I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[DaemianLucifer]

Well it's only one, and I don't view it as a fair trade. It's a level 6 for level 3 after all, and it marks Shadow Matriaches as mediocre. They can take out large chunks of Master Hunters simply because they're level 6 units. The point is, Dungeon's one of the races with weak Ranged fire.

The point is that,unlike in previous games,higher tier does not equal more usefull unit.Take necro for example.

I have lost sight of how this point is relevant to the main part of the debate however. How?

Ask GC,he pulled that one.

But what's that got to do with the question? Intelligence is still going to help the Warlock.

Again:Help-yes.Necesarry-no.

You should drag in luck. It goes both ways, so what? You're much more likely to remember losing 10 Blood Furies to a stroke of misfortune than to win 4 consecutive battles with luck on your side. Fireball and Circle of Winter are relatively high-level spells and you won't have them. Deploying only Minotaurs? #1 It costs gold to hire Minotaurs and #2 it costs spell points.

Yes,so?We are talking about battles where you must loose something,arent we?Of course youll have some loses.The trick is to minimize them.

See, if trading a level 6 unit's action for a level 3's a fine idea, why can't you trade a level 7 unit's action to kill the level 2's that are supposedly one of your opponent's most dangerous killers? After all, why would Titans in an Academy force aim at Marksmen? It's a waste, right?

Again,higher tier doesnt equal more usefull unit.You forgot to factor in attack,defense,damage,range penalty,etc.Now,if those matriarchs had 31 attack,50-50 damage and no range penalty,then it would be an overkill to strike hunters with them.But they dont.They have 20 attack,17-27 damage and do half damage to targets on the other side of the BF.

The War Dancers aren't going to relinquish their position beside the Master Hunters. It's too dangerous. What happens if the unit your Imperial Griffins BattleDived was the Silver Unicorns instead? Then the Paladins charge them and they all die, then the Archangels break the barricade. Not good. Position on the bar? For some reason or another I've found my Emerald Dragons to be able to wait and still act before the Ancient Treants. They still have initiative 7 after waiting after all.

What if the unicorns survive?And again,that has nothing to do with the griffins landing space.They could still block the trants.And it could also happen that you need to wait twice with the emeralds for the griffins to dive.

You prefer to kill 100 Skeleton Archers and then have the Blood Furies retreat? If there are a grand total of 1000 Skeleton Archers, do you expect to kill them all so quickly?

Ah,I always forget that exception.Ok,skel archers are something different,you cant kill them fast.

In a A->B statement, if the preliminary condition is false, the statement is always true. This is a statement of mathematical logic. A->B is fully equivalent to ~B->~A. In the second form ~B is true, so ~A is also true. The way I see it, you're refusing to accept impeccable logic.

No,thats not the logic Im saying is wrong.Its your "doesnt happen thus the whole thing is invalid" "logic".Oh,wait,...you just negated it.Inconsistency?

If you're comparing just 1 of each unit, you'll have to mark Assassins as killers and Skeleton Archers as fodder. Obviously that doesn't make sense. Why not? I'll tell you why: you neglected their numbers. Blood Furies reproduce at 10 per week. If they reproduced at 20 they would be killers. But they don't. See?

Repeating:

Btw,I did say that both marksmen and skel archers are killers,but only due to their ridiculous numbers.

And what those two acomplish via sheer numbers,furries acomplish due to high stats.

Your Warlock is learning creature-enhancing skills, not Expert Destructive Magic or Empowered spells.

He is? So,Im learning attack,defense,luck and leadership now? I didnt know thats what I wrote,twice,up there.Oh well,you must have read it better than I thought I wrote it then.

Fail the Cleansing? Possible, but then just as possible they won't. Don't drag luck into a one-off situation like this one.

Ah,again with your best argument:hypocricy

As for 'killed very early', that's something that won't be happening, for the same reasons as with Blood Furies, unless they're killed by secondary damage.

Cerberi,for example.

If the hero plays just before the Hunters, you get to cast Magical Immunity on them! Great. Cleansing indeed.

I was talkin about this lineup:Enemy hero,master hunters,your hero.GO ahead,cast MI then.But you will loose one turn of hunters,one turn of hero,and a lot of units next to hunters(probably even hunters,but I forgot if theyll attack in melee and get retaliation).

That's what you think. I can play Necropolis and beat the Ranged stacks without taking casualties. I can play Haven and win and lose some Marksmen of my own - but I take less casualties, because Marksmen are freely reproducable and Blood Furies are not. I can play Academy and lose a couple of Stone Gargoyles, or Inferno and lose some Horned Overlords. How about it?

Who says youll toss furries then?You have scouts/assassins,dont you?What do you value more?

I suppose 4 turns with 10 Blood Furies and 2 with a level 2 Hero can wipe out 66 Zombies?

Attack those same zombies with 2 paladins,and youll loose.

Wizards don't have to use Mark of the Wizard early-game. Neither do they have to use a lot of high-level spells. Eldritch Arrow FTW.

They will have to later,while the warlock will still use the same first and 2nd level spells(wizards gain knowledge,thus their spells remain the same power,warlocks gain power,thus increase their spell efficency).

Tell me exactly what your creature-focused Warlock is doing and learning.

I already gave you a build up there,at least twice.Read it.

You're getting more and more unreasonable. If you're unlucky, you can lose Blood Furies to Horned Overlords, but you'd have to be remarkably unlucky. The chances of all 5 Grim Raiders dealing 20 damage is 1/2^5. Add that to the chance that there are no obstacles and to the chance that the Paladins fail to move before the Grim Raiders, and to the chance that - crucially - the Haven player does not deploy the Paladins.

Yes,if you are unlucky you can loose furries to overlords.So?And if you are fearing you may loose paladins,why would you then deploy furries in such a battle?

How often do you not run the risk of losing them? You'd stand a risk of losing them if you're up against Cerberi or Grim Raiders. Don't say Hydras. It's early-game.

Fodder+spells.By fodder I mean either minotaurs or scouts.You dont need much of them either.4 can do the job,depending on your current power,that is.

First, if the Sylvan army can destroy the Dungeon force without Hunters, it's because the Dungeon force has voluntarily removed his hero from battle while the Ranger is still present.

And why would the dungeon hero do that?If you say because he chose to target hunters,Ill repeat myself and say that Id do that if your hunters are strong enough to survive 2 MSs and still be dangerous(meaning you have 100 of them).If you have such a stack that would mean that your other stacks are rather weak.Or,if they are not,that would mean that my army is proportionally as strong.If not,then whats the use in fighting such a battle?That would mean I made a mistake a few weaks earlier.

Second, I did not say my army can destroy yours no matter what you do, I only said that my army can destroy yours if you only cast Lighthing Bolt.

And I said that Ill cast lightning bolt on your hunters because that stack can survive 2 empowered MSs and still be a significant threat(100+ of them).I wouldnt always do that.

Third, your three spells will be three Lightning Bolts, because you're so intent on keeping the Hunters out of battle.

Umm...Are we discussing heaven or sylvan now?

Four, killing 500 Marksmen with three spells is hardly easy for a level 16 Warlock, and if you're doing that you'll drain all your spellpoints and leave the other killers untouched.

I didnt say kill,I said remove.And specifically said in paratheses that remove does not equal kill.Why do I even bother arguing you if I have to repeat everything to you numerous times?

Wizards can do without building dwellings early-game. Warlocks can't. They run out of spell points, Wizards generally don't.

Why do warlocks run out of spellpoints?

4 Paladins run 66 Zombies through without any problems, while if you have just 1 you won't be using Paladins to clear the Zombies. Of course the 10 Blood Furies will win as well. They just have to move. Sylvan won't be using Hunters against the Zombies as well; they'd play hit-and-run with Sprites.

4 paladins in day three after you built their dwelling?Ooookeeey....

I fail to read any kind of contradiction into 1 and 2.

Sorry,missread the 1.

The Imperial Griffins do not change the Paladin's situation of being the target of the entire enemy army, but they reduce the army that are actually attacking the Paladins.

But wait,you just gave me everything on the plate.You say that no matter where they land,griffins dont block anyone,you say that no matter where griffins are,paladins will always be targeted by the whole enemy army.That leads to the conclusion that whatever you do,everyone will pound the paladins.You can only reduce this damage,but not remove it,thus paladins will die,and fairly quickly.That,by your definition of killer units being only the units that survive(which is rather weird),means that paladins arent killers but finesse units.

Well then you lost this section of the debate, and we can focus on the others, and we can clear all parts related to this matter.

Honestly!I will stop draging this any longer until you learn how to read!Until then,my reply to everything you say further on will be:"You proved yourself wrong,yet you lack the capacity to comprehend it,thus you twist the words into delusioning yourself that you are right,and since Im not a shrink,there is no point in me trying to remove those delusions."

[Banedon]

@Higher tier units no longer dominating the game - Ever since I started playing Heroes the key units to Necropolis has always been those you augment with Necromancy - Skeletons, Vampires, Skeleton Warriors and now Skeleton Archers. So what? It's always a bad thing to have a weak level 6 creature. I did not and will never say that using Shadow Matriaches to attack Master Hunters is a bad move. This point is irrelevant and I will not pursue it anymore.

@Intelligence - There aren't any necessary skills. They all 'help' only. Intelligence helps a good deal. You may not want to learn it. OK. That's your decision and not mine. The upshot is that you'll be able to cast less Empowered spells in the final battle but have certain other skills to compensate.

@Dungeon minimizing losses - This is the way I see things. Dungeon relies on Assassins and Blood Furies primarily in the first few turns, with very ocassional spells to back them up. Dungeon cannot fling as many Eldritch Arrows and a Wizard can, nor can they be casting Fireball or anything similar. Therefore in most of the battles you fight you have to rely on ingenuity and careful manipulation of the two creatures you do have to win.

If Dungeon deploys Minotaurs, it's no longer the first few turns. Unfortunately for Dungeon the Minotaurs don't come that quickly and they're level 3 - they cost a moderate amount of gold to hire and sacrificing them will be a tough call. So while Dungeon can use the tactic of Minotaurs only + spells, it costs two things he needs: gold and spellpoints. Even at the end of the first week Dungeon will have mana problems. The hero isn't strong enough to use physical attacks to kill, neither is he strong enough to cast Eldritch Arrows nonstop. Dungeon can use the tactic - but Dungeon cannot use it wantonly, only once every two or three turns.

It is at this point that Dungeon reveals its weaknesses, and this is one of the things that make me dislike Dungeon so.

What if the unicorns survive?And again,that has nothing to do with the griffins landing space.They could still block the trants.And it could also happen that you need to wait twice with the emeralds for the griffins to dive.

You misunderstood me. The Unicorns will be where the Master Hunters are to grant them Magic Resistance. Since the Sylvan player does not know where you are dive bombing, he will not move the War Dancers, just in case. The Imperial Griffins will never block the Ancient Treants. As for the Emeralds having to wait twice, this just shows your lack of tactical skill. The Emerald Dragons are hardly going to wait twice. They'll wait once at most and then start maneuvering. They move not to prepare a charge, they move to lend more protection to the Master Hunters and Druid Elders.

@Skeleton Archers and Blood Fury hit and run - Skeleton Archers aren't the only exception. Marksmen as well. Titans, Archmages. Pit Lords (OK they aren't ranged, but they cast destructive magic and deal ranged damage), Succubi. Dungeon does not have the firepower to do what you say, killing all the Ranged creatures by brute force. This will simply not happen. If it could happen then the battle would be irrelevant, and Dungeon will win quickly.

@Logic - Clearly you don't have the experience I do with Mathematics, so let me explain again. Tell me where you found it unclear.

1. In mathematical logic a if / then (A->B) is true if A is true and B is true, if A is not true and B is true and if A is not true and B is not true. The statement is false if A is true and B is not true.
2. The statement 'if the entire army attacks the Blood Furies then the Blood Furies die before they act three times' is true, because if the entire army attacks the Blood Furies the Blood Furies do not stay alive.
3. In mathematical logic the statement A->B is completely equivalent to ~B->~A. Applied to the above statement this means the statement 'if the Blood Furies do not die before they act three times then the entire army did not attack the Blood Furies' is true.
4. We know the Blood Furies did not die before they acted three times. Hence by the above, if A is true the only way the statement can be true is that B is true: that the entire army did not attack the Blood Furies.
5. Hence we are completely justified in asking 'why'. The answer to the why question is simply, because the Blood Furies are not dangerous killers.

@Blood Furies having high stats and thus making up for their lack of numbers - the Blood Furies do not have sufficiently high stats to make up for their low growth. They cannot make the 'killer' classification simply because they aren't powerful enough.

@Hypocrisy - DaemianLucifer I find your posts increasingly illogical, evasive of my main thrusts and you as a person who's so egoical that you refuse to admit you have been decisively defeated in this argument. You may have won a few skirmishes here and there but you've lost the argument. No wonder Mytical warned me against debating with you.

I was talkin about this lineup:Enemy hero,master hunters,your hero.GO ahead,cast MI then.But you will loose one turn of hunters,one turn of hero,and a lot of units next to hunters(probably even hunters,but I forgot if theyll attack in melee and get retaliation).

No idea what you mean. And yes cast Magical Immunity. By forcing you to invoke Irresistable Magic (which you aren't levelling up) you kill a lot less Master Hunters and it removes the even more destructive spell Meteor Shower from battle that turn. What makes you think the Master Hunters will have to attack in melee? Don't tell me Confusion. Magical Immunity thrashes Confusion. Don't tell me Irresistable Magic. You can't cast Confusion on an immune unit.

@Tossing Scouts / Assassins - the choice is not yours to make. If you deploy both Blood Furies and Assassins the AI will make the choice, and he's almost certain to kill the Blood Furies. You can't toss the Scouts / Assassins instead unless you don't deploy the Blood Furies, which will then result in heavy casualties. No doubt you can do this once, but you can't keep it up. Don't forget, Assassins reproduce slowly as well.

@Attacking 66 Zombies with 2 Paladins - Haven has the luxury of knowing that by the time he gets Paladins he'll have a sizabale army of Marksmen. Why should he use his Paladins if he's going to lose? Do you imagine the Haven player to be so blind to the fact that he doesn't have enough Paladins and yet be such a fervent cultist of the 'Paladins are killers of infidels!' train of thought that he deploys them nonetheless? Until Haven amasses a sizable army of Paladins he'll take out the Zombies with the original method of Marksmen attacks. The fact that 2 Paladins lose to 66 Zombies is therefore irrelevant.

@Mark of the Wizard - So Academy will have to use Mark of the Wizard sooner or later. So what? Academy doesn't have to use it earlier. That's the point. Academy has more knowledge and can use more spells in the first few turns than Dungeon can.

@Build - OK.

Yes,if you are unlucky you can loose furries to overlords.So?And if you are fearing you may loose paladins,why would you then deploy furries in such a battle?

OK. You don't deploy the Blood Furies. How do you propose to win? Ra eat your 'fodder + spells' assertion. It's turn 3. Go on, beat 50 Horned Overseers with a turn 3 army without Blood Furies.

And why would the dungeon hero do that?If you say because he chose to target hunters,Ill repeat myself and say that Id do that if your hunters are strong enough to survive 2 MSs and still be dangerous(meaning you have 100 of them).If you have such a stack that would mean that your other stacks are rather weak.Or,if they are not,that would mean that my army is proportionally as strong.If not,then whats the use in fighting such a battle?That would mean I made a mistake a few weaks earlier.

See, you got lost in the thread and lost sight of what this point was originally meant to mean. Read through it again. You are not casting Meteor Shower. You are freezing / stunning the Master Hunters because your creature-based Warlock isn't focusing on destructive magic.

I didnt say kill,I said remove.And specifically said in paratheses that remove does not equal kill.Why do I even bother arguing you if I have to repeat everything to you numerous times?

Why do I even bother arguing with you if you can't even understand simple logic? Why do I even bother arguing with you if you switch your arguments so often? You started this section by saying a Warlock does not have to cast Empowered Meteor Shower all the time and that stunning or freezing the Hunters was a viable choice. I expanded on that and illustrated how the Warlock that does not use his destructive magics to the full would find himself underpowered and underefficient against a typical Sylvan army. Now you're saying you'll cast two Empowered Meteor Showers and then start freezing / stunning. WTF. I bet if I pursue this train of argument you'll go on to say that you'll cast two Empowered Meteor Showers, Mass Confusion / Mass Slow / assorted curses, stun the Emerald Dragons, stun the Druid Elders and then stun the Master Hunters. You claim you are repeating yourself. I say you are just being annoying.

@Why Warlocks run out of spellpoints - Why shouldn't they? They're using spells and Mana doesn't grow on trees. They have less Knowledge than Wizards. They have to kill faster because Wizard can afford to lose creatures better than Warlock can.

But wait,you just gave me everything on the plate.You say that no matter where they land,griffins dont block anyone,you say that no matter where griffins are,paladins will always be targeted by the whole enemy army.That leads to the conclusion that whatever you do,everyone will pound the paladins.You can only reduce this damage,but not remove it,thus paladins will die,and fairly quickly.That,by your definition of killer units being only the units that survive(which is rather weird),means that paladins arent killers but finesse units.

I have never defined killer units as the only units that survive. In fact, I have always argued that it is the killer units that die first. Not the most fragile Sprites or Blood Furies. The tough, walking machine of destruction that is the Paladins die first. And this is a quote back to you DaemianLucifer:

Why do I even bother arguing you if I have to repeat everything to you numerous times?

I have been trying to say this for like 418702 pages. Sigh.

[DaemianLucifer]

And you have officially lost it!I wont argue this one,I am just going to point out your numerous reading mistakes,and top it with the sentence I mentioned earlier:

@Intelligence - There aren't any necessary skills. They all 'help' only. Intelligence helps a good deal. You may not want to learn it. OK. That's your decision and not mine. The upshot is that you'll be able to cast less Empowered spells in the final battle but have certain other skills to compensate.

Your words are that a warlock without enlightment is screwed.Read it about two pages before.

@Logic - Clearly you don't have the experience I do with Mathematics, so let me explain again. Tell me where you found it unclear.
.
.
.
5. Hence we are completely justified in asking 'why'. The answer to the why question is simply, because the Blood Furies are not dangerous killers.

Big words for someone who doesnt read.Let me quote you myself,but bolding key words:

No,thats not the logic Im saying is wrong.Its your "doesnt happen thus the whole thing is invalid" "logic".Oh,wait,...you just negated it.Inconsistency?

No idea what you mean. And yes cast Magical Immunity. By forcing you to invoke Irresistable Magic (which you aren't levelling up) you kill a lot less Master Hunters and it removes the even more destructive spell Meteor Shower from battle that turn. What makes you think the Master Hunters will have to attack in melee? Don't tell me Confusion. Magical Immunity thrashes Confusion. Don't tell me Irresistable Magic. You can't cast Confusion on an immune unit.

This part was about inferno against sylvan,not dungeon versus sylvan,thus the importance of dark magic,not destruction magic.

@Attacking 66 Zombies with 2 Paladins - Haven has the luxury of knowing that by the time he gets Paladins he'll have a sizabale army of Marksmen. Why should he use his Paladins if he's going to lose? Do you imagine the Haven player to be so blind to the fact that he doesn't have enough Paladins and yet be such a fervent cultist of the 'Paladins are killers of infidels!' train of thought that he deploys them nonetheless? Until Haven amasses a sizable army of Paladins he'll take out the Zombies with the original method of Marksmen attacks. The fact that 2 Paladins lose to 66 Zombies is therefore irrelevant.

Your said that 10 furries have to manouver to kill 66 zombies,but 4 paladins would slice through them like through cheese.Why compare 10 furries with 4 paladins is beyod me.

OK. You don't deploy the Blood Furies. How do you propose to win? Ra eat your 'fodder + spells' assertion. It's turn 3. Go on, beat 50 Horned Overseers with a turn 3 army without Blood Furies.

Why would you not deploy furries against overseers?Read again,I said if you fear you may loose them.

See, you got lost in the thread and lost sight of what this point was originally meant to mean. Read through it again. You are not casting Meteor Shower. You are freezing / stunning the Master Hunters because your creature-based Warlock isn't focusing on destructive magic.

Nope,I didnt loose it,you lost it.My initial argument was that I wasnt always going to MS,because bolt is better if the stack is high enough to survive two empowered MSs and still be a threat.Three pages ago,I think.Read it again.Carefully.

Why do I even bother arguing with you if you can't even understand simple logic? Why do I even bother arguing with you if you switch your arguments so often? You started this section by saying a Warlock does not have to cast Empowered Meteor Shower all the time and that stunning or freezing the Hunters was a viable choice. I expanded on that and illustrated how the Warlock that does not use his destructive magics to the full would find himself underpowered and underefficient against a typical Sylvan army. Now you're saying you'll cast two Empowered Meteor Showers and then start freezing / stunning. WTF. I bet if I pursue this train of argument you'll go on to say that you'll cast two Empowered Meteor Showers, Mass Confusion / Mass Slow / assorted curses, stun the Emerald Dragons, stun the Druid Elders and then stun the Master Hunters. You claim you are repeating yourself. I say you are just being annoying.

Here,you just mixed everything up.Its a mesh of inferno-sylvan and dungeon-sylvan example,with some sprinkles of missread arguments about when to cast MS and when to cast bolt instead.

@Why Warlocks run out of spellpoints - Why shouldn't they? They're using spells and Mana doesn't grow on trees. They have less Knowledge than Wizards. They have to kill faster because Wizard can afford to lose creatures better than Warlock can.

And again read the part about who gets mana and who gets knowledge,and what spells are being used by who.

I have never defined killer units as the only units that survive. In fact, I have always argued that it is the killer units that die first. Not the most fragile Sprites or Blood Furies. The tough, walking machine of destruction that is the Paladins die first. And this is a quote back to you DaemianLucifer:

Among your first words in this argument were those that paladins have high HP,thus are killers while furries arent because they die quickly.Read it again,page 12:

Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by 'killer'. A killer unit is one that can deal damage, and a lot of it. A killer unit is by its very nature valuable - I can tolerate losing 10 Zombies much better than losing 1 Skeleton Archer. If a melee killer cannot be preserved easily, I would instead call it 'finesse'.

And to repeat:

You proved yourself wrong,yet you lack the capacity to comprehend it,thus you twist the words into delusioning yourself that you are right,and since Im not a shrink,there is no point in me trying to remove those delusions.

[Banedon]

Very well DaemianLucifer.

Your words are that a warlock without enlightment is screwed.Read it about two pages before.

I was under the impression that Enlightenment provides +10 to all stats then. I still say Enlightenment is too valuable to give up. You don't care, so what? How do you want me to prove that Logistics in Heroes 3 is so important that you can't give it up?

Big words for someone who doesnt read.Let me quote you myself,but bolding key words:

Big words for someone who doesn't read either. My logic is airtight. So airtight I have zero idea how you fail to comprehend it. Everything leads from one to the other with perfect consistency, with the conclusion that 'hence Blood Furies are not dangerous killers'. I have not used the assumption that all this is going to happen either; in fact I have used the fact that it doesn't happen to prove my case. If you are not willing to put in any effort to understanding me I do not see any reason to read your posts.

This part was about inferno against sylvan,not dungeon versus sylvan,thus the importance of dark magic,not destruction magic.

This part was about Inferno against Sylvan? And the Inferno army's led by a Warlock with Irresistable Magic? Show me the quotes. Don't try to convince me without any quotes.

Your said that 10 furries have to manouver to kill 66 zombies,but 4 paladins would slice through them like through cheese.Why compare 10 furries with 4 paladins is beyod me.

Why you brought in using Paladins against Zombies is beyond me. That's the incomprehensible thing. Because you said this I was forced to use 4 Paladins against 10 Blood Furies. Blame yourself, not me.

Why would you not deploy furries against overseers?Read again,I said if you fear you may loose them.

If luck goes against you you are going to lose Blood Furies. Want to bet?

Nope,I didnt loose it,you lost it.My initial argument was that I wasnt always going to MS,because bolt is better if the stack is high enough to survive two empowered MSs and still be a threat.Three pages ago,I think.Read it again.Carefully.

This is the last time I am doing this DaemianLucifer. Next time find your own quotes, and if you cannot, yield the point:

Tell me,when does warlock not use IM?And why does it force me to give up MS?It will still be just one creature thats protected.Plus because its hunters,Id probably use (chain) lightning,ice bolt or circle of winter rather than MS,because of their stun not their damage.And the stun is always there,no matter if you ressist the damage or not.Thats the beauty of IM.

Nowhere have you mentioned you're going to cast two Meteor Showers first.

And again read the part about who gets mana and who gets knowledge,and what spells are being used by who.

No one wrote anything about who gets mana and who gets knowledge and what spells are being used by who.

Among your first words in this argument were those that paladins have high HP,thus are killers while furries arent because they die quickly.Read it again,page 12:

Your problem is that you extract my quote without looking at the rest of it. Look carefully.

Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by 'killer'. A killer unit is one that can deal damage, and a lot of it. A killer unit is by its very nature valuable - I can tolerate losing 10 Zombies much better than losing 1 Skeleton Archer. If a melee killer cannot be preserved easily, I would instead call it 'finesse'.

Tell me you can fight a final battle against a player and lose a grand total of 1 Skeleton Archer. Yes. Tell me that. You won't? Obviously not. If Necropolis fights a final battle against another player the chances are either all the Skeleton Archers die, a large chunk of them die or else none of them die (all animated, in which case it was a very one-sided battle).

Now use your brain. Under what context was I assuming when I said that if a melee killer cannot be preserved easily, I would instead call it 'finesse'? Did I assume the final battle? No I did not, for if I did I would not have said 'lose 1 Skeleton Archer'. Then use your brain again; don't let it rust just because you're a devil. Under what situations did I say that Paladins die faster than Blood Furies? Did I not say that Paladins never die agaisnt neutrals? Is not the logical implication being that Paladins never die faster than Blood Furies except in the final battle, when they do precisely because they are dangerous killers?

You proved yourself wrong,yet you lack the capacity to comprehend it,thus you twist the words into delusioning yourself that you are right,and since Im not a shrink,there is no point in me trying to remove those delusions.

The person deluded is you. If you don't believe me, we can ask anyone who cares to read this debate if they could follow my reasoning. I bet only you cannot.

[winterfate]

The person deluded is you. If you don't believe me, we can ask anyone who cares to read this debate if they could follow my reasoning. I bet only you cannot.

I lost my ability to follow any form of reasoning inside of this thread after about page 20.... But here goes . I'll do the best I can.

I was under the impression that Enlightenment provides +10 to all stats then. I still say Enlightenment is too valuable to give up. You don't care, so what? How do you want me to prove that Logistics in Heroes 3 is so important that you can't give it up?

We agree to disagree on Enlightment . IMO, I only use Enlightment with Wizards (for Spell Power). I do agree with the Logistics part though. In H3, Logistics is sacred (heck, in 5 it's also sacred).

If luck goes against you you are going to lose Blood Furies. Want to bet?

I agree. Minotaurs, Hydras and Assassins (with Shadow Matriarches if you wish) teamed up will defeat most of anything late-game, but Blood Furies lack survivability, especially late.
They do lovely damage in the meantime (and otherwise act as decent bait to protect your other units).

Tell me you can fight a final battle against a player and lose a grand total of 1 Skeleton Archer. Yes. Tell me that. You won't? Obviously not. If Necropolis fights a final battle against another player the chances are either all the Skeleton Archers die, a large chunk of them die or else none of them die (all animated, in which case it was a very one-sided battle).

Now use your brain. Under what context was I assuming when I said that if a melee killer cannot be preserved easily, I would instead call it 'finesse'? Did I assume the final battle? No I did not, for if I did I would not have said 'lose 1 Skeleton Archer'. Then use your brain again; don't let it rust just because you're a devil. Under what situations did I say that Paladins die faster than Blood Furies? Did I not say that Paladins never die agaisnt neutrals? Is not the logical implication being that Paladins never die faster than Blood Furies except in the final battle, when they do precisely because they are dangerous killers?

Why kill the Paladins when I can Puppet Master/Frenzy/Blind them with my Necromancer (if it's Necro vs Haven)? Skeleton Archers are IMPOSSIBLE to keep alive too (but I tend to exploit the aggro they draw by Marking them to gain mana). But all of this is beside the point of the argument at hand .

@Banedon: I hope you didn't mean read the WHOLE thread... .

[DaemianLucifer]

I was under the impression that Enlightenment provides +10 to all stats then. I still say Enlightenment is too valuable to give up. You don't care, so what? How do you want me to prove that Logistics in Heroes 3 is so important that you can't give it up?

Its important in HV as well,and I always take it.But does that mean its a must?No.People can still win without it.

Big words for someone who doesn't read either. My logic is airtight. So airtight I have zero idea how you fail to comprehend it. Everything leads from one to the other with perfect consistency, with the conclusion that 'hence Blood Furies are not dangerous killers'. I have not used the assumption that all this is going to happen either; in fact I have used the fact that it doesn't happen to prove my case. If you are not willing to put in any effort to understanding me I do not see any reason to read your posts.

This part was about Inferno against Sylvan? And the Inferno army's led by a Warlock with Irresistable Magic? Show me the quotes. Don't try to convince me without any quotes.

It's the normal way actually. Inferno Gates and then charges. But you are the one going off track. So long as Inferno charges (as it must eventually) Sylvan will be getting in shots at full damage, which means the Master Hunters will be doing significantly more damage than the Blood Furies, which refutes your point.

Not really.Blind,puppet master,frenzy,slow,confusion.All those are ways to neutralize the hunters,even if for a single round.And lets not forget what the succubi and pitlords will do here while you wait for summons to arive.Furthermore,you will be forcing sylvan to charge you,thus opening a path to your gated units.So the only full strike hunters get will be against gated units.

There are more continuing this line of thought leading to the one that confused you a lot.Follow it yourself if you want,Im to lazy to do it through my every post.

Why you brought in using Paladins against Zombies is beyond me. That's the incomprehensible thing. Because you said this I was forced to use 4 Paladins against 10 Blood Furies. Blame yourself, not me.

Nah, the Hydras / Zombies and Demons won't all die before crossing the field, but the Blood Furies will exploit their superior intiative and speed to run rings around them, eventually leading to an outright victory. This is a tactic everyone using Blood Furies knows / will know. The Blood Furies move. They maneuver. So it has been said, so it is done.

Read the above.It would have to be a very big number of those units for you not to be able to kill them before they cross the field.And to spice it up a bit,against such a big numbers,youd loose a few of your hunters if you fought them,and probably even paladins.

It was about your saying that paladins and hunters are so good against neutral walkers.Aparently,they are not.

If luck goes against you you are going to lose Blood Furies. Want to bet?

Im not the one disputing luck here,you are:

I stand by my original statement: you should never lose a Paladin to neutrals, and if you have to lose one, there's a good chance you should not have fought it in the first place. Paladins are simply too valuable to lose.

And continuing from there through the next few posts.

This is the last time I am doing this DaemianLucifer. Next time find your own quotes, and if you cannot, yield the point:

Tell me,when does warlock not use IM?And why does it force me to give up MS?It will still be just one creature thats protected.Plus because its hunters,Id probably use (chain) lightning,ice bolt or circle of winter rather than MS,because of their stun not their damage.And the stun is always there,no matter if you ressist the damage or not.Thats the beauty of IM.

Nowhere have you mentioned you're going to cast two Meteor Showers first.

Correct,I never mentioned that Im going to cast MS twice.Go back a bit and check how that one started:By you saying how youll MI your most powerfull stack,the hunters,to which I replied that I can incapacitate them without MS.Furthermore,I did say a bit later that if the stack can survive two MSs and still be dangerous there is no point in casting it.I didnt say I will cast MS twice and then cast bolts,I said if two MSs arent enough I wont bother casting them.

No one wrote anything about who gets mana and who gets knowledge and what spells are being used by who.

So,now I am no one?Cute:

They will have to later,while the warlock will still use the same first and 2nd level spells(wizards gain knowledge,thus their spells remain the same power,warlocks gain power,thus increase their spell efficency).

So,lets see,you distorted the example about dragons behind walls,without even considering what follows from it,yet you consider your example about furries to be valid,you distorted,numerous times,my build,you distorted the battle against the inferno and turned it into a battle against dungeon,you gave a 5 step pointer on how to prove my point,which you yourself proved(I didnt even have to lift a finger),and you called me no one.What can be said about that,save for:

You proved yourself wrong,yet you lack the capacity to comprehend it,thus you twist the words into delusioning yourself that you are right,and since Im not a shrink,there is no point in me trying to remove those delusions.

Well,at least you remained consistent in one thing:The further this goes,the worse you are.I give you credit for that at least.

[Jolly Joker]

I might well put in my opinion on Enlightenment for the Warlock here.

As initial pick it's a clear NO-NO. It will clutter your ability side of the pickings with unwanted (Scholar, Intuition) abilities and the only usable ability (Intelligence) won't solve any problems your hero-creature combination might encounter on their way to clear the Crystal and Sulfur mines. You need other skills and abilities for that.

Basic Enlightenment is easily the best "last skill", though. "Last skill" means, a skill you pick in the full knowledge of the fact you might not be able to max it out anymore or even get an ability for (albeit Intelligence would be a rather acceptable one to pick at that).

[okrane]

What about Yrwanna?

[Gaidal Cain]

I find that a decently sized stack of Furies most often manages to take care of most of the low-level slow walkers before they've corssed, with the aid of scouts and the hero. Hydras is another matter, but when facing those, you're probably beyond using only Furies/scouts anyway.

Do you play a lot of Heroic difficulty games? In the third turn you might have 10 Blood Furies and yet attack Hordes of Horned Overlords. You're unlikely to kill them all; you have to move.

I mostly play hard; I find the game best balanced on that level.

It's 1500 gold only. I find it can be afforded second week most of the time, at least if the map has reasonable amounts of gold.

Oh my, embarassing The problem with debating with you Gaidal Cain is that I need to upgrade my knowledge a lot more...I was under the impression that it costs Sulphur. Whether it will be built early in the second week is difficult to call though. I suppose it depends on whether the Warlock's going for Shadow Matriaches.

But what's that got to do with the question? Intelligence is still going to help the Warlock.

It was you who said that the Warlock won't have it. I say they do most of the time, helping by augmenting the mana. Intelligence is going to help any hero except possibly Wizard, but so would Expert Light magic. Just because it helps, it isn't a necessity.

@Skeleton Archers and Blood Fury hit and run - Skeleton Archers aren't the only exception. Marksmen as well. Titans, Archmages. Pit Lords (OK they aren't ranged, but they cast destructive magic and deal ranged damage), Succubi. Dungeon does not have the firepower to do what you say, killing all the Ranged creatures by brute force. This will simply not happen. If it could happen then the battle would be irrelevant, and Dungeon will win quickly.

Titans could well be blocked by Blackies or Raiders (or TA:ed Hydras if you're so inclined)- wizards are unlikely to have tactics. Blocking Pit Lords ain't going to do anything more than placing the Furies within reach of Familiars and Overseers, or the Lords attack (that's something I could possibly accept though, since the Lords are damned strong in melee).

[Jolly Joker]

What about Yrwanna?

You don't ask me, I know, but I agree with you, that Yrwanna will make an awfully effective killer unit out of the Furies. A level 19 Yrwanna will give a Fury the attack value of a Hydra or Djinn Sultan. In fact, with Yrwanna the 10 Furies are nearly as effective as the 6 Deep Hydras then - with more than double the initiative.

[Banedon]

Why kill the Paladins when I can Puppet Master/Frenzy/Blind them with my Necromancer (if it's Necro vs Haven)? Skeleton Archers are IMPOSSIBLE to keep alive too (but I tend to exploit the aggro they draw by Marking them to gain mana). But all of this is beside the point of the argument at hand .

This is a highly risky move in my opinion, especially since the Haven player will have Light Magic and hence Magical Immunity. The consequences could hurt badly; you need to eliminate the Paladin stack.

Its important in HV as well,and I always take it.But does that mean its a must?No.People can still win without it.

You can say the same thing in Heroes 3 and I won't be able to refute it, especially in debates like this.

There are more continuing this line of thought leading to the one that confused you a lot.Follow it yourself if you want,Im to lazy to do it through my every post.

You got confused DaemianLucifer. The path which began with what you wrote led to your conclusion that I was being hypocritical. I retaliated with my own accusation of you being hypocritical. The next quote was no longer directed at Inferno but at the next paragraph (after your irrelevant 'Cerberi, for example' words). Reread it; it's all on this page.

It was about your saying that paladins and hunters are so good against neutral walkers.Aparently,they are not.

Show me the quote where I said Paladins and Master Hunters are so good against neutral walkers. Apparently, I have not made any such quotes. You're once again taking my words out of context. The problem is that I have not said that Paladins destroy every creature in the game and you say I have. In the category of slow walkers Blood Furies are excellent while Paladins and Master Hunters are not. But against fast walkers, casters, fliers and sieges, the reverse is (almost) true. The Paladins and Master Hunters may not be the best units available but they do better than Blood Furies.

Im not the one disputing luck here,you are:

I'm not disputing luck. Show me the quotes where I 'disputed' luck, whatever that may mean. You should never lose a Paladin to neutrals. You can't give me a good reason why I should. To every scenario where you say it's possible I've given you a method to avoid it, the simplest being not to deploy the Paladins. Don't say the same thing with Blood Furies. You can not deploy Paladins and win the battle; you can't do the same with Blood Furies.

And then before you start crying double standards, realize that the Blood Furies and Paladins are different creatures, separated by 4 entire tiers. By the time you get Paladins it is late-game and you can challenge the more dangerous stacks; you won't be doing that with Blood Furies. Instead of contending with ArchMages like you have to when using Paladins the Blood Furies contend with creatures like Sprites and Marksmen. The same conclusion's drawn. Paladins never die to neutrals; Blood Furies have a much higher chance of doing so.

Correct,I never mentioned that Im going to cast MS twice.Go back a bit and check how that one started:By you saying how youll MI your most powerfull stack,the hunters,to which I replied that I can incapacitate them without MS.Furthermore,I did say a bit later that if the stack can survive two MSs and still be dangerous there is no point in casting it.I didnt say I will cast MS twice and then cast bolts,I said if two MSs arent enough I wont bother casting them.

Your words:

If the stack is large enough to survive more than two lightning bolts,then it would surelly survive more than two meteor showers,and then Id surelly not use it on them.Imbilizing them would be a priority,thus lightning bolt and stun,or ice bolt and freeze,depending on what I have.

You're still casting them after all. You're not casting Meteor Shower but you're casting Lightning Bolt / Ice Bolt / Circle of Winter, thus totally falling into my view that your hero is removing himself from the main battle while the Ranger is still in action. And yet you argue.

They will have to later,while the warlock will still use the same first and 2nd level spells(wizards gain knowledge,thus their spells remain the same power,warlocks gain power,thus increase their spell efficency).

I see nothing relevant between this and what was originally under debated.

So,lets see,you distorted the example about dragons behind walls,without even considering what follows from it,yet you consider your example about furries to be valid,you distorted,numerous times,my build,you distorted the battle against the inferno and turned it into a battle against dungeon,you gave a 5 step pointer on how to prove my point,which you yourself proved(I didnt even have to lift a finger),and you called me no one.What can be said about that,save for:

You proved yourself wrong,yet you lack the capacity to comprehend it,thus you twist the words into delusioning yourself that you are right,and since Im not a shrink,there is no point in me trying to remove those delusions.

Well,at least you remained consistent in one thing:The further this goes,the worse you are.I give you credit for that at least.

I say the same thing to you. You have lost this debate on almost all counts. You have not been able to refute my main argument that Blood Furies stay alive because they are not killers. You have twisted and turned, avoided and evaded, attempted to throw the entire thing out for irrelevance. The point is still there. The prosecution rests its case, let the jury decide.

To all neutral observers:

Do you agree that Paladins die faster than Blood Furies in the final battle because the Blood Furies are not targetted, and the reasonable inference from this is that the Blood Furies are not killer units?

EDIT: This question should be answered with the context that there are significant numbers of Shadow Matriaches and Black Dragons on the battlefield as well.

Basic Enlightenment is easily the best "last skill", though. "Last skill" means, a skill you pick in the full knowledge of the fact you might not be able to max it out anymore or even get an ability for (albeit Intelligence would be a rather acceptable one to pick at that).

Totally my opinion, totally not DaemianLucifer's.

It was you who said that the Warlock won't have it. I say they do most of the time, helping by augmenting the mana. Intelligence is going to help any hero except possibly Wizard, but so would Expert Light magic. Just because it helps, it isn't a necessity.

Did I say it was a necessity? If I did I take it back. It's not a necessity for most of early-game though it helps; later you will do well to pick it up though.

Titans could well be blocked by Blackies or Raiders (or TA:ed Hydras if you're so inclined)- wizards are unlikely to have tactics. Blocking Pit Lords ain't going to do anything more than placing the Furies within reach of Familiars and Overseers, or the Lords attack (that's something I could possibly accept though, since the Lords are damned strong in melee).

DaemianLucifer's argument was that Dungeon should be able to destroy any Ranged creature within a few moves. See this quote:

My point is that you wont use furries as blockers.Furthermore,you will never block any unit with dungeon.With dungeon,if you cant kill enemies ranged units and have to block them,that means that you lost.

With this as the context it explains why I mentioned the Pit Lords. They're not Ranged units but they deal Ranged damage.

@Yrwanna: If Yrwanna is commanding the Blood Furies they obviously increase in importance, maybe displacing the Grim Raiders. But this doesn't really change things, and Blood Furies remain finesse.

[Elvin]

To all neutral observers:

Do you agree that Paladins die faster than Blood Furies in the final battle because the Blood Furies are not targetted, and the reasonable inference from this is that the Blood Furies are not killer units?

No, the furies will probably die or be greatly weakened within the first or second round. Most people I know try to decrease their numbers right away to avoid their attacks. The raiders will draw more fire upon them naturally but even an attack of low ranged tier can kill many of them.

Paladins also die faster than I'd like but I value them more than the furies(D'uh!) so even if they die 2 at a time it's just as painful.

Once in a while I check this thread but I have no wish to read ALL these lengthy posts to respond accurately to the matter(s) in hand. Don't mind I reply rarely as I may miss something and give a faulty opinion

[Banedon]

Well argued. I should refine my question such that significant numbers of Black Dragons and Shadow Matriaches are on the battlefield as well.

@DaemianLucifer - before you object, the lesser the tiers of the creatures around the higher on the prioritiy list Blood Furies will be. That's not because they're finesse, that's because there's no one else to target.

[Mightor Magic]

I play Dungeon as Might and not Magic. Attack, Logistics, Luck, Leadership and Destructive Magic {Minotaur hero is a favorite of mine}. The faction gets a cheap Artifact Merchant so I spend my time looking for those Speed Boots and items that increase Morale and Luck.

I keep two stacks of Furies {Literally sacrficing some Hyras to boost growth and skipping Matriarchs} and I play hide and seek around the large creatures with the Furies, Assassins and Minotaurs. Furies with 5 Luck, 5 Morale and +2 Speed are killers, make no doubt about that. But the fun part is when the Minotaurs come into play.

Effective? I don't know but I like it more than just casting Destructive spell after Destructive spell. I think my build would be better with Light or Dark magic but since I need the Luck for my units, I take Warlock's Luck as a freebie.

[okrane]

PEOPLE... who cares if furies are killers of finesse?! They are useful the way they are, no matter what you call them...

if you want to talk about something make it more concrete... like warlocks being weak early on... which I disagree... since furries are really good at taking out neutrals... and the hero is pretty strong too...

[Jolly Joker]

Well phrased. Agree completely.

[DaemianLucifer]

I wont respond to the rest,because you still didnt learn to read.But I wwont let you put words into my mouth:

Basic Enlightenment is easily the best "last skill", though. "Last skill" means, a skill you pick in the full knowledge of the fact you might not be able to max it out anymore or even get an ability for (albeit Intelligence would be a rather acceptable one to pick at that).

Totally my opinion, totally not DaemianLucifer's.

I said enlightment is a pretty good skill to have,but not a necessity.You were the one advocating its a must,not me.So its the other way round of what you said.

[Alamar]

I might well put in my opinion on Enlightenment for the Warlock here.

As initial pick it's a clear NO-NO. It will clutter your ability side of the pickings with unwanted (Scholar, Intuition) abilities and the only usable ability (Intelligence) won't solve any problems your hero-creature combination might encounter on their way to clear the Crystal and Sulfur mines. You need other skills and abilities for that.

Basic Enlightenment is easily the best "last skill", though. "Last skill" means, a skill you pick in the full knowledge of the fact you might not be able to max it out anymore or even get an ability for (albeit Intelligence would be a rather acceptable one to pick at that).

I take this point to say that I almost agree 100% with what JJ has to say.

Enlightenment won't often help enough to do the heavy lifting of clearing out crystal and/or sulfer mines early as JJ said. Even if you were lucky and got offered Basic Enlightenment + Intelligence without getting "crap" skills / abilities offered I'm not sure if it would be enough. I'd MUCH prefer Luck 2 [or if you want to go with a MIGHT build Leadership 2] than Elightenment.

As far as being a "last skill" that's tacked on at when there's nothing else to choose from I agree 100%. The stat boost to a mid-to-high level hero are too good to ignore. If you get intelligence then great [if you need mana].

[Banedon]

I wont respond to the rest,because you still didnt learn to read.But I wwont let you put words into my mouth:

I'll read that as you having run out of things to say. This 'debate', if you can call it that, is so clearly skewed that I wonder why I didn't end it earlier.

I said enlightment is a pretty good skill to have,but not a necessity.You were the one advocating its a must,not me.So its the other way round of what you said.

It's a necessity. You just learn it later. By level 20 it's late enough.

@JollyJoker - who were you replying to?

[DaemianLucifer]

It's a necessity. You just learn it later.

Shows that you need to learn to read and be consistent.You said earlier that if you counter my hero that has no enlighment with your hero that does,youll have more levels and more skill points.(heres the quote:

You can give up on Enlightenment, but if your opponent didn't he'll be higher level and accentuate his advantage.

)How are you going to have more levels if you dont learn enlightment in the very begining?So how can this:

Basic Enlightenment is easily the best "last skill", though. "Last skill" means, a skill you pick in the full knowledge of the fact you might not be able to max it out anymore or even get an ability for (albeit Intelligence would be a rather acceptable one to pick at that).

Be totally your oppinion then?

Furthermore,best skill != a must skill.