Necromancer, having defence as a secondary attribute and hardly no attack.
Otherwise he is amazing. Highest attack 26, highest damage 25-30, initiative 11 is good enough. The ability to instantly kill a single enemy with any amount of HP, regardless of defence (how often have I slowly killed Black Dragons with Wraiths...) And their durability cannot be an issue either as they have solid HP, second highest defence 24 after Treant and of course the general tendency to defence as a Necromancer.
But true is also, that enemy will more often come to you than you will go to them. So which one weights more in the scale, that they do good damage with a good initiative and a can-be-a-killer speciality OR that there is usually no need to move them far from your lines as you will be having the biggest range-power?
About the Skeleton Archers being the real killers... It just is so, because it is the easiest way. I would wan't to divide the damage more evenly among my troops, but it is foolish. You can get it all and more from the skeletons if you take the right skills and perhaps artifacts.
Hehe, I just remembered the ability Cold Steel from beta. Those Skeletons were really something...
Otherwise he is amazing. Highest attack 26, highest damage 25-30, initiative 11 is good enough. The ability to instantly kill a single enemy with any amount of HP, regardless of defence (how often have I slowly killed Black Dragons with Wraiths...) And their durability cannot be an issue either as they have solid HP, second highest defence 24 after Treant and of course the general tendency to defence as a Necromancer.
But true is also, that enemy will more often come to you than you will go to them. So which one weights more in the scale, that they do good damage with a good initiative and a can-be-a-killer speciality OR that there is usually no need to move them far from your lines as you will be having the biggest range-power?
About the Skeleton Archers being the real killers... It just is so, because it is the easiest way. I would wan't to divide the damage more evenly among my troops, but it is foolish. You can get it all and more from the skeletons if you take the right skills and perhaps artifacts.
Hehe, I just remembered the ability Cold Steel from beta. Those Skeletons were really something...
See and this is why no one classification system, regardless of how it is handled, will ever be correct. Everybody (and their brother) sees things a bit differently. There is no right classification system. It doesn't matter if you managed to take every possible skill combination, hero stat, artifact and buff from every possible stat booster on a map (pretty much impossible) somebody is going to disagree with a classification or two. Not that the classifications here are not very good, and very thorough however. So, I will await the next town see how JJ and Banedon (and any others) classify the units. Who knows it may alter my own thoughts on units (like the dancers).
Warning, may cause confusion, blindness, raising of eybrows, and insanity.
JJ,
Here is my take on it, as a food for thought, why not just treat all critters as though they were not backed by a hero. This way we see the critters themselves and not just how they are augmented by their hero.
Anyhow I really like this topic, lets continue the discussion.
Here is my take on it, as a food for thought, why not just treat all critters as though they were not backed by a hero. This way we see the critters themselves and not just how they are augmented by their hero.
Anyhow I really like this topic, lets continue the discussion.
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Jolly Joker
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Because it is pretty obvious what they are without a hero and it doesn't explain their performance in the actual game then.
For example, there isn't that much difference between a basic Gremlin and a Skeleton Archer except that the Archer has a moderately better Initiative. That notwithstanding, in normal terms they would qualify as Light Artillery (or basic support shooters or whatever). You cannot explain the fact that Skeleton Archers will play a very different role in the Necro's army than the Gremlins in the Wizard's without throwing in the hero effect.
The same is true for Dungeon. You HAVE to find a way to classify the hero as well and as Heavy Artillery (or main Support shooter or whatever), because otherwise the Dungeon army doesn't work.
So I would say mainly that simply classifying a creature out of the dwelling is treating them all as neutrals which makes no sense to me because it means leaving out the main part of the game.
For example, there isn't that much difference between a basic Gremlin and a Skeleton Archer except that the Archer has a moderately better Initiative. That notwithstanding, in normal terms they would qualify as Light Artillery (or basic support shooters or whatever). You cannot explain the fact that Skeleton Archers will play a very different role in the Necro's army than the Gremlins in the Wizard's without throwing in the hero effect.
The same is true for Dungeon. You HAVE to find a way to classify the hero as well and as Heavy Artillery (or main Support shooter or whatever), because otherwise the Dungeon army doesn't work.
So I would say mainly that simply classifying a creature out of the dwelling is treating them all as neutrals which makes no sense to me because it means leaving out the main part of the game.
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Mightor Magic
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Now that I disagree with but then again, that is the difference on how we play. If you include the Hero as part of the classification then you have a particular skill set up in mind, one that will be there each and every time which just does not happen.Jolly Joker wrote:The same is true for Dungeon. You HAVE to find a way to classify the hero as well and as Heavy Artillery (or main Support shooter or whatever), because otherwise the Dungeon army doesn't work.
So I would say mainly that simply classifying a creature out of the dwelling is treating them all as neutrals which makes no sense to me because it means leaving out the main part of the game.
Example: The skeleton archer needs Archery and Battle Frenzy. However, the Necromancer doesn't start with it and the when a Necromancer doesn't get those skills, don't expect to see the Skeleton Archer to dominate the Necromancer strategy.
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Gaidal Cain
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Unique skills will be there every time. It would be a very bad sytem if it didn't include Necromancers' ability to generate huge amounts of skeletons, or the fact that demons can gate... Further, every town is associated with two magic schools, and these need to be considered as well.
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Gaidal Cain
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Yea, and then I can try playing without using any of my units' inherent special abilities...
Most heroes goes together with the units in their town (Warlocks and Rangers(?) are exceptions, but you still need their respective towns if you want to make full use of them). Playing with an other hero is akin to exchanging one of the creatures- it might happen, but it won't be often enough that a good classification system should take it into account.
Most heroes goes together with the units in their town (Warlocks and Rangers(?) are exceptions, but you still need their respective towns if you want to make full use of them). Playing with an other hero is akin to exchanging one of the creatures- it might happen, but it won't be often enough that a good classification system should take it into account.
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Mightor Magic
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Necromany? I wasn't talking about special skills but rather Attack/Archery/Battle Frenzy. I have tried using skeleton archers without them {never came up} and they don't work, no matter how many you have. On the other hand, I had 150 Vampire Lords {A very helpful neutral stack was just waiting there} so I wasn't lacking for power.
I am the type to use Magic skills that are not part of the mage guild. Summoning on a Ranger? Destructive with Necromancer? Sure but I draw the line at using Dark with Dungeon. Come to think on it, does anyone actually use the available Summoning magic with Dungeon? Since they were former Elves, the Guild should focus on Destructive and Light.
As for conflicitng Heroes/Towns, that does tend to happen with me on large maps. Conquer a new Faction and hire a high level Hero with skills set up by the AI. Kythra works for every Faction except Necromancer, same for Rutger and Maeve.
Most Wizards would work with Necromancer towns, possibly even with a better result {Depends if you get Raise Dead and Phantom Forces}. Inferno? Go Light magic and Summoning Magic with a Wizard like Jhara. You lose out on Hellfire and gating but with Phantom Forces, Resurrection Teleport, RM and Haste possible, you may find you don't need them.
I am the type to use Magic skills that are not part of the mage guild. Summoning on a Ranger? Destructive with Necromancer? Sure but I draw the line at using Dark with Dungeon. Come to think on it, does anyone actually use the available Summoning magic with Dungeon? Since they were former Elves, the Guild should focus on Destructive and Light.
As for conflicitng Heroes/Towns, that does tend to happen with me on large maps. Conquer a new Faction and hire a high level Hero with skills set up by the AI. Kythra works for every Faction except Necromancer, same for Rutger and Maeve.
Most Wizards would work with Necromancer towns, possibly even with a better result {Depends if you get Raise Dead and Phantom Forces}. Inferno? Go Light magic and Summoning Magic with a Wizard like Jhara. You lose out on Hellfire and gating but with Phantom Forces, Resurrection Teleport, RM and Haste possible, you may find you don't need them.
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