Trying a classification system for units and their heroes

[Jolly Joker]

Okay, I'm moving this out of this 30 page thread because it got an own dynamic, at least for me.
The aim is to find a classification system for units and their heroes. The point of interest here is the classification in the context of the whole army, not for fighting neutrals or in the beginning. This is of course open to discussion.
Here are the definitions for units until now (I changed a few to make things a bit clearer)

Heavy means it can handle its job against every caliber of unit.
Light means it can effectively operate only against other light units.
Medium means that it can handle its job against every caliber of unit, but will not be able to do more than attrition damage against the heaviest.

Artillery means first and foremost that the unit is stationary and can reach the whole battlefield attack-wise. As such Artillery is a killer, but loses this status as soon as it's forced into melee (exceptions are mentioned)

Because of Artillery there are Hunters. Hunters are basically Artillery and Support Killers. Since Artillery and support units tend to be vulnerable in melee, the ideal hunter is fast and therefore not very durable. A hunter is effective against most artillery and some support units even if it doesn't kill them fully because of the hamper and harrassing effects

Armored means that the unit has some special(s) that makes it better prepared to suffer and survive damage which is a good thing for a hunter since they tend to storm up to the opponents The no-retaliation trait does NOT qualify to be considered as armored.

A Killer is the most versatile unit and is primarily used to do damage to the opposition with the clear task of killing or cripple. Used as a hunter it's a class heavier: A Light Killer is a Medium Hunter as well. A Medium Killer is a Heavy Hunter as well. A killer is faster than a hunter-killer and can actively search and destroy hunters (and of course other killers as well). As a killer a unit must be stronger in attack because it is important to KILL especially the hunters, if possible, not only to damage them to make harrassing and hampering impossible.

Support means, that the unit has means to strengthen the army, either by spells or special abilities.

A unit that is not a killer, but only a hunter-killer is slow and heavy for its level and used as a bodyguard mainly. It is generally not used as hunter or even killer, mainly because of its slowness (speed OR initiative), therefore, as a hunter-KILLER, it's more passive. Since they tend to be very durable, they can be used to soak up retaliations as well.

An Assault unit is able to attack more than one opponent at the same time and therefore capable of doing a potentially much higher amount of damage than normal.

Should something change here I'm going to edit this post. I'm adding my Necro and Sylvan classifications now.

[Jolly Joker]

Necro classification:

It's the Necro who makes such a heavy killer out of the Skeleton Archer because it's only the Necro hero with the Necromancy skill that makes sure that creature comes in quantity. Without the Necro that makes them plentiful the Skelly Archer wouldn't be more than a light support unit without any punch (which is what you get when you fight them as neutrals). So let's take a look at what the Necros with their characteristics do for the Necro armies:
a) He establishes the Skelly Archer as what I would call a Heavy Artillery unit (presently: super-heavy, but this will be patched); he does this primarily with Necromancy, but things like Frenzy, Archery, Toughness and so on help. A further help is the Raise Dead spell in combination with Summoning magic.
b) He supports the army with his second primary skill defense by making it more durable und therefore less easy to kill.
c) He supports the army with Summoning magic, that allows him to bring in reinforcements like Phantoms, Elementals and a Phoenix; this is basically the same trait than the Necro skill in a): it's supporting the army by adding quantity. Here the primary trait spell power helps and makes sure the quantities are high.
d) He supports his army with Dark magic by weakening the opposition, which fits in with the second primary defense well.
e) the hero himself, by his high spell power, is a Light Artillery unit himself, if getting a destructive spell.

Since points a to d all work together in a certain way I'd characterize the hero as: Heavy Support: Attrition as his primary trait. What is listed under e) qualifies him as Light Artillery as his secondary trait as well.

So this Necro for me then:

Hero: Heavy Support: Attrition/Light Artillery
Skelly Archers: Heavy Artillery
Zombies: Light Hunter-Killer; add to Attrition
Spectres: Armored Light Hunter
Vampires: Armored Light Killer
Liches: Medium Assault Artillery/Support (Attrition)
Wraiths: Medium Killer; add to Attrition
Dragons: Medium Killer; add to Attrition

[Mytical]

A lot more clearer and a little less confusing (for me). Since you can use multiple deffinitions this also helps contain future confusion. I would rate this system a 8 out of 10 . Very helpful and useful. There are some things I would like to add (I will give Banedon credit for these though). Finesse. I think this classification needs considered as well. For instance Paladins. It is always in the best interest of the hero to use their jousting ability, so they should be finessed into position to do the most possible damage. While they would be heavy support (lay on hands) killers, I think they could also be considered Finesse Heavy Support Killers.

[Jolly Joker]

Sylvan classification:

The racial special of the Ranger gives each unit a certain chance to deal double damage against up to three special targets. Double damage would be the equivalent of +20 attack (roughly) which I will transform for the sake of the classification here into an ability to "perform one classification level higher against up to three targets". For the classification this means that the hero will on average make 2 units perform better than its actual classification (i.e. a light killer may perform like a medium killer and so on). This includes the hero, but here the chance is a certainty, so the "Light Assault Artillery" trait becomes a Medium Assault Artillery trait for those targets that are on the **** list

Heroes abilities:
a) He is Light Assault Artillery, due to a combination of the racial skill's abilities with Destructive magic.
b) He gives his units a chance against certain targets to perform a level higher (favored enemy). For the units this is an incentive to attack the favored enemy targets. Now add the fact that a Ranger without the Luck skill is no Ranger and the chances of doing double damage somehow are pretty cool.
c) If the unit performs normally, the high defense primary of the hero helps mellowing the retaliation.
d) High Knowledge supports extended casting which is good for Destructive and Light Assault Artillery classification plus
e) All those Light Magic (mass) spells will greatly enhance the attack power of Sylvan units.
This makes the Sylcan hero:

Ranger: Support: Heavy Attack/Light Assault Artillery

Units:
Sprites: Light Assault Hunter/Support (Anti-Attrition, Attack)
War Dancers: Light Assault Killer
Hunters: Artillery/Support (Attack)
Druids: Artillery/Light Assault Artillery/Support (Attack)
Unicorns: Medium Killer/Support (Attack)
Treants:: Heavy Hunter-Killer
Dragons: Heavy Assault Killer

[Jolly Joker]

First I'm going to answer your last post from Banedon's thread, Mytical.

For Sylvan, as said, if you play the Sylvans right the ACTUAL classifications in any battle will translate to something like two random units performing actually one classification higher. I indeed took some time to decide the Master Hunters, but in the end I think they qualify only for Medium Artillery. The reason for this is, that IF they perform better it's mostly due to the doubling of one shot. Since they have to shots, they will regularly have one of their shots doubled, so the probability of the Hunters being one of the units that performs one level higher is the highest for the Sylvan creatures; for me this is enough of a classification. You COULD promote Hunters to Heavy Artillery thereby concentrating the favored enemy effect solely and fully on them, but that would be too misleading because I don't want to suppress the fact that the Emerald Dragons have a good chance to perform as a super-heavy right at the beginning - on two targets at the same time. Keeping this in mind - a unit may perform one level above their class and throughout a battle it will be as if two units had done it for the whole time (hero included) makes the threat much more vague and uncalculable which is how the Sylvans are, after all. You might get steamrollered and be half-dead before you know what hit you.

Now for Pixies and Dancer. It may mean a whole new world of playing for you, but Pixies, I'm delighted to tell you, have the no-retaliation trait as well. In fact they do only slightly less damage (they have the spray attack as well), one HP less and an initiative of 12 only (instead of 14) which is their biggest setback, but I find they suffice in the beginning. I'm not that much in a hurry to grade them up.

I think you are severely underrating the War Dancers. Ok, the Blades are very mediocre, but the War Dancers are the same kind of pain as the Furies due to their Initiative of 15 and the fact that you get nearly double as much Dancers as Furies. I think that the War Dance Combo is one of the most annoying specials if they have an opportunity to use it, because they tend to do a lot of extra damage. That happens on retaliation as well and since they can pick the target that will retaliate, when they attack, you can safely say that they are small hydras with a very high initiative, even though they are not very durable. If you leave them untouched when you have a chance to hurt them, they will be very annoying indeed: you know what I mean: "War Dancers hit favored enemy with Luck".

[Mytical]

Doh I bet I was thinking about conflux *sighs* (dang my chaotic mind). Yes that changes things a bit. I would have to redo my clasification. Thanks for that JJ. (One day my chaotic mind might not get me in deep hehe). As for dancers, even their double growth and multi creature hit does not really help them. When they hit, they get retaliated against. This causes them to loose more overall then the furies does, and more then makes up for the growth too (imo). Sure I use them, sure I attack with them, but to me they just eat up retals and soak up casulaties that other more useful creatures would have taken instead. Compaired to any other sylvan unit (even sprites) they are just not so useful to me. Now true, with luck (like you I see it as a must for a ranger) they do upgrade to support, but I just can not classify them as even light killers (maybe just biasedness talking).

[Jolly Joker]

Okay, about finesse.

I'm not at all happy with this classification because if you think about it, most units have something that their handling make the finesse: Ghosts/Spectres, Vampires, Liches, Wraiths, Sprites, Dancers, Druids, Unicorns, even the Dragons, even the Treants, all have something you could call "finesse".
I think Banedon took this initially as a characterization for units that have a high damage potential but require a certain "finesse" to realize it. While there certainly are such units I think that has to do more with playing abilities than unit character.

[Gaidal Cain]

JJ- would you mind presenting Academy next? It has a couple of units I'd be interested in seing your classification of, since I think they might be pathological examples of the system.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm going to put in Haven next, since that is more or less presentable.

Academy would be the last to present, normally, because of the Hero effect. I wonder, what Academy trait is giving you a headache. I don't see any because ONE hero trait is obviously the ability to be able to alter the classification of a unit, since the hero can influence more unit statistics than any other hero without having to use spells for it - within certain limits of course, which makes things not so complicated as one might think. Since resources are limited you cannot do everything you like in terms of artifacts.
For the main functions of the hero at this point I see the same variability. The hero can reduce the effectiveness of other heroes (Magic Mirror, Counterspell), for example reduce Heavy Attrition of the Necro to Medium, while can more or less pick traits because of the bigger mage guild, albeit a Wizard won't be Heavy in any category.
Basically I have to find a way to quantify it.

[Elvin]

Maybe you could add the term blocker. Some creatures as gargoyles or wardancers work better this way(tackling ranged units) rather than stealing retaliations or being light killers or whatever.
Have to read your topic some time but for now it's a bit too much for me!

[Jolly Joker]

That's the hunters.

[Elvin]

I mean in the forcing melee kind of way.

[Jolly Joker]

Well, yes, that's hunters. Since each killer can be used as a hunter as well (and the prerequisites are lower for that), there are only light hunters (medium hunters are light killers as well).

[Elvin]

I'm sorry I got confused. I thought you meant the sylvan hunters I said I haven't read much of the topic!

[Gaidal Cain]

Academy would be the last to present, normally, because of the Hero effect. I wonder, what Academy trait is giving you a headache.

Not so much a headache as a chance to test how well the classifications work (and no, it's not about Artificer or March of the Golems, even if those would alter the classifications of the units).

[Banedon]

@Vampires - I certainly think Vampire Lords can kill medium units, even if it takes them time to do so. If you look at your definitions

Light means it can effectively operate only against other light units.
Medium means that it can handle its job against every caliber of unit, but will not be able to do more than attrition damage against the heaviest

Vampire Lords can operate effectively against non-light units. They can also do their job against every unit, but not do more than attrition damage against the heaviest. They are medium killers, nothing less.

@Spectral Dragons / Wraiths - Putting these as medium is certainly unfair in my opinion. What is Necropolis going to use to kill the other side's level 7s then? The Skeleton Archer stack alone isn't going to be enough.

@Druid Elders - They can't be light. They can operate effectively against medium units as well.

I think you are severely underrating the War Dancers. Ok, the Blades are very mediocre, but the War Dancers are the same kind of pain as the Furies due to their Initiative of 15 and the fact that you get nearly double as much Dancers as Furies. I think that the War Dance Combo is one of the most annoying specials if they have an opportunity to use it, because they tend to do a lot of extra damage. That happens on retaliation as well and since they can pick the target that will retaliate, when they attack, you can safely say that they are small hydras with a very high initiative, even though they are not very durable. If you leave them untouched when you have a chance to hurt them, they will be very annoying indeed: you know what I mean: "War Dancers hit favored enemy with Luck".

Though they can pick the unit they'll get retaliated against, it does not mean they're small Hydras - very often of the time every unit will retaliate strongly against them. The other problem is, if you don't use War Dancers to absorb retaliation, who are you going to use? You can't use Sprites because they can't take retaliations in the first place, you can't use Master Hunters because you would be incredibly foolish to do so, you can't use Druid Elders for the same reason and you won't be getting Silver Unicorns for a long while.

Maybe it's because I throw War Dancers away early to clear my mines that I find them relatively weak. But then the alternative was not to take the mines in the first place.

@Master Hunters - I would be quite surprised if Sylvan elects to take the offensive and attack any race except possibly Academy. What does that mean? It must mean that Sylvan has some awesome ranged firepower, and that resides with the Master Hunters and Druid Elders. If Druid Elders are light then Master Hunters must be heavy - or else there's no reason why Sylvan shouldn't charge.

[Jolly Joker]

Well.
For the Sylvans, as I explained there IS NO reason they shouldn't charge in an all-out battle.
Still the Druid Elders are Medium Artillery and Light Assault Artillerie (the Stone Spikes spell).
For the War Dancers, well. Due to the 10 Wood the upgrade cost they take a long time coming. Blade Dancers are certainly Light Hunters only.
About the Vampire Lords, I still disagree. Sure, they look good against neutrals. But in any serious battle against another army, led by another hero they just don't do enough damage for a medium killer. Speaking of them, naming Wraiths and Dragons medium killers only has nothing to do with being fair. I didn't make their stats.
Keep in mind that the Necro has nothing in the way of additional attack stats. A medium killer unit will blow the vamps away, if they are on their own or if both units are led by a hero.
The problem with all those units is that you have to draw a line somwehere.
The trouble is the low damage, because the damage is seential for their generation as well. While they will kill lots of other light killers with that (in longer attrition battles, mind you) they do it because of what makes them armored, not because of what makes them killer.

[Banedon]

Surely Sylvan has to be charged and should not charge. I don't see where you explained your thoughts, I'm afraid. Is it in this thread?

@War Dancers - So in the meantime you have to throw Blade Dancers away, and you'll never accumulate a significant force of them late-game. That perhaps is why I rate them thus.

@Vampire Lords - They don't deal enough damage because they don't attack the weaker units. By virtue of their unretaliated attack I think most / all Necropolis players get the Vampire Lords to hit the killer units on the battlefield (Paladins, Black Dragons, etc). Sure they don't deal enough damage, but they can deal attrition damage and hold their own against other medium creatures.

@Spectral Dragons / Wraiths - If you hold to your classification, how will Necropolis deal with a stack of 10 Archangels led by a Knight who prioritizes the Skeleton Archers (and destroys them all, not that impossible unless there's a really gargantuan stack of Skeletons)? I cannot agree that Necropolis has only one killer unit. The Wraiths and Spectral Dragons must deal with heavy creatures where necessary, and they themselves are heavy creatures. Would you use Silver Unicorns to kill Spectral Dragons?

[Jolly Joker]

The thoughts about Sylvans are in your thread, last page. Why, for example should you wait -say, against Dungeon - until they blow away the Hunters with a nice Implosion? The only waiting army is Necro, imo.

Necro is Attrition. I might add an "Armored" status to Spectrals, though. That seems in order. A problem with the definition is, that a killer is a killer because of the fact that it can kill. Now, the Spectrals are no Heavy Killers because they cannot kill. They are solid, granted. But they aren't all that strong. They are no Heavy Killers, not compared to other units.
They can stand a punch, though. It's Necro: the only unit that can really kill are the skeletons, at least in a real battle with normal non-campaign heroes.

[Shauku]

But what about Wraith? It does the most damage on its level (not counting Jousting bonus), and has a killing ability against high tier units as well. Doesn't that classify as Heavy Killer? They can kill creatures effectively on any level 1-7

Sure their damage drops against a high level Knight or Ranger, but those are the exceptions. Otherwise they do solid damage, right?