I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Banedon]

It shows you've run completely out of counters to my 'Blood Fury = Finesse' arguments and are forced to rely on scraps like this one.

I'd start learning Enlightenment somewhere past level 15. So I can still be higher level if we engage at level 20 (for you; 21 for me). Or something like that. The level advantage may not be there, but then again it may.

[DaemianLucifer]

It shows you've run completely out of counters to my 'Blood Fury = Finesse' arguments and are forced to rely on scraps like this one.

Nope,I have arguments,but like I said,untill you learn to read,I wont pursue that debate.

I'd start learning Enlightenment somewhere past level 15. So I can still be higher level if we engage at level 20 (for you; 21 for me). Or something like that. The level advantage may not be there, but then again it may.

If you start taking enlightment at level 15,and up it through levels 16 and 17 youll get extra 6144xp,while you need 15988xp to get from level 20 to level 21,so no,you probably wont be a higher level then me.

And you still didnt answer the inconsistency up there.Is enlightment a must skill,or is it a best "last" skill?

[Banedon]

Hahaha. You got wiped so badly that you must resort to means like this to continue the debate. If you really mean what you say then repeat where I didn't read properly. I've addressed everything; only you say I haven't. But anyway. Let's change directions and do this: we start a new topic where this...debate...becomes a formal one. We'll each have three posts, and at the end of it we let the public adjuncate. OK with that?

As for your mathematics, it's in error because you don't fight me at level 20 with precisely 0 experience. What if you fight me with 10,000 experience, when my extra 6144 gives me a new level?

And there is no inconsistency up there. Enlightenment is both. Something wrong with that?

[DaemianLucifer]

Hahaha. You got wiped so badly that you must resort to means like this to continue the debate. If you really mean what you say then repeat where I didn't read properly. I've addressed everything; only you say I haven't.

No,you didnt.Just go back to the list,for example.You disputed it yourself,so in a sense you did win.But against yourself.

As for your mathematics, it's in error because you don't fight me at level 20 with precisely 0 experience. What if you fight me with 10,000 experience, when my extra 6144 gives me a new level?

66% that you wont be a higher level,33% that you will.Nothings wrong with that math.

And there is no inconsistency up there. Enlightenment is both. Something wrong with that?

So you are saying that its a must?Fine,its your oppinion.I dont share it.

But anyway. Let's change directions and do this: we start a new topic where this...debate...becomes a formal one. We'll each have three posts, and at the end of it we let the public adjuncate. OK with that?

Still pushing it?Considering your debate about RPG,and this one,I really doubt that youd stop at third post.

[Banedon]

We will make it formal. The debate will be judged by a neutral observer and follow the specific format of opening - rebuttal - conclusion. Each side has only three posts; if you miss anything too bad for you.

Deal or no deal?

[DaemianLucifer]

Depends on what you want to discuss in the first place.I remember your last "formal" poll,in which you countered everyones oppinion,even though the question was quite simple one and didnt require you to attend.

[Banedon]

The debate topic:

Blood Furies are killers.

For: Me.
Against: You.

The 'For' side speaks first. He may make one post and no more than one post. The 'Against' side goes next. He may make one post and no more than one post. For goes again, Against goes twice in a row and finally For concludes the debate.

After the 6 posts the debate ends, the judges adjucate and the topic can be locked. This debate will not be created in a poll. It will simply be a debate.

[DaemianLucifer]

See,that might work if not for a small error on your side:You think that your definition of a killer is the only definition.I already presented to you that your classification is initially wrong(nowhere to classify hydras).

Furthermore,shouldnt that be the other way round?I thought I was the one advocating them as killers,so its me whos for,right?

Plus,such a debate will never reach a conclusion.Ive spotted people that support both sides here,so the debate will only continue after those 6 posts,the only difference will be that it wont be you against me.

Think of something better and I may reconsider.

[Banedon]

Yes I got it wrong and it should be the other way round. Inconsequential. For definition of killer I'll either think up something or else we agree to use an intuitive calculation, with both sides free to sway opinion to their particular interpretation.

And though such a debate will never reach a conclusion, we force it to reach a conclusion. The moment both sides have their three posts a moderator locks the topic, the judges deliberate on it and post their conclusions, and the debate ends. The topic stays locked for eternity.

Deal or no deal?

[DaemianLucifer]

No.Like I said,nothing will be gained by that.People have their oppinions,and you wont ever change that.Some believe furries are killers,and you have to accept it.I accept that some find them less useful,and the only reason I draged this for so long is because I love teasing people,and wasting their time Oh,and you deserve a present for your efforts,so pick it up here.

[Banedon]

If that is what you really wanted you should not have attempted to force me to adopt the 'Blood Furies as killer' argument at the start. I was prepared to let you hold your own views but as you argued and argued and then called all sorts of question upon my ability it became something else.

If you do not want a debate, OK, and I claim victory. In time to come, this topic may revert back to its original purpose.

[Pol]

** **
I don't think that it was unproductive discussion, just a little long for my taste. Fact that DL wasn't always serious is ok with me. People using it to unfroze the discussion when is stick at dead point because someone is not getting theirs arguments. It's one of communication strategies and learning the art of communication is hard.

What we may say is fact, that this one wasn't too productive either. Now it's stopped. From my point I would never go to discuss one fragment against other in so undefined enviroment. It cannot bring anything.

Cheer up. Both. (However no one won - stale mate.)

PS Both includes you too Banedon, it may learn you to formulate your ideas shorter, regarding quantum of others and saving your forces where it have sense. That's real life saver

[Elvin]

@Banedon
I understand your frustration and the fact that you wasted so much of your time but you should understand that you gave him the right to go on. After some point you should have realised that there is little to be gained and that he continues just for fun. And most of the trouble over what? If the fury is a killer or a finesse killer?
Good thing you at least learnt some things while at this.

[Jolly Joker]

Actually I thought a bit about this classification stuff and I wonder. Is it even appropriate? I mean, the only time you see a unit "raw" is when they come as a neutral stack. Are there killers? No, not really. You can deal with everything when you have the right combination of troops and hero abilities.
Consider the Grim Raider/Blood Fury combination. Storm up with the Raiders and hit a target. Since the target defence will be zero, they'll deal massive damage, ideally killing the target and being adjacent to another one at the same time. Blood Furies storm up and hit the second target. Lizards bite for good measure. Furies get morale bonus and do it again. Same procedure. KILLER stuff. However, not primitive, but subtle.
I remember a Nival designer saying during the beta that Dungeon was supposed to win through a combination of sheer magic destructive Power combined with tactical attack finesse on the battlefield (that's when Elemental Chains worked a bit different still).
I think, they did succeed with that. Dungeon is sheer fun to play.
That said, I think that it depends on what the hero is able to do whether units are killers or not. For example, in an end fight, with TA the Hydras are brutal killers. Suddenly it's their turn, and since the Dungeon player tends to have a lot and since there are more pressing targets at start they will hit hard and unexpectedly. On its own, however, they are easy meat.

[Elvin]

I loved the function the elemental chains had back then. Dungeon is still fun but I wish the chains were a bit more complex.

[Jolly Joker]

Haven:

Peasants: Cannon Fodder.
Marksmen: Killer units.
Squires: Cannon Fodder.
Imperial Griffins: Finesse.
Inquistors: Supporter.
Champions: Killer units.
Archangels: Supporter, Finesse, Killer.

Inferno:

Familiars: Cannon Fodder.
Overseers: Cannon Fodder.
Cerberi: Killer.
Succubus Mistress: Killer.
Nightmares: Finesse.
Pit Lords: Killer / Supporter.
Archdevils: Killer.

Sylvan:

Sprites: Finesse.
War Dancers: Finesse.
Master Hunters: Killer.
Druid Elders: Killer.
Silver Unicorns: Finesse.
Treants: Cannon Fodder.
Emerald Dragons: Finesse.

Necropolis:

Skeleton Archers: Killer.
Plague Zombies: Cannon Fodder.
Spectres: Cannon Fodder.
Vampire Lords: Finesse, Killer.
Archliches: Killer.
Wraiths: Cannon Fodder, Killer.
Spectral Dragons: Killer.

Dungeon:

Assassins: Supporter.
Blood Furies: Finesse.
Minotaurs: Cannon Fodder (they're never going to get close enough to land good hits).
Grim Raiders: Finesse (a bit too low on Damage / HP to be true killers)
Deep Hydras: Canno Fodder (can't be a killer without powerful supporting magics)
Shadow Matriaches: Supporter (killer is debatable; Shadow Matriaches deal relatively low damage).
Black Dragons: Killer.

So, Banedon, is that still your unit assessment or would you like to change any of your classifications? Furthermore, would you like to add something for the Dwarven faction?
Because I'd like to comment a bit on that, if you don't mind.
And a question. The classification: is that meant to be valid throughout the game or only at the end and in the context of a full blown army consisting of all troop types of a town?

[Banedon]

I remember a Nival designer saying during the beta that Dungeon was supposed to win through a combination of sheer magic destructive Power combined with tactical attack finesse on the battlefield (that's when Elemental Chains worked a bit different still).
I think, they did succeed with that. Dungeon is sheer fun to play.

If that's what Nival set out to do they succeeded quite well. I'll just say that Dungeon is sheer NOT fun to play I still don't like Dungeon. It's certainly the race I hate most right now.

Actually I thought a bit about this classification stuff and I wonder. Is it even appropriate? I mean, the only time you see a unit "raw" is when they come as a neutral stack. Are there killers? No, not really. You can deal with everything when you have the right combination of troops and hero abilities.
Consider the Grim Raider/Blood Fury combination. Storm up with the Raiders and hit a target. Since the target defence will be zero, they'll deal massive damage, ideally killing the target and being adjacent to another one at the same time. Blood Furies storm up and hit the second target. Lizards bite for good measure. Furies get morale bonus and do it again. Same procedure. KILLER stuff. However, not primitive, but subtle.

That's why somewhere in the working definition of 'finesse' we must include the capability to kill - if we don't, then there's not even a reason to have a finesse class, and we might as well do away with it altogether (a creature that can't kill = fodder). I agree with winterfate here. A finesse unit can kill, but it doesn't deal so sheer damage that the target dies at once. Also, a finesse unit cannot in general absorb damage, and they must stay untargetted or die.

In this case Grim Raiders generally don't deal enough damage to decimate a stack even with the target's defense being zero, and will therefore suffer a retaliation. That's not so bad since they have 60 HP, but I suspect a significant amount of them will still die before they get to move again, especially against Ranged neutrals who'll be getting in shots at full damage. Blood Furies are slightly different. Now keeping them alive (against another human player that is; against the AI it's the reverse) is the easy thing but you can't deal as much damage.

As for the classifications, well they stay mostly the same. I can add Academy now since I actually have some experience with them. Fortress however I can't - I don't have HoF yet.

So:

Haven
Peasants: Fodder
Marksmen: Killer
Squires: Fodder
Imperial Griffins: Finesse
Inquistors: Supporter
Paladins: Killer
Angels: Killer

Inferno
Familiars: Killer
Horned Overseers: Fodder
Cerberi: Finesse
Succubi Mistresses: Killer
Nightmares: Finesse
Pit Lords: Killer
Archdevils: Killer

Necropolis
Skeleton Archers: Killer
Plague Zombies: Fodder
Spectres: Fodder
Vampire Lords: Killer
Archliches: Finesse
Wraiths: Killer
Spectral Dragons: Killer

Sylvan
Sprites: Finesse
War Dancers: Finesse
Master Hunters: Killer
Druid Elders: Killer
Silver Unicorns: Finesse
Ancient Treants: Fodder
Emerald Dragons: Killer

Dungeon
Assassins: Supporter
Blood Furies: Finesse
Minotaur Guards: Fodder
Grim Raiders: Finesse
Deep Hydras: Unique - this is a difficult unit to classify
Shadow Matriaches: Supporter
Black Dragons: Killer

Academy
Master Gremlins: Fodder (only Ranged fodder unit )
Obsidian Gargoyles: Fodder
Steel Golems: Fodder
Archmagi: Killer
Djinn Sultans: Finesse
Rakshasha Raja: Killer
Titans: Killer

It's difficult to have a classification that holds throughout the game - after all, despite their 'finesse' status, Blood Furies are Dungeon's killer units early and Master Gremlins serve the same purpose for Academy. Very late into the game Archmagi aren't killers no more as well. I'm therefore assuming a reasonably late period but not too late, the exact time frame I don't know.

Despite some revisions in my thinking Dungeon's problems remain. Battlefield brawn may never have been their main strength, but the big deal I don't like is that Dungeon needs the hero to be effective early-game. The same applies to Academy but the Wizard certainly has a lot more spell points to deploy and won't have to return that often. I find Academy quite strong while Dungeon quite weak.

I stress this classification is probably imperfect, and is certainly biased in my opinions. Feel free to criticize it, but don't be too harsh please

[Jolly Joker]

Well, I'm not at all ready to march through to Dungeon. I'd like to simply start with Haven to show some problems, well maybe not problems, but classification difficulties:

Peasants: Fodder
Marksmen: Killer
Squires: Fodder
Imperial Griffins: Finesse
Inquistors: Supporter
Paladins: Killer
Angels: Killer

That's your classification. I agree, Paladins are killers. However, they have no importance against neutrals (they are mostly cleared when the come into play) and even if they had, they only have speed 8 and Init 12 and might suffer losses themselves without any help against dangerous shooters or casters. Still, later on they are killers because they are simply capable to deal death blows to each and any stack.
However, that said, I don't think (Arch)Angels are killers. I'd say they are supporter-killers because storming in with the Paladins and Griffins and Resurrecting the one who suffered most is, in my opinion, at least as valuable as their killing power, because even if they do nothing they repreent a threat because of their power to revive a laboriously killed stack.
Inquisitors are Supporters, I agree.
Griffins, I disagree again. For me Imperial Griffins are another killer unit. It's the unit of choice to kill all those pesky druids and stuff. The non-retaliated double damage battle dive brings unit damage up to 10-30 damage and combined with a Knight that simply and effectively KILLS. At any time. If they are away you cannot target them, so you can only guess as an opponent.
That leaves Squires.
Here I disagree again with the classification, because for me they are supporters. Footmen are meat shields or fodder, but Squires, due to their shielding of friendly units are supporters: they halve ranged damage for everything they shield. Combine that with the Knight's high defense and the Evasion ability and those Marksmen, even though they have such low initiative - won't suffer that much from opposing fire.
Militia is fodder, agreed (albeit it might be considered TRAINING fodder).
So we are with the Marksmen. If they are classified as killers they are not killers because of themselves. They have too low an initiative, so that basically every unit may get a move in before them. I don't see them play any role in battling neutrals either: against walkers they aren't needed (you don't have the resources for the upgrade anyway, so Archers are enough) and against the heftier shooters and casters they will suffer inevitable losses.
Since they are really dangerous ONLY in connection with other troops, their classification depends a bit on the definition. They certainly have a very low initiative. They have a bit from everything, right? Due to their low initiative they are fodder, but they are a bother to kill, and they CAN become very dangerous. It rather depends more on what the opponent does, how near the targets are and so on. Since all that sounds rather tactical I'd like to tentatively put in Finesse, but more due to the fact that a better classification is missing.

So for me this would be:
Militia: Fodder
Marksmen: Finesse, but needs closer inspection
Squire: Supporter
Imp Griffin: Killer
Inq: Supporter
Paladins: Killer
Archangels: Supporter-Killer

Edit: I'm inclined to put Marksmen into the supporter slot, after some more mulling about them.

[okrane]

@Necropolis
I would say Spectral Dragons: Fodder... just another word for useless

@Academy
Mages: Useless... support if anything....

[Panda Tar]

I stress this classification is probably imperfect, and is certainly biased in my opinions. Feel free to criticize it, but don't be too harsh please

I won't, as usual. *insert disturbed smile here*

Haven
Peasants: Fodder
Marksmen: Killer
Squires: Fodder
Imperial Griffins: Finesse
Inquistors: Supporter
Paladins: Killer
Angels: Killer

For my gameplay, I would classify like this (it works, btw, but you may prefer yours as well, since that's a general view, me thinks):
Peasants: same or supporter. I like taxpayment.
Marksmen: I stick with archers most than marksmen. Killer, maybe.
Squires: Supporter, for archers and inquisitors.
Imperial Griffins: finesse as long as their first turn. After that, I'd call them a mix of fodder and killer (under certain spells, that is, since they have such decent damage range for their level).
Inquisitors: killers. In fact, I move them towards battle as well, alongside squires. It's way much fun. Sometimes I forget about their supporting ability.
Paladins: same. Support for angels by healing them.
Angels: finesse - using them after paladins on the same target most of times. They support whichever unit that gets severely attacked.

Inferno
Familiars: Killer
Horned Overseers: Fodder
Cerberi: Finesse
Succubi Mistresses: Killer
Nightmares: Finesse
Pit Lords: Killer
Archdevils: Killer

I'm sympathetic with this inferno town. A lot more than H3.
Familiars: same (I'd say fodder, but they are good at high numbers and do good damage for a level 01 at all, doesn't they? Besides their speed and the annoyance of SP absorption).
Horned Overseers: Fodder and supporter, but I'd send them more to the middle of battle (after gating ).
Cerberi: same
Succubi Mistresses: same (a pity they're a nightmare if you have mixed troops)
Nightmares: Killer, ok, these guys I have to pity at sending to attack. They fearing attack and damage are good, besides their HP and defense. I really don't hold them, they get first attack most of times and may travel all the way into enemy's nest, making shooter to attack in a melee way, plus making enemies to move toward it. So, other units like cerberi and Archdevil can reach their targets faster for a strong strike.
Pit Lords: killer, and I quickly haste them to go in melee fight. At the very beginning of the game, their spells may do decent crisis on enemies...oh, in a siege, I use their spells to destroy warmachines.
Archdevils: same. Their ability to raise pit fiends is good enough when your nightmares become nothing but a distant dream.

Necropolis
Skeleton Archers: Killer
Plague Zombies: Fodder
Spectres: Fodder
Vampire Lords: Killer
Archliches: Finesse
Wraiths: Killer
Spectral Dragons: Killer

Skeleton Archers: same. They keep gathering.
Plague Zombies: same. They must plague everything as long as they're zombying about.
Spectres: same. Their "I miss you" ability is quite useful.
Vampire Lords: same
Archliches: I'd say killer, instead. With a good point for Decay spell. In later games they may not be the same, but in late games, most of the things are not the same anyway. You can't even have much of the fun you could have on other games.
Wraiths: killer, but I don't like spending them so fast. I could even call them finesse.
Spectral Dragons: for me they're fodder all the way.

Sylvan
Sprites: Finesse
War Dancers: Finesse
Master Hunters: Killer
Druid Elders: Killer
Silver Unicorns: Finesse
Ancient Treants: Fodder
Emerald Dragons: Killer

Hum, these ones cannot be much different at all, as they have very strong unique features. I change only War dancers and Unicorns. War dancers, I throw them as a fodder, assisted by Silver Unicorn killing horn. I stick with their finesse stance just under very strict circumstances.

Dungeon
Assassins: Supporter
Blood Furies: Finesse
Minotaur Guards: Fodder
Grim Raiders: Finesse
Deep Hydras: Unique - this is a difficult unit to classify
Shadow Matriaches: Supporter
Black Dragons: Killer

Assassins: supporter after poisoning each foe. Then, they become fodder (I throw them into battle for melee attack to save shots and to block other shooters or path against large units). Poison has healed? Poison again by shooting.
Blood furies: finesse. They are good at attacking but the enemy army will even throw a butterfly against them if they have the chance. They are not immortal, but may be killers if kept out of reach.
Minotaur guards: supporter. I just keep them next to blood furies and Shadow chicks to greatly weaken the upcoming foe. As I don't use them as fodder, they gather more in numbers and their defensive stance helps to kill more enemies that gets next to them. I think that's much better.
Grim Raider: killer - I'd change them for Black dragons, even if they're not that strong to last long in battle, but using their lizard attack while dragons are burning other stacks might be also effective.
Deep Hydra: killer - strong enough to last long, they may go to and fro, blocking paths, killing multiple stacks and need not to move too much. Hastening them also gives a help. They are slow enough to be supporting units, but they'll kill all the same.
Shadow chicks: same. I don't really like them in any way, but visual.
Black Dragons: finesse, combined with Grim Raider as aforementioned. Saving the big lizards. Level 7 units are not as immortal as they were, imho (read azure dragon, titan, etc, etc, etc).

Academy
Master Gremlins: Fodder (only Ranged fodder unit )
Obsidian Gargoyles: Fodder
Steel Golems: Fodder
Archmagi: Killer
Djinn Sultans: Finesse
Rakshasha Raja: Killer
Titans: Killer

Gremlins or master: I barely have classification for them. I think I stick with fodder as well. Not strong to be killer, targeted all the time too, not good at melee. Ok, crappy fodder.
Obsidian G: same
Steel Golems: supporter to all upcoming units that gets next to titans or crappy fodders. I leave Archmagi alone with their "I don't care" shoot.
Archmagi: killer against masses. Good magic damage early on. BUT, become rather useless later on (dying killer), with not enough shoots, not endless SP (which won't do good damage at all), horrendous melee abilities. Must have many supporting abilities-features to keep going.
Djinn Sultans: same. Targeted like hell, I just attack with them after retaliation or when I know it'll be a deadly blow. Supporting spells will do meanwhile.
*taking a deep breath*
Rackoolala 'n Nasa: killer. I think this unit almost unbeatable sometimes. With those artifacts giving them speed, iniative and luck/damage, and their Dash active, well, you may tell.
Titans: killing presence. Always good, always titanic, even when it's sinking, or well, falling.

I have no HoF yet. So, cannot give any details. I like the dwarf on the bear, though. Reminds of a brown panda (with pushing ability, panda = pushing ability).