Neutrals' mood coefficient, and is diplomacy worthwhile?

[LoneChinchilla]

How is the creature "mood" determined? Is this like the "courage"--something set in the map?

And, regardless of the answer to that...Is diplomacy worth much?

For agressive neutrals, it looks to me like diplomacy (on average) allows your army to be 20% smaller before you enter the category of having a *chance* of getting joiners for money, if you have diplomacy as compared to not. And your army can also be 20% smaller before you have a *chance* of getting free joiners. So, there are two windows, one where your army strength is (on average) 2.8-3.5 times the neutrals' strength, and another where your army strength is 5.2-6.5 times the neutrals' strength, where diplomacy bumps you up to the higher category. It seems like those are pretty narrow windows for this to make much difference.

Once you cross those hurdles, diplomacy gives you a 10% larger chance of actually getting joiners. And for the intermediate window (might join for money), the cost for joining is reduced.

So, I guess if I'm picking lots of fights with neutrals more than ~3x weaker than me, diplomacy triggers 10% of the time, with a cost bonus too provided I'm not too strong.

Does this sound useful? I'm not sure.

[myythryyn]

i myself never take diplomacy with my heroes anymore.

i did when i first played HOMM V, because i remember how good the skill was in HOMM III. getting bonus troops was always a good thing.

but in HOMM V, they must have really lowered the percent chance.
i find i get just as many offers to join my hero without diplomacy and a large army then if i had diplomacy.

i really never saw a remarkable increase in the amount of neutrals that joined me when i had diplomacy in HOMM V.
it just seems a wasted skill pick for whatever low percentage chance it has.

[Jolly Joker]

It's only an ability, it isn't meant to win you the game instantly. If you think about it, if you play a medium game, let's say as Haven, if you get a pack of Griffins to join and several Paladins it already was worth the while, wasn't it? Estates on the other hand will bring you 1750 gold a week or 7000 gold a month. Recruitment brings an additional 12, 8 and 4 creatures of levels 1, 2 and 3, respectively, which would be creatures worth something like 1500-2000 a month that you will have to buy while the hero must be in town on day 7. Now compare both of this with getting a join of several Paladins sometime in the game and a month later a pack of Imperial Griffins and it makes sense.
Do you really expect the ability to get you a join every second neutral stack or so?

[Gaidal Cain]

I agree that it's probably good if the skill only gives you one or two extra stacks through the game. The problem is that with so few stacks, it's hard to tell if it has made any difference, as it's a silent effect - you never get a message about it being the diplomacy that allowed them to join.

Comparing with the other two Leadership abilities does help it though; along with Enlightenment's, they're the weakest ones in the game, even if they're the closest in terms of how they can be quantified. Since one really only needs to pick up two abilities to get the advanced one(s), the third slot can just as well be used for diplomacy if one wants to wrap the whole skill family up.

[okrane]

I would of liked it better if it worked like in heroes 4... a small percentage of the army would join you for some money... that would have been better...

[LoneChinchilla]

Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone.

And, does anyone know how the mood is determined (friendly, aggressive, etc.?)

[sezerp]

Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone.

And, does anyone know how the mood is determined (friendly, aggressive, etc.?)

AFAIK this is defined during creation of scenario, in map editor.

[ThunderTitan]

It's only an ability, it isn't meant to win you the game instantly.

But it musn't be useless unless you play for a good few hours either. It would work better if it just decresed the price of them joining you and upped the % of them joining by more then it does now.

[LoneChinchilla]

Here's a way to get an idea of how useful diplomacy is.

You can ask how often you get joiners without diplomacy, and then scale that number up. If we have passed the 1st role (regarding army strengths) we now have a chance at joiners, determined by a 2nd role. With agressive neutrals of random faction and no diplomacy, you have a 5% + 5%/2 (same alignment) + 5%/6 (same faction) + other small bonuses. So, you get about an 8% chance of winning on this second role, averaged over all types of creatures you'll fight. Diplomacy adds 10% to this.

Punchline: diplomacy will give you about twice as many joiners in a given game as you would get without it, assuming you haven't adjusted your playing style any and that you're fighting aggressive neutrals. So, ask yourself how often you get joiners, then ask whether it's worth spending an ability slot to get twice that many.

Of course, there are a few other points which make diplomacy more worthwhile:
1. Paid joiners are 2/3 the price.
2. Diplomacy improves your chances of winning on the 1st role too, but this gives a small net effect since you then must pass the 2nd role also.
3. You can always adjust your playing style and try to wait before fight some neutrals, especially those aligned with your faction, later in the game when you are stronger and have a better chance of passing the 1st role.
4. Morale and Luck also help modestly with the first role.

[Caradoc]

Can someone explain the odds when Scouting says the neutral is 'unpredictable'? And also the other possibilities, if you can?

Second, what determines whether they join for gold or for 'greater glory'? Many's the time I've blown my building budget when I didn't notice they wanted gold to join.

[LoneChinchilla]

Cardoc,

Are you talking about the scouting or the silent stalker ability? Either way, could you write down the various descriptions you've seen? (According to the manual, silent stalker allows you to see the neutrals' courage, which is either 1. always fight, 2. always join, or 3. could do either. There's nothing in the manual about "unpredictable")

Another question for you. It sounds from your message like creatures will offer to join for cash, even if you don't actually have the cash to pay them. Is this true?

And, to maybe answer one of your questions, the manual says that there are two thresholds you can pass. Where you are related to those thresholds depends on the relative army strengths as well as a random number role. (This is the "1st role" I referred to earlier.) If you cross the first threshold only, they will either fight or join for money. If you also cross the second threshold, they will either flee or join for free.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

Cardoc,

Are you talking about the scouting or the silent stalker ability? Either way, could you write down the various descriptions you've seen? (According to the manual, silent stalker allows you to see the neutrals' courage, which is either 1. always fight, 2. always join, or 3. could do either. There's nothing in the manual about "unpredictable")

Silent Stalker gives the message on each stack's courage as "will join", "will fight" or "unpredictable"

[Caradoc]

Thanks QD, I meant Silent Stalker.

To address the original question, yes, it is sometimes very rewarding to pursue a diplomatic strategy. With Leadership to boost morale, you can overcome the penalties for carrying armies outside your faction. And when you succeed, it's like getting a free month's worth of creatures.

Naturally, you are going to want to maximize all the modifiers -- big army, same alignment, matching creatures, high morale/luck. You also need to plan your campaign so that you do not attack prematurely. Wait till your odds are good.

For nonaligned creatures, make sure you have a use for them. You'd like to get more than one stack, since you don't have a way to generate more.

I did very well using a Sylvan and Haven hero traveling together. Both had Diplomacy, so I was able to shift armies around so that I had the best chance for either one. I never did find a Haven, but the Knight eventually developed into a good secondary hero with a decent Haven army.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

For nonaligned creatures, make sure you have a use for them. You'd like to get more than one stack, since you don't have a way to generate more.

Unless you are dungeon or inferno - then you can sacrifice for experience or creature growth. Who needs multiple stacks?

[aulfgar]

I have had to many games ruined by diplomacy in HoMM5 for me to take it anymore. Even without Diplomancy I have ended up with say a high level Necro getting a stack of 60 Ancient Treants joining him... which gave me such a huge advantage that it was silly.

My point is that I don't like that the stacks that join are usually late game and tend to be of 5-7 critters... 'cause all the smaller critters have been eaten.

[PhoenixReborn]

I hate to flog a dead horse...but if anyone has a screenshot handy that might be nice. I have never once seen a neutral offer to join for money in Heroes V. I've seen it in the previous games but in V it's always join for free.

I do like diplomacy...as Aulfgar points out it can give you an advantage...like when I doubled my number of vamps.

[Caradoc]

aulfgar, isn't e^(pi*i) -1 really -2 ?

[Rainalkar]

Usefulness of Diplomacy depends mostly on the map. If I knew that all creatures moods were set to wild I would naturaly never take it. Most of the maps however determine mood randomly (which was never a possibility far mapmaking in H3 were Diplomacy was ridicilous). Personaly, Diplomacy can give you sort of an edge there and than: especialy if the map contains a lot of neutrals of your faction, but it happens rather rearly and numbers joined are never so huge to be gamebreaking. However, Diplomacy proved criticical in my play of Haven campaign in H5, take a look here:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.p ... genumber=6

I would rather have Diplomacy stay as it is than to risk to see the horrors of H3 again, where NOT taking Diplomacy (if the map allowed joining) was considered crazy playing.

[aulfgar]

aulfgar, isn't e^(pi*i) -1 really -2 ?

Yep Yay for a mathematical person.