I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Gaidal Cain]

As soon as you're facing spellcasters that manages to go before paladins and which are strong enough for you not to send griffins in alone against, or when up against any of the level 7 units able to cross the field in one turn.

@Spellcasters - such as? There aren't that many destructive spell casters in the game. Druid Elders would go down to Imperial Griffins, as would Archmages. Only one I can think of would be Pit Lords, against whom you would not attack unless you had a seriously more powerful army.

Druids. Mages. Water Elementals. Rune Patriarchs. You could also add Grim Raiders to the list of dangerous opponents, if they get to move first. And note that you're looking at heavy losses for griffins if you have fewer stacks of 'em than there's of the casters.

Oh, don't embarass me I wasn't...shall we say...concentrating that much when I made that post, having devoted too much energy to another forum. But while I wrote with half my mind elsewhere, this might not make my words unsalvagable. The Warlock still needs to learn Sorcery, Logistics and (probably) Enlightenment. That makes:

I think that's an unfair argument- it's not specific to a warlock in any way, as no hero type will be fully developed by level 20. True, lack of logistics is a drawback, but I don't think it's unsurmountable.

[Banedon]

Druids and Mages, yes. Water Elementals generally don't appear as neutrals (I don't know why, but that's what I've observed). I don't know about Rune Patriaches since I've never played HoF before. As for Grim Raiders, it generally doesn't happen (at least, it hasn't happened to me thus far). Place the Paladins behind some natural obstacle and as far from the middle of the map as possible and you'll generally be able to avoid the Grim Raider's initiatial charge. Then after the Marksmen fire destroy the rest.

As for the Imperial Griffins, well you just split as many as is necessary (eg. split four stacks all the time, and if the caster sticks in one stack then Battle Dive with all four stacks). You might lose some (a few) Imperial Griffins however.

I think that's an unfair argument- it's not specific to a warlock in any way, as no hero type will be fully developed by level 20. True, lack of logistics is a drawback, but I don't think it's unsurmountable.

That's why I say something has to give. DaemianLucifer can't have Tactics, Battle Frenzy, +5 luck and a 330 damage Meteor Shower all at the same time, just like whoever he's facing can't have all his favoured skills available. The critical skills should be there (for Dungeon, probably Destructive Magic and Sorcery, perhaps Enlightenment and another magic school) but the luxury skills probably won't have been learned yet.

[Gaidal Cain]

I'd say that picking up three schools and being reasonably developed in them (=Expert Destruction, Advanced Attack, Advanced/Expert Luck) aren't too far out. Sorcery is good for Warlocks, but IMO, Warlock's luck route is better (especially with some luck-boostinig artifact, in which case the expected damage outcome from spells is roughly the same).

[DaemianLucifer]

Griffins won't change anything. Archangels would. But then what's the point? It just goes to show that the Blood Furies aren't targetted even though the opportunity for targetting them is there. Why? Give me a good reason. Why?

The same reason why paladins wouldnt be the only ones targeted if they had griffins and angels next to them.And griffins would change a thing if they were there.They wont be the primary target,but they would be a target nevertheless.

It never happens, unfortunately, against a good player.

Depends only on luck,not the player skill.

You cannot immobilize a stack permanently with Lightning Bolt. They will move in the end. Meteor Shower is generally a more destructive spell than Chain Lightning, dealing more damage (especially since Sylvan needs to bunch up to protect their shooters).

If the stack is large enough to survive more than two lightning bolts,then it would surelly survive more than two meteor showers,and then Id surelly not use it on them.Imbilizing them would be a priority,thus lightning bolt and stun,or ice bolt and freeze,depending on what I have.

Or it may block your Blood Furies from hitting anything other than the Cerberi at first, later reduced to nothing after the Cerberi get in front of them. Grim Raiders and Black Dragons won't block you completely, but they may force you to take a few more diagonals. Added up, it could result in a blockade.

Nope,dragons and raiders dont add diagonals because you put them on the sides of furries.As for cerberi,if coupled with an obstacle,they shorten your movement by one,without that obstacle,its half of a square.

Your ridiculous example involved your opponent splitting his / her army onto two sides such that it became possible that the Imperial Griffins block the way to the Paladins.

No,I was refering to the dragons in the town example.

As for that about griffins,it doesnt require your army to be split in order to block a few troops with large griffins.

I don't know. I used Duel Mode and I can't use the editor (someway or the other it refuses to work). I highly doubt you can kill 2 Angels in 2 turns with 50 Blood Furies. Take the above damage and divide by half (approximately). Two hits now guarantee you only one Archangel kill. That's even if one of your two hits was lucky.

With such a build,no you cant do that.

And yet when you argue here you assume you have everything. Your Warlock has Tactics to counter Ranged units. He also has Frenzy to kill 2 Archangels in 2 turns. Master of Storms to stun the Master Hunters, Expert Luck for +5 Luck, Expert Destruction to toss Meteor Shower and Irresistable Magic to pierce Magical Immunity. Explain.

Frenzy+tactics+expert attack=5 skills,warlocks luck and expert luck=5 skills,expet distruction+1 master=4 skills,empowered spells+expert IM=4 skills.Total is 18 skills.Quite reasonable at level 15.

I thought you agreed that the Imperial Griffins at the least should be in the enemy lines. And don't forget, if Blood Furies were somehow within range of the entire enemy force they would still stay mostly unmolested.

I did never agree to that.I still say that griffins arent in the enemy lines.And the keyword you wrote there is mostly.

Incompetent Sylvan player somehow managed not to plug in that hole quickly with his other units (eg. War Dancers). It's highly unlikely you'll block the Hunters for even a turn with only Gated units. You might arrive there alright, but all your summoned creatures would be dead before the Hunters move (most of the time).

If it takes all your summons to enable your real units to reach(and eliminate),that means that the hunters are the highest threat,thus eliminating them in this maner is actually a good thing.But if it really costs you all your summons to punch a whole,that means that you will loose no matter what you do.

Happens only if the Haven player actually deployed the Paladins. If you're fighting Master Hunters you're better off deploying only the Imperial Griffins and doing Battle Dive. And then there's the fact that it takes quite a number of Master Hunters to kill a Paladin at long range. By then Archangels would be on hand to resurrect them.

Incidentally if even one Master Hunter stack moved first, you would lose quite a few Blood Furies.

Double standards?If you wont deploy the paladins in fear you may loose them,deploying furries would be the most stupid thing to do in such a situation.

It's really easy to use Paladins. Just move around the cursor and pick the angle from which you deal maximum damage. Something wrong with that?

So?You use the furries in the same way.Just move around the cursor and pick a target that youll deal maximum damage to.Even more easier then with paladins because you dont have to care about the angle.

No, they're too slow to be killers, and require powerful magics to support them. They're not fodder either but they're not killers.

Here you say they are killers:

@Your definition of Supporters: I can't understand. If you have a powerful creature that can 'eradicate enemies melee units' then surely you have a powerful creature that fulfils the role of the 'killer'. Right?

Oh, don't embarass me I wasn't...shall we say...concentrating that much when I made that post, having devoted too much energy to another forum. But while I wrote with half my mind elsewhere, this might not make my words unsalvagable. The Warlock still needs to learn Sorcery, Logistics and (probably) Enlightenment. That makes:

Expert Attack = 3 levels
Battle Frenzy = 1 level
Tactics = 1 level
Expert Destructive Magic (no way the Warlock will go with just Advanced, even if Meteor Shower is level 4) = 3 levels
Master of Storms = 1 level
Expert Luck = 3 levels
Warlock's Luck (obvious choice here) = 2 levels
Expert Sorcery = 3 levels
Magic Insight / Arcane Training / Mana Regeneration = 3 levels
Expert Logistics = 3 levels
Expert Enlightment = 3 levels
Intelligence = 1 level
Empowered Spells = 1 level
Elemental Vision = 1 level
Expert Irresistable Magic = 2 levels

Taken together, this is a lot of levels indeed. Even assuming Witch Huts and so on, it would still take more than 20 levels. It's unlikely any Warlock will be able to take them all. He might not even be offered the skills to learn. I think something will have to give.

First,of the above,inteligence,enlightment,elemental vision and sorcery are not your priorities.First,it depends on who youll fight and what youll use.If you focus purelly on spells,you can substitute the attack with sorcery.I focused on attack though,because we are discussing furries here.But thats not the path you must follow or perish.Furthermore,as someone mentioned before,focusing on light and resurrection or summoning and phoenix can also be a good build for warlock,even if you skip destruction and empowered spells.

Druids and Mages, yes. Water Elementals generally don't appear as neutrals (I don't know why, but that's what I've observed).

They do.I fought lots of them.Quite irritating.

As for Grim Raiders, it generally doesn't happen (at least, it hasn't happened to me thus far). Place the Paladins behind some natural obstacle and as far from the middle of the map as possible and you'll generally be able to avoid the Grim Raider's initiatial charge. Then after the Marksmen fire destroy the rest.

Very situational.Who says therell be convinient obstacles?Who says the raiders will be divided in such a way you can cover from them all?What if the only obstacle is a 2 space in the middle,and you get two stacks on both sides of it?Youll loose a paladin for sure.

That's why I say something has to give. DaemianLucifer can't have Tactics, Battle Frenzy, +5 luck and a 330 damage Meteor Shower all at the same time, just like whoever he's facing can't have all his favoured skills available. The critical skills should be there (for Dungeon, probably Destructive Magic and Sorcery, perhaps Enlightenment and another magic school) but the luxury skills probably won't have been learned yet.

With a level 20 you can have expert logistics,destruction,attack,luck and IM,with frenzy,tactics,one master(depending on the spells you get),warlocks luck,empowered spells and TA.You can also forego TA for elemental vision or for sorcery,or for something other,if you wish.

[Banedon]

I'd say that picking up three schools and being reasonably developed in them (=Expert Destruction, Advanced Attack, Advanced/Expert Luck) aren't too far out. Sorcery is good for Warlocks, but IMO, Warlock's luck route is better (especially with some luck-boostinig artifact, in which case the expected damage outcome from spells is roughly the same).

But then something would still have to give. Enlightenment, Logistics, Teleporting Assault - something will have to give.

The same reason why paladins wouldnt be the only ones targeted if they had griffins and angels next to them.And griffins would change a thing if they were there.They wont be the primary target,but they would be a target nevertheless.

Griffins change nothing; the main stacks capable of inflicting damage would continue to target the Paladins until they cease to be a significant force on the battlefield. Angels change things because there's a fine chance they're even more dangerous than Paladins (and even if they are not, they're probably the second-strongest stack on the battlefield). Blood Furies will not be targetted for a long, long while - the Black Dragons, Grim Raiders and Shadow Matriaches are all stronger than them.

How does this apply? Look at all the killers I classified. If you're fighting:

Haven - target Angels / Paladins / Marksmen, depending on relative numbers.
Necropolis - target Skeleton Archers / Spectral Dragons / Wraiths, again depending on relative numbers.
Inferno - Pit Lords and Archdevils.
Sylvan - Druid Elders and Master Hunters, with Emerald Dragons next on the list.
Dungeon - Black Dragons and Shadow Matriaches are the primary targets; Grim Raiders, Blood Furies and Deep Hydras next.
Academy - I didn't classify these, but the order is quite obvious. Titans, Rakshasha and Archmages take top priority.

This is it. Blood Furies aren't dangerous killers and hence they are not targetted. They are finesse, and this is the proof. The killers are always targetted first; the finesse and supporting creatures next.

Depends only on luck,not the player skill.

It depends only on player skill as far as I can tell. Explain how it depends on luck.

If the stack is large enough to survive more than two lightning bolts,then it would surelly survive more than two meteor showers,and then Id surelly not use it on them.Imbilizing them would be a priority,thus lightning bolt and stun,or ice bolt and freeze,depending on what I have.

If Sylvan is unfortunate enough to leave their Master Hunters open such that Meteor Shower hits only the Master Hunters, you don't even need to cast spells. Just rush them and take them down.

Nope,dragons and raiders dont add diagonals because you put them on the sides of furries.As for cerberi,if coupled with an obstacle,they shorten your movement by one,without that obstacle,its half of a square.

You cannot decide where your opponent puts his creatures. After the Black Dragons and Grim Raiders go over to the opposing side, then they will start blocking the Blood Furies.

No,I was refering to the dragons in the town example.

As for that about griffins,it doesnt require your army to be split in order to block a few troops with large griffins.

Then your ridiculous example proved nothing because I pointed out that seige battles do not happen and hence Black Dragons do not need to be supported.

As for the Griffins, yes, it does. Give me an example where it doesn't.

With such a build,no you cant do that.

Attack and Battle Frenzy doesn't double your damage either.

Frenzy+tactics+expert attack=5 skills,warlocks luck and expert luck=5 skills,expet distruction+1 master=4 skills,empowered spells+expert IM=4 skills.Total is 18 skills.Quite reasonable at level 15.

And no Sorcery, no Logistics and no Enlightenment. Quite reasonable at level 15 maybe but your Warlock would be subpar.

I did never agree to that.I still say that griffins arent in the enemy lines.And the keyword you wrote there is mostly.

The Griffins would be there because they would be in range after their initial battle dive. 'Mostly'? I meant 'mostly' as in nothing except your opponent's finesse creatures that are too valuable to waste or by stray fire, for example Grim Raiders who cannot attack the Black Dragons because their retaliation remains unabsorbed or Pit Lords who cast Meteor Shower to hit them and the Grim Raiders. They are too minor to be a main target; too major to be left completely unattended to. This only adds to the argument that they are finesse creatures. A real killer (eg. the Master Hunters) would come under attack at once.

If it takes all your summons to enable your real units to reach(and eliminate),that means that the hunters are the highest threat,thus eliminating them in this maner is actually a good thing.But if it really costs you all your summons to punch a whole,that means that you will loose no matter what you do.

It is going to take all your summons to punch a hole in my opinion, and you may not actually punch a hole. You only exhaust the defenses, reveal some weak points such that you can rush a creature through (eg. kill all remaining War Dancers in a strike with the Nightmares, rush the Familiars through and block the Master Hunters). The summons take time to act and to arrive, and Sylvan's ranged fire is really murderous.

Double standards?If you wont deploy the paladins in fear you may loose them,deploying furries would be the most stupid thing to do in such a situation.

Not at all. You can choose not to deploy Paladins because by the time you get them it's late in the game and you have plenty of firepower at your control (in the form of massed Marksmen). You cannot choose not to deploy the Blood Furies early. They are your damage source, and if you do not use them you will suffer lots of Assassins / Scouts / spellpoints casualties or even fail to win the battle entirely.

So?You use the furries in the same way.Just move around the cursor and pick a target that youll deal maximum damage to.Even more easier then with paladins because you dont have to care about the angle.

You have to whether or not to avoid attacking that turn altogether and instead maneuver, and if you decide to maneuver you also have to decide in which direction you run in such that you don't get cornered. You cannot be serious that it takes equal skill to use Paladins and Blood Furies, can you?

Here you say they are killers:

I did not say they are killers. I said they do not fit your definition of supporter. They can't be killers because of their atrocious initiative. Earth Elementals deal good damage, but it doesn't make them a killer.

First,of the above,inteligence,enlightment,elemental vision and sorcery are not your priorities.First,it depends on who youll fight and what youll use.If you focus purelly on spells,you can substitute the attack with sorcery.I focused on attack though,because we are discussing furries here.But thats not the path you must follow or perish.Furthermore,as someone mentioned before,focusing on light and resurrection or summoning and phoenix can also be a good build for warlock,even if you skip destruction and empowered spells.

Giving up on Intelligence - I can't believe in a Warlock that survives with 20 spellpoints. If nothing else, Intelligence greatly increases your spellcasting abilities and allows you to use mana more freely (= take less casualties).

Giving up on Enlightenment - I can't believe in any hero giving up on +10 to all stats at Expert Enlightenment and level 20, either.

Giving up on Elemental Vision - It takes only one level to learn this skill and it adds significant amounts of damage. You might not take this but I certainly would.

You can take the other magic trees if you want, though I find Destructive Magic to be the most effective of all. But it doesn't change the fact that while it doesn't require a great deal of levels to have everything you mentioned to be present, it takes a great deal of levels to actually be effective.

They do.I fought lots of them.Quite irritating.

I never have however. The only time I've seen them as neutrals is in C4M3 when they were guarding a Lighthouse.

Very situational.Who says therell be convinient obstacles?Who says the raiders will be divided in such a way you can cover from them all?What if the only obstacle is a 2 space in the middle,and you get two stacks on both sides of it?Youll loose a paladin for sure.

Who says you won't? I've not performed any research or studies, but I've found there to be a much greater chance of cover of some sort than there is without. If the only obstacle is a 2-space in the middle place the Paladins at one side and the Marksmen at the other, with accompanying bait. If one hit from a Grim Raider stack's enough to kill a Paladin then you're fighting a (really) large number of Grim Raiders as well as so there's a great chance you'll have Tactics and / or Archangels present.

Also, do remember that Paladins have a higher initiative than Grim Raiders and so all this is already coloured by the 'it takes some misfortune to happen' taint.

With a level 20 you can have expert logistics,destruction,attack,luck and IM,with frenzy,tactics,one master(depending on the spells you get),warlocks luck,empowered spells and TA.You can also forego TA for elemental vision or for sorcery,or for something other,if you wish.

Let's not focus on what you have, but what you missed. Enlightenment and its associated buff to stats is the main one. The other is Sorcery. It doesn't matter if you have tremendous damage with Implosion if you can hardly cast it, right?

[DaemianLucifer]

But then something would still have to give. Enlightenment, Logistics, Teleporting Assault - something will have to give.

TA is really important only if you are a hydra player.While I find logistics an essential skill,many have argued that you can still dominate without it,so I wont question that.While enlightment is a nice one to have,I dont consider it essential,thus it can be skipped.

Griffins change nothing; the main stacks capable of inflicting damage would continue to target the Paladins until they cease to be a significant force on the battlefield. Angels change things because there's a fine chance they're even more dangerous than Paladins (and even if they are not, they're probably the second-strongest stack on the battlefield). Blood Furies will not be targetted for a long, long while - the Black Dragons, Grim Raiders and Shadow Matriaches are all stronger than them.

Griffins will change a thing actually.While they wont be targeted by the main force,they will be there to distract a few minor ones.That 1 or 2 paladins that would die if griffins werent there may make the difference.But the fact stays that paladins die quickly because they are being targeted by the whole enemies army.

It depends only on player skill as far as I can tell. Explain how it depends on luck.

Emeralds next to treants.Paladins attack emeralds from the angle opposite the treants.Griffins land next to them.Treants cannot even move,but have to attack the griffins.There,pure luck,nothing more.The chances of griffins landing there might be 0.0001%,but they still arent 0%.

If Sylvan is unfortunate enough to leave their Master Hunters open such that Meteor Shower hits only the Master Hunters, you don't even need to cast spells. Just rush them and take them down.

Id rather stun that 150 stack of master hunters,then killing 50 of them with 60 blade dancers and 3 treants.Youd rather kill those dancers and treants with hunters and have the remaining 100 attack you?

You cannot decide where your opponent puts his creatures. After the Black Dragons and Grim Raiders go over to the opposing side, then they will start blocking the Blood Furies.

But you can decide where to position your creatures,both in the initial placement and on the opposing side.

Then your ridiculous example proved nothing because I pointed out that seige battles do not happen and hence Black Dragons do not need to be supported.

Fine,then your ridiculous example proovrd nothing,because I point out that no one will sacrifice his entire army to kill a single stack.

As for the Griffins, yes, it does. Give me an example where it doesn't.

1

I just gave you one example above.

Attack and Battle Frenzy doesn't double your damage either.

Attack increases your attack by 30%,and frenzy gives you +1.So against angels,your 50 furries do 130-173 damage,260-346 with luck.So two attacks with luck of 5 do 390-519 damage,with an average of 454,which is more than 440.Oh,wait.I forgot to factor the attack.Sorry.50 furries with expert attack do 169-226 damage,338-452 with luck,so two attacks with luck of 5 do 507-678,with an average of 592 damage.

And no Sorcery, no Logistics and no Enlightenment. Quite reasonable at level 15 maybe but your Warlock would be subpar.

For a warlock that focuses on creatures its more than a reasonable build.Sorcery wont be his necessity because he will use spells as support,not as a main weapon.Even further,such a warlock may be better of without destruction,no matter how ridiculous that sounds.

The Griffins would be there because they would be in range after their initial battle dive. 'Mostly'? I meant 'mostly' as in nothing except your opponent's finesse creatures that are too valuable to waste or by stray fire, for example Grim Raiders who cannot attack the Black Dragons because their retaliation remains unabsorbed or Pit Lords who cast Meteor Shower to hit them and the Grim Raiders. They are too minor to be a main target; too major to be left completely unattended to. This only adds to the argument that they are finesse creatures. A real killer (eg. the Master Hunters) would come under attack at once.

At least one creature would target the furries if they were in range.Even if it is the lonelly demon,it still will be more than what they do when furries are out of range.

It is going to take all your summons to punch a hole in my opinion, and you may not actually punch a hole. You only exhaust the defenses, reveal some weak points such that you can rush a creature through (eg. kill all remaining War Dancers in a strike with the Nightmares, rush the Familiars through and block the Master Hunters). The summons take time to act and to arrive, and Sylvan's ranged fire is really murderous.

And again you are going of track.This started by me just showing you an alternate way to charging a sylvan.

Not at all. You can choose not to deploy Paladins because by the time you get them it's late in the game and you have plenty of firepower at your control (in the form of massed Marksmen). You cannot choose not to deploy the Blood Furies early. They are your damage source, and if you do not use them you will suffer lots of Assassins / Scouts / spellpoints casualties or even fail to win the battle entirely.

But you wouldnt be deploying assassins but only minotaurs.With a single AoE spell(lets say ice circle or fireball),and one more spell you can clear the ranged creatures using no more than 5 stacks of minotaurs(probably less because your hero will go sooner).So if you take a small company of minotaurs with your furries and assassins youll have no problem in the begining.

You have to whether or not to avoid attacking that turn altogether and instead maneuver, and if you decide to maneuver you also have to decide in which direction you run in such that you don't get cornered. You cannot be serious that it takes equal skill to use Paladins and Blood Furies, can you?

Yet you advocate that no one will attack the furries.If no one will attack them,then why would you manouver them?

I did not say they are killers. I said they do not fit your definition of supporter. They can't be killers because of their atrocious initiative. Earth Elementals deal good damage, but it doesn't make them a killer.

So,they are not killers,not fodder,not finesse,not slow killers and not supporters.Then what the hell are they?Casters?

Giving up on Intelligence - I can't believe in a Warlock that survives with 20 spellpoints. If nothing else, Intelligence greatly increases your spellcasting abilities and allows you to use mana more freely (= take less casualties).

Wall of intrigue+artifacts+map locations and youll have at least 5 knowledge(if unlucky).So yes,a warlock can do quite good without inteligence.

Giving up on Enlightenment - I can't believe in any hero giving up on +10 to all stats at Expert Enlightenment and level 20, either.

So?I cant believe that someone can win a map without logistics,yet people can do that.You find enlightment a must,I dont.

Giving up on Elemental Vision - It takes only one level to learn this skill and it adds significant amounts of damage. You might not take this but I certainly would.

Its not really that significant because its luck dependant(placement of your enemy and their elements).You can easilly fight a battle where your elemental vision will trigger once or twice at the most.

You can take the other magic trees if you want, though I find Destructive Magic to be the most effective of all. But it doesn't change the fact that while it doesn't require a great deal of levels to have everything you mentioned to be present, it takes a great deal of levels to actually be effective.

15 levels is not that great a deal if you focus on that specific path.

I never have however. The only time I've seen them as neutrals is in C4M3 when they were guarding a Lighthouse.

Just because something happened to you doesnt mean it happens to everyone.I fought them almost in every map since the last haven map.

Who says you won't? I've not performed any research or studies, but I've found there to be a much greater chance of cover of some sort than there is without. If the only obstacle is a 2-space in the middle place the Paladins at one side and the Marksmen at the other, with accompanying bait. If one hit from a Grim Raider stack's enough to kill a Paladin then you're fighting a (really) large number of Grim Raiders as well as so there's a great chance you'll have Tactics and / or Archangels present.

5 raiders is not an extremelly large stack.And thats all the enemy needs.If luck triggers,its 3 raiders.So yes,if you are unlucky you will loose a paladin even against neutral raiders.

Also, do remember that Paladins have a higher initiative than Grim Raiders and so all this is already coloured by the 'it takes some misfortune to happen' taint.

Yes,but raiders can still act first if you are unfortunate.

Let's not focus on what you have, but what you missed. Enlightenment and its associated buff to stats is the main one. The other is Sorcery. It doesn't matter if you have tremendous damage with Implosion if you can hardly cast it, right?

I already said above that we are discussing a warlock focused on creatures.A rare thing true,but not an impossible one.Such a warlock can fare extremelly well without sorcery.

[Gaidal Cain]

Giving up on Intelligence - I can't believe in a Warlock that survives with 20 spellpoints. If nothing else, Intelligence greatly increases your spellcasting abilities and allows you to use mana more freely (= take less casualties).

And I can't see him surviving with 30 either...

Giving up on Enlightenment - I can't believe in any hero giving up on +10 to all stats at Expert Enlightenment and level 20, either.

Stat points won't be worth that much if you won't have abilities to use them with.

The other is Sorcery. It doesn't matter if you have tremendous damage with Implosion if you can hardly cast it, right?

Expected spell damage with Expert Sorcery is lower than expected damage with Warlock's luck and +5 luck, and then you add creature damage on that. Sorcery is better if you want to make use of stun or freeze effects though.

[Banedon]

TA is really important only if you are a hydra player.While I find logistics an essential skill,many have argued that you can still dominate without it,so I wont question that.While enlightment is a nice one to have,I dont consider it essential,thus it can be skipped.

If you don't use Hydras you're not going to have the units to deal with Ranged creatures. The only really viable strategy so far has been to deploy the Hydras and then keep defending with them. You need Logistics for Teleporting Assault, and giving up Enlightenment is really a courageous thing. It's +10 to all stats as well as extra experience. The +10 to Spell Power boosts Destructive magic while the +10 to Knowledge boosts your spell points. Definitely a devastating school. You can give up on Enlightenment, but if your opponent didn't he'll be higher level and accentuate his advantage.

Griffins will change a thing actually.While they wont be targeted by the main force,they will be there to distract a few minor ones.That 1 or 2 paladins that would die if griffins werent there may make the difference.But the fact stays that paladins die quickly because they are being targeted by the whole enemies army.

Which minor ones would target the Griffins? I can't think of any stack except for possibly a blocked Ranged shooter who would attack the Griffins rather than the Paladins (or waiting). You mention the 'lonely demons'. The lonely Demons would be absorbing retaliation from the Black Dragons, not attacking the Blood Furies.

Yes the Paladins die quickly because they are targetted by the entire enemy army. Doesn't that lend weight to the argument that they are dangerous killers? No the Blood Furies do not die quickly because they aren't targetted even if they are within range. Doesn't that lend weight to the argument that they are not dangerous killers, or killers at all?

Emeralds next to treants.Paladins attack emeralds from the angle opposite the treants.Griffins land next to them.Treants cannot even move,but have to attack the griffins.There,pure luck,nothing more.The chances of griffins landing there might be 0.0001%,but they still arent 0%.

Problems:

1. Attacking Emerald Dragons first in a battle against Sylvan is a risky choice. The Emerald Dragons aren't going to be the most dangerous stack on the battlefield until really late-game anyway.
2. Attacking Emerald Dragons with the Paladins places the Paladins within full shot damage from the Master Hunters. Not good at all.
3. Emerald Dragons move faster than Ancient Treants. They'd move, double-hit the Paladins and Griffins (taking advantage of the Griffins weaker retaliation; this move would seriously hurt you) AND free the Ancient Treants to bind the Paladins.

Id rather stun that 150 stack of master hunters,then killing 50 of them with 60 blade dancers and 3 treants.Youd rather kill those dancers and treants with hunters and have the remaining 100 attack you?

Depends. After all, the stunning is not permanent, and if you cast Lightning Bolt on them they may move before your hero moves next and you gain no advantage. If I have my fast creatures - the Blood Furies (here they play the suiciding role, sarificing themselves to stop the Hunters from firing - more weight to the Blood-Fury-as-finesse argument, since you won't be tossing killer units away so wantonly), the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons on hand to quickly destroy any War Dancers than remain and block the Master Hunters, stunning them may not be the best choice.

But you can decide where to position your creatures,both in the initial placement and on the opposing side.

So the Blood Furies get one unblocked move. So the Black Dragons and Grim Raiders get to hit their preferred targets. Now if the Blood Furies get blocked they might not be able to hit anything anymore.

This point is really minor and should not be pursued anymore.

Fine,then your ridiculous example proovrd nothing,because I point out that no one will sacrifice his entire army to kill a single stack.

It proves that Blood Furies can't stay alive if they are targetted. For all their initiative and hit-and-run moves, they stay alive simply because they are not attacked. This puts quite a few of your arguments in error.

Attack increases your attack by 30%,and frenzy gives you +1.So against angels,your 50 furries do 130-173 damage,260-346 with luck.So two attacks with luck of 5 do 390-519 damage,with an average of 454,which is more than 440.Oh,wait.I forgot to factor the attack.Sorry.50 furries with expert attack do 169-226 damage,338-452 with luck,so two attacks with luck of 5 do 507-678,with an average of 592 damage.

Well since you've so many skills, let's factor in Defense, which the Knight will have if he's up against Warlock. Expert Defense decreases your damage by the same 30% that you increase it with Attack. Back down to one killed every two turns.

For a warlock that focuses on creatures its more than a reasonable build.Sorcery wont be his necessity because he will use spells as support,not as a main weapon.Even further,such a warlock may be better of without destruction,no matter how ridiculous that sounds.

Building a Warlock to focus on creatures is foolhardy. The Warlock reigns with his mighty SpellPower, not anything else. If you want to use spells as support to creatures (eg. Mass Confusion, Mass Endurance etc) you're better off using Academy. Same applies to a Warlock not using Destructive Magic (unless it's Summoning Magic).

And again you are going of track.This started by me just showing you an alternate way to charging a sylvan.

It's the normal way actually. Inferno Gates and then charges. But you are the one going off track. So long as Inferno charges (as it must eventually) Sylvan will be getting in shots at full damage, which means the Master Hunters will be doing significantly more damage than the Blood Furies, which refutes your point.

But you wouldnt be deploying assassins but only minotaurs.With a single AoE spell(lets say ice circle or fireball),and one more spell you can clear the ranged creatures using no more than 5 stacks of minotaurs(probably less because your hero will go sooner).So if you take a small company of minotaurs with your furries and assassins youll have no problem in the begining.

It takes time to build the Minotaur dwelling. Dungeon must build the Mage Guild, the Blood Fury dwelling and the Hall early. You can't deploy only Minotaurs so quickly, and those that you can deploy (you'll only have a few, unless you run into the Minotaur specialist early) will die fast. I quite remember playing Necropolis and doing the same strategy, albeit with Zombies. On paper it sounds like a perfect method. In practice the stacks that I fought continuously quickly whittled down the Zombie numbers.

Yet you advocate that no one will attack the furries.If no one will attack them,then why would you manouver them?

This is against neutrals, not another player. Don't forget, this part of the discussion stemmed from my saying that Blood Furies rank high on the AI priority list and preserving them against neutrals is a tough task.

So,they are not killers,not fodder,not finesse,not slow killers and not supporters.Then what the hell are they?Casters?

Something else. My original classification was imperfect. If you must stick to it I would give them fodder status (just barely ahead of killer status, and seriously, none of the groups fit them well). But it's imperfect. Hydras need their own group, as do Blood Furies (but in this case, classification under the original scheme is much easier, and they can be classified almost without doubt into 'finesse').

Wall of intrigue+artifacts+map locations and youll have at least 5 knowledge(if unlucky).So yes,a warlock can do quite good without inteligence.

Wall of Intrigue = rare. Artifacts = guarded, and may not suit your task. Eldritch Well (or whatever it's called) depends on the map. If getting spell points were so easy then I can't see the fuss over MMR being tough to use early-game. See the MMR topic itself; one of the original strikes against it was that the map it was used on - Mystic Vale - had a lot of those mana-replenishing wells.

Its not really that significant because its luck dependant(placement of your enemy and their elements).You can easilly fight a battle where your elemental vision will trigger once or twice at the most.

Or you can fight a battle and the extra damage becomes critical. I don't know; I've not played sufficiently much Dungeon to be sure. But then this is still a minor point.

Just because something happened to you doesnt mean it happens to everyone.I fought them almost in every map since the last haven map.

Well then I've played 20 maps of the campaign and several multiplayer games as well. I've not seen them. This point is again minor and should not be pursued.

5 raiders is not an extremelly large stack.And thats all the enemy needs.If luck triggers,its 3 raiders.So yes,if you are unlucky you will loose a paladin even against neutral raiders.

5 Grim Raiders kill one Paladin in an attack = 1 Grim Raider deal 20 damage? Really? I find this hard to believe. I tried it out. 30 Grim Raiders under Sinitar (7/9 in Attack and Defense) deal 302-604 damage against Paladins, or 10-20 per stack.

I stand by my original statement: you should never lose a Paladin to neutrals, and if you have to lose one, there's a good chance you should not have fought it in the first place. Paladins are simply too valuable to lose.

Yes,but raiders can still act first if you are unfortunate.

And Blood Furies against any Ranged creature would result in losses if you're unfortunate. They cannot be preserved easily. Evidence they are finesse.

And I can't see him surviving with 30 either...

Yes, he can. The extra 10 mana helps him cast two / three extra Eldritch Arrows early, which can turn the tides of battle. But let's not focus there. Intelligence has late-game purposes as well. Suppose now a Warlock with 100 Spell Points. He can cast 3 Empowered Implosions. Now give him Intelligence. That's an extra two Empowered Implosions - a significant difference.

Stat points won't be worth that much if you won't have abilities to use them with.

You're level 20; you don't have Enlightenment alone. Destructive Magic for example would be powered up by Enlightenment.

Expected spell damage with Expert Sorcery is lower than expected damage with Warlock's luck and +5 luck, and then you add creature damage on that. Sorcery is better if you want to make use of stun or freeze effects though.

On the other hand, you spend less levels acquiring Sorcery than you would Warlock's Luck, and Sorcery speeds up your casting, allowing you to counter your opponent's protective spells better (eg. if you can cast two Empowered Implosions before he can protect his two most important stacks with Magical Immunity, you've gained).

[DaemianLucifer]

If you don't use Hydras you're not going to have the units to deal with Ranged creatures. The only really viable strategy so far has been to deploy the Hydras and then keep defending with them.

Really?The only one?Shows how much you know about dungeon.

Boxed ranged units - kill with dragons,or MS,or one of the bolts.
Loose ranged units - kill/block with raiders and or furries,or one of the bolts.

Hydras can be used without TA in the late battle when they remain the last undistructable bastion,or early game with TA.But saying that you must have TA to counter enemy range units is plain wrong.

You need Logistics for Teleporting Assault, and giving up Enlightenment is really a courageous thing. It's +10 to all stats as well as extra experience. The +10 to Spell Power boosts Destructive magic while the +10 to Knowledge boosts your spell points. Definitely a devastating school. You can give up on Enlightenment, but if your opponent didn't he'll be higher level and accentuate his advantage.

In the MMR map you mentioned warlock had enlightment as well,but he still had his afivefive kicked.And hard.However,if that warlock focused on abilities instead of skills(summoning? ),it would be a different story.But I wont discuss that one here.I mentioned it there,and it got argued,and it is still being argued.

Yes the Paladins die quickly because they are targetted by the entire enemy army. Doesn't that lend weight to the argument that they are dangerous killers? No the Blood Furies do not die quickly because they aren't targetted even if they are within range. Doesn't that lend weight to the argument that they are not dangerous killers, or killers at all?

Wrong.If furries were alone there like paladins were,theyd die fast as well.If paladins had hit and return and griffins and angels were in the front lines,youd loose griffins and anglels long before the paladins.

1. Attacking Emerald Dragons first in a battle against Sylvan is a risky choice. The Emerald Dragons aren't going to be the most dangerous stack on the battlefield until really late-game anyway.

Depends on the number of emeralds youll kill with the initial attack,and thir initial number.

2. Attacking Emerald Dragons with the Paladins places the Paladins within full shot damage from the Master Hunters. Not good at all.

You dont have a choice but to charge sylvan.Your words,with witch I agree.Besides,paladins are meant to strike,die,get resurrected,then continue the rampage.

3. Emerald Dragons move faster than Ancient Treants. They'd move, double-hit the Paladins and Griffins (taking advantage of the Griffins weaker retaliation; this move would seriously hurt you) AND free the Ancient Treants to bind the Paladins.

Not really.Griffins will land after the emeralds act,and treants will then have to either wait or attack the griffins.

Depends. After all, the stunning is not permanent, and if you cast Lightning Bolt on them they may move before your hero moves next and you gain no advantage. If I have my fast creatures - the Blood Furies (here they play the suiciding role, sarificing themselves to stop the Hunters from firing - more weight to the Blood-Fury-as-finesse argument, since you won't be tossing killer units away so wantonly), the Grim Raiders and Black Dragons on hand to quickly destroy any War Dancers than remain and block the Master Hunters, stunning them may not be the best choice.

One level in sorcery allows you to stun the hunters enough for your hero to act before them the next time.And whenever I fought sylvan,it was always hunters that died long before the dancers.I dont remember ever even having the chance to block them,let alon actually do that.Either kill them with range units,with AoE spells,or with breath attacks.

So the Blood Furies get one unblocked move. So the Black Dragons and Grim Raiders get to hit their preferred targets. Now if the Blood Furies get blocked they might not be able to hit anything anymore.

Blood furries get blocked very rarelly.And in those few cases you use their 16 initiative to quickly find a much better possition from which to continue their rampage.

It proves that Blood Furies can't stay alive if they are targetted. For all their initiative and hit-and-run moves, they stay alive simply because they are not attacked. This puts quite a few of your arguments in error.

Using your logic of argumenting:
No it doesnt,because that thing never happens.

Well since you've so many skills, let's factor in Defense, which the Knight will have if he's up against Warlock. Expert Defense decreases your damage by the same 30% that you increase it with Attack. Back down to one killed every two turns.

I made a small calculation error with the attack up there,but its not important.With expert defense factored in,50 furries do 105-140,210-280 with luck.So two attacks with luck of 5 deal 367 damage on average,which is 1 and a half angel.True,its not 2 in 2,but it is 3 in 4.Now tell me,how can a second tier unit that can kill 3 7th tier units in 4 attacks(not to mention that while furries execute these four attacks,the angels will act only three times)not be a killer?

Building a Warlock to focus on creatures is foolhardy. The Warlock reigns with his mighty SpellPower, not anything else. If you want to use spells as support to creatures (eg. Mass Confusion, Mass Endurance etc) you're better off using Academy. Same applies to a Warlock not using Destructive Magic (unless it's Summoning Magic).

First,we are arguing only warlocks creatures here,thus even though it is rare,we should discuss a warlock focused on creatures.Doing the opposite would be like discussing artificier on a map without a town.Second,even when focused on creatures,the warlock can still use destruction magic,utilizing masters of fire storms and ice to the fullest.

It's the normal way actually. Inferno Gates and then charges. But you are the one going off track. So long as Inferno charges (as it must eventually) Sylvan will be getting in shots at full damage, which means the Master Hunters will be doing significantly more damage than the Blood Furies, which refutes your point.

Not really.Blind,puppet master,frenzy,slow,confusion.All those are ways to neutralize the hunters,even if for a single round.And lets not forget what the succubi and pitlords will do here while you wait for summons to arive.Furthermore,you will be forcing sylvan to charge you,thus opening a path to your gated units.So the only full strike hunters get will be against gated units.

It takes time to build the Minotaur dwelling. Dungeon must build the Mage Guild, the Blood Fury dwelling and the Hall early. You can't deploy only Minotaurs so quickly, and those that you can deploy (you'll only have a few, unless you run into the Minotaur specialist early) will die fast. I quite remember playing Necropolis and doing the same strategy, albeit with Zombies. On paper it sounds like a perfect method. In practice the stacks that I fought continuously quickly whittled down the Zombie numbers.

Serriously,if you are forced to attack druids,or hunters or mages with just your initial units,you are screwed,no matter who you play.Only necro has some small chances there.

This is against neutrals, not another player. Don't forget, this part of the discussion stemmed from my saying that Blood Furies rank high on the AI priority list and preserving them against neutrals is a tough task.

No,against neutrals you dont maneuver,you wipe them out before they react.Against a hero,you either wipe him out before he acts,or you let him sacrifize his whole army so he can kill the furries.Thats how the battles against the AI happen.No maneuvering at all.

Something else. My original classification was imperfect. If you must stick to it I would give them fodder status (just barely ahead of killer status, and seriously, none of the groups fit them well). But it's imperfect. Hydras need their own group, as do Blood Furies (but in this case, classification under the original scheme is much easier, and they can be classified almost without doubt into 'finesse').

I gave you a good classification for them.The same one that can hold squires and minotaurs there.

Wall of Intrigue = rare. Artifacts = guarded, and may not suit your task. Eldritch Well (or whatever it's called) depends on the map. If getting spell points were so easy then I can't see the fuss over MMR being tough to use early-game. See the MMR topic itself; one of the original strikes against it was that the map it was used on - Mystic Vale - had a lot of those mana-replenishing wells.

Who sayd Ill be using wells?And here,again,we are discussing a creature oriented warlock.5 knowledge is more then enough for him.This is not a warlock that will kill the enemy with numerous empowered implosions,this is a warlock that will use only 2 level spells to hinder the enemy while his creatures do the actual work.

Or you can fight a battle and the extra damage becomes critical. I don't know; I've not played sufficiently much Dungeon to be sure. But then this is still a minor point.

Then stop pulling luck arguments.Luck can go both ways.

5 Grim Raiders kill one Paladin in an attack = 1 Grim Raider deal 20 damage? Really? I find this hard to believe. I tried it out. 30 Grim Raiders under Sinitar (7/9 in Attack and Defense) deal 302-604 damage against Paladins, or 10-20 per stack.

A grim raider without a hero does 21 damage to a paladin at full charge(negates defense completelly),and thats without luck.Your original argument was that if unlucky,youll loose furries.Well so what?If you are unlucky,youll use paladins as well,even against the neutrals.So,once more,stop pulling luck arguments,they go both ways.

I stand by my original statement: you should never lose a Paladin to neutrals, and if you have to lose one, there's a good chance you should not have fought it in the first place. Paladins are simply too valuable to lose.

Same goes for furries.

And Blood Furies against any Ranged creature would result in losses if you're unfortunate. They cannot be preserved easily. Evidence they are finesse.

No,evidence that luck has to much to do in this game.

Yes, he can. The extra 10 mana helps him cast two / three extra Eldritch Arrows early, which can turn the tides of battle. But let's not focus there. Intelligence has late-game purposes as well. Suppose now a Warlock with 100 Spell Points. He can cast 3 Empowered Implosions. Now give him Intelligence. That's an extra two Empowered Implosions - a significant difference.

You're level 20; you don't have Enlightenment alone. Destructive Magic for example would be powered up by Enlightenment.

On the other hand, you spend less levels acquiring Sorcery than you would Warlock's Luck, and Sorcery speeds up your casting, allowing you to counter your opponent's protective spells better (eg. if you can cast two Empowered Implosions before he can protect his two most important stacks with Magical Immunity, you've gained).

This show that you know nothing about playing a warlock.IM is not such an awesome skill because it lets you do half damage to otherwise immune blackies,or to MIed creatures,its awesome because no matter what your enemy does,no matter how hard it will pump his MR,you can always freeze/stun his crucial units long enough to kill them before they can do serious damage.Warlock doesnt depend on the number of times he can cast empowered implosion or empowered MS.Yes,its awesome when you can deal a couple of thousands damage to three or four enemies stacks with a single spell,but its even more awesome when you can completelly remove the strongest stack your enemy has using only 8 mana.

[Gaidal Cain]

[Enlightenment is] +10 to all stats as well as extra experience. The +10 to Spell Power boosts Destructive magic while the +10 to Knowledge boosts your spell points. Definitely a devastating school. You can give up on Enlightenment, but if your opponent didn't he'll be higher level and accentuate his advantage.

What the? Enlightenemnt is 10 points, distributed among all the skills along the same percentages as normal. It's certainly not +10 to ALL skills. No skill in H5 is that über.

Wall of intrigue+artifacts+map locations and youll have at least 5 knowledge(if unlucky).So yes,a warlock can do quite good without inteligence.

Wall of Intrigue = rare. Artifacts = guarded, and may not suit your task. Eldritch Well (or whatever it's called) depends on the map. If getting spell points were so easy then I can't see the fuss over MMR being tough to use early-game. See the MMR topic itself; one of the original strikes against it was that the map it was used on - Mystic Vale - had a lot of those mana-replenishing wells.

Hall of Intrigue=available in every dungeon. Not hard to have at least one. There's also Secrets of Destruction, but it requires two level-ups.

[Banedon]

Really?The only one?Shows how much you know about dungeon.

Boxed ranged units - kill with dragons,or MS,or one of the bolts.
Loose ranged units - kill/block with raiders and or furries,or one of the bolts.

Hydras can be used without TA in the late battle when they remain the last undistructable bastion,or early game with TA.But saying that you must have TA to counter enemy range units is plain wrong.

Early game, against neutrals. No Black Dragons nor Meteor Shower. Grim Raiders you may have; you'll still take casualties if you're unlucky (and there're a lot more creatures that can kill a Blood Fury than there are that can kill a Paladin. Getting TA in the early-game is unfeasible. And Hydras aren't the 'last indestructable bastion' either. Like with Blood Furies, they're not dangerous enough to be targetted at once.

Wrong.If furries were alone there like paladins were,theyd die fast as well.If paladins had hit and return and griffins and angels were in the front lines,youd loose griffins and anglels long before the paladins.

If Paladins had hit-and-return (a tremendous buff) then you're right the Griffins and Angels will die first, albeit not 'long before' the Paladins. That's because the creatures that want to hit the Paladins can no longer hit them. This isn't the case with Blood Furies. Here there aren't any units that want to him them in the first place, unless they're a secondary target (eg. Meteor Shower hitting your Grim Raiders and Blood Furies at the same time).

You dont have a choice but to charge sylvan.Your words,with witch I agree.Besides,paladins are meant to strike,die,get resurrected,then continue the rampage.

Right. But you don't charge the Emeral Dragons. Ideally you want to charge the Emerald Dragons and block the Master Hunters at the same time, but that's not going to happen. If you do charge the Emerald Dragons without somehow weakening the Master Hunters first you'll probably lose them all and kill maybe 2-4 of the Emerald Dragons (assuming not overly-large armies).

Not really.Griffins will land after the emeralds act,and treants will then have to either wait or attack the griffins.

Emerald Dragons are going to wait.

One level in sorcery allows you to stun the hunters enough for your hero to act before them the next time.And whenever I fought sylvan,it was always hunters that died long before the dancers.I dont remember ever even having the chance to block them,let alon actually do that.Either kill them with range units,with AoE spells,or with breath attacks.

Dungeon doesn't have poweful Ranged units. AoE spells and breath attacks yes. But what is your point here?

Blood furries get blocked very rarelly.And in those few cases you use their 16 initiative to quickly find a much better possition from which to continue their rampage.

Ancient Treants get blocked very rarely as well, but when they don't get blocked you would be in trouble (in the above example, suppose the Imperial Griffins did not land where they could block the Ancient Treants [not that I think it is possible]. The Ancient Treants whack the Paladins, the Emerald Dragons fly off. You're stuck with your most dangerous killer unit beside the most durable tank). Like I said, this is really minor and should not be pursued.

Using your logic of argumenting:
No it doesnt,because that thing never happens.

Train of reasoning is like this actually.

IF 'the entire enemy army targets the Blood Furies' THEN 'all the Blood Furies will die before they move three times'. This statement is clearly TRUE.

The contrapositive of that statement (which is a A->B statement) is IF 'all the Blood Furies do not die before they move three times' THEN 'the entire enemy army did not target the Blood Furies'. This statement is logically equivalent to the first and hence must be TRUE.

The end result is 'the entire enemy army did not target the Blood Furies', which equals my original assertion that the Blood Furies stay alive because they aren't targetted.

Now tell me,how can a second tier unit that can kill 3 7th tier units in 4 attacks(not to mention that while furries execute these four attacks,the angels will act only three times)not be a killer?

Try performing the same calculations with 500 Marksmen or 1000 Skeleton Archers.

First,we are arguing only warlocks creatures here,thus even though it is rare,we should discuss a warlock focused on creatures.Doing the opposite would be like discussing artificier on a map without a town.Second,even when focused on creatures,the warlock can still use destruction magic,utilizing masters of fire storms and ice to the fullest.

Before we start, let me ask you one thing. How did your Warlock focusing on creatures end up with a 330-damage Meteor Shower?

Not really.Blind,puppet master,frenzy,slow,confusion.All those are ways to neutralize the hunters,even if for a single round.And lets not forget what the succubi and pitlords will do here while you wait for summons to arive.Furthermore,you will be forcing sylvan to charge you,thus opening a path to your gated units.So the only full strike hunters get will be against gated units.

Sprites cast Cleansing; Ranger casts Magical Immunity or perhaps Mass Deflect Missiles (hardly necessary though). Sylvan hardly, if ever, charges.

Serriously,if you are forced to attack druids,or hunters or mages with just your initial units,you are screwed,no matter who you play.Only necro has some small chances there.

Well let's not think of Druids, Hunters or Mages. How about Marksmen? How do you propose to beat them without losing a single Blood Fury?

No,against neutrals you dont maneuver,you wipe them out before they react.Against a hero,you either wipe him out before he acts,or you let him sacrifize his whole army so he can kill the furries.Thats how the battles against the AI happen.No maneuvering at all.

'Wipe them out before they react' is an oversimplification. It's not going to be always possible. Examples: Blood Furies face Hydras / Plague Zombies / Horned Overseers in a battle. Cerberi. Sprites.

I gave you a good classification for them.The same one that can hold squires and minotaurs there.

You did. I just haven't acknowledged them. It won't resolve things anyway, since this entire debate started because you were averse to classifying Blood Furies as 'finesse'.

Who sayd Ill be using wells?And here,again,we are discussing a creature oriented warlock.5 knowledge is more then enough for him.This is not a warlock that will kill the enemy with numerous empowered implosions,this is a warlock that will use only 2 level spells to hinder the enemy while his creatures do the actual work.

Give me good arguments why this kind of Warlock would do better than a Wizard, why anyone would want to use this Warlock and why this Warlock is so common that it merits classifying Blood Furies as 'killer'.

A grim raider without a hero does 21 damage to a paladin at full charge(negates defense completelly),and thats without luck.Your original argument was that if unlucky,youll loose furries.Well so what?If you are unlucky,youll use paladins as well,even against the neutrals.So,once more,stop pulling luck arguments,they go both ways.

I tell you it never happens. The Grim Raiders I tested not only had a hero backing them up, they were also at full charge. 10-20 damage, not 21. And don't forget, Haven can always undeploy the Paladins and use the Marksmen's Precise Shot to take them all out.

So what if you lose Paladins if you're unlucky as well (I still say it never happens)? The chances of you losing Blood Furies to neutrals are far, far higher. You can choose not to use them, but if you do, you also lose a lot of firepower and wind up taking more damage.

This show that you know nothing about playing a warlock.IM is not such an awesome skill because it lets you do half damage to otherwise immune blackies,or to MIed creatures,its awesome because no matter what your enemy does,no matter how hard it will pump his MR,you can always freeze/stun his crucial units long enough to kill them before they can do serious damage.Warlock doesnt depend on the number of times he can cast empowered implosion or empowered MS.Yes,its awesome when you can deal a couple of thousands damage to three or four enemies stacks with a single spell,but its even more awesome when you can completelly remove the strongest stack your enemy has using only 8 mana.

I'll let the first sentence pass. But I'm going to argue against the rest. Somewhere along the line the Warlock will have to rely on his Empowered Implosion or Empowered Meteor Shower. Saying 'remove the strongest stack your enemy has for only 8 mana' is something that even a Knight can do, and besides it certainly does not appear to be the best thing you can do. So what if you freeze the Master Hunters? The rest of the Sylvan army is still highly dangerous and they are going to outslug the Dungeon force in toe-to-toe combat (backed by the Ranger, who's consciously backing up his force while the Warlock is busy freezing the Master Hunters). You freeze the Paladins? OK, Knight casts Mass Haste, Mass Righteous Might and Mass Endurance, then the rest of the army wipes out Dungeon. There will be times when freezing a unit is good, but more often than not you're going to have to cast your highly destructive spells.

What the? Enlightenemnt is 10 points, distributed among all the skills along the same percentages as normal. It's certainly not +10 to ALL skills. No skill in H5 is that über.

Really? The description says 'hero receives +1 to his primary stats'. I'd always figured that meant +1 to all stats Alright, he receives 10 points. For a Warlock that would still mean significant boosts to his Spell Power.

Hall of Intrigue=available in every dungeon. Not hard to have at least one. There's also Secrets of Destruction, but it requires two level-ups.

I read the Wall of Intrigue as the building that adds +1 Knowledge permanently outside the town (I'm not that familiar with building names). Alright, so it can be built in the Warlock town - but he won't have any time to build it. All towns must build dwellings, Castle and Capitol while the Warlock must also build the Mage Guild. Building the Hall of Intrigue early would delay all this, especially since in the early-game what building you build can have a huge impact on the rest of the game.

[Gaidal Cain]

Dungeon doesn't have poweful Ranged units. AoE spells and breath attacks yes. But what is your point here?

Shadow Witches are quite good ranged units, and can take quite a large chunk out of the Hunters.

Before we start, let me ask you one thing. How did your Warlock focusing on creatures end up with a 330-damage Meteor Shower?

WIth Warlock's luck or Empovered spells along with Expert Destructive, that's Spell Power 10, which does seem a bit high unless there are some boosters on the map.

'Wipe them out before they react' is an oversimplification. It's not going to be always possible. Examples: Blood Furies face Hydras / Plague Zombies / Horned Overseers in a battle. Cerberi. Sprites.

Neutral Hydras/Zombies/demons are the perfect targets of a sizeable stack of furies- they'll be dead before crossing the field. Cerberi are tougher, but can be done. Sprites are next to impossible to take without losses due to that damned Wasp Swarm.

I read the Wall of Intrigue as the building that adds +1 Knowledge permanently outside the town (I'm not that familiar with building names). Alright, so it can be built in the Warlock town - but he won't have any time to build it. All towns must build dwellings, Castle and Capitol while the Warlock must also build the Mage Guild. Building the Hall of Intrigue early would delay all this, especially since in the early-game what building you build can have a huge impact on the rest of the game.

It's a pre-req on the way to witches, so it has to be built. Though it does require town level 9, so it's not going to happen in the first week. You can count on it being built second week though.

[Banedon]

Shadow Witches are quite good ranged units, and can take quite a large chunk out of the Hunters.

They're good Ranged creatures, but they're not powerful - all of the other level 6 units except Ancient Treants wield more destructive power. They deal good damage for a Ranged unit but poor damage for a level 6 unit. They have no choice but to use their Ranged attacks because the rest of the Dungeon army is even more incompetent at Ranged attacks.

They can kill a large chunk of Master Hunters, but that's trading a level 6 stack's action for a level 3's.

WIth Warlock's luck or Empovered spells along with Expert Destructive, that's Spell Power 10, which does seem a bit high unless there are some boosters on the map.

It's not that high; a level 15 Warlock with said skills should have Spell Power 10. The difference is however that this is a Warlock focused on creatures - so no Destructive Magic (at least at Expert level), Empowered Spells or Warlock's Luck.

Neutral Hydras/Zombies/demons are the perfect targets of a sizeable stack of furies- they'll be dead before crossing the field. Cerberi are tougher, but can be done. Sprites are next to impossible to take without losses due to that damned Wasp Swarm.

Nah, the Hydras / Zombies and Demons won't all die before crossing the field, but the Blood Furies will exploit their superior intiative and speed to run rings around them, eventually leading to an outright victory. This is a tactic everyone using Blood Furies knows / will know. The Blood Furies move. They maneuver. So it has been said, so it is done.

It's a pre-req on the way to witches, so it has to be built. Though it does require town level 9, so it's not going to happen in the first week. You can count on it being built second week though.

Second week on Heroic is a bit too early in my opinion; Dungeon has resource problems to cope with. Third week probably. But by then the early-game problem with spell points would be gone while the final-battle problem with spell points would not be helped by a simple +1 Knowledge. Intelligence's a great skill to go for with Dungeon, in my opinion.

[okrane]

don't mean to intrude... but after reading a few pages of your posts I came to wonder... what is the point of your arguement? 'cause I can't find any... nor what each of you is trying to prove...

[Elvin]

I guess it's an endurance match And a matter of who submits to the other's superior arguments!

[Banedon]

don't mean to intrude... but after reading a few pages of your posts I came to wonder... what is the point of your arguement? 'cause I can't find any... nor what each of you is trying to prove...

It all started as 'should Blood Furies be classified as finesse or killer units?' The arguments got more and more convulated. For example, take this quote:

Emerald Dragons are going to wait.

If DaemianLucifer is unable to refute this, it will, in this order:

1. Prove that no matter where the Imperial Griffins may land after their Battle Dive, if the opponent is smart they will not be able to block anything from hitting the Paladins.
2. Prove that the presence of the Imperial Griffins does not change the Paladin's situation.
3. Prove that Paladins are alone in the enemy army.
-> Here we use the assumption that Paladins are so dangerous that they are automatically the target of any army.
4. Hence the Paladins die just as fast (in truth, faster) than Blood Furies.
5. Hence explaining DaemianLucifer's original observation that Paladins die just as fast as Blood Furies and refuting his argument that it is unfair to classify Paladins as killers and Blood Furies as finesse because of this shared trait.

It's all very convulated, but it all links back to the original question. I personally feel DaemianLucifer lost sight of most of the original origins of these points however and is now arguing for the sake of arguing though.

[Elvin]

DL sticking to the topic every time? That would be boring!

[Gaidal Cain]

They can kill a large chunk of Master Hunters, but that's trading a level 6 stack's action for a level 3's.

It's trading an auction of one of your more mediocre units for the action of the enemies two most important units. I call it a fair trade.

It's not that high; a level 15 Warlock with said skills should have Spell Power 10. The difference is however that this is a Warlock focused on creatures - so no Destructive Magic (at least at Expert level), Empowered Spells or Warlock's Luck.

I'd say that a Warlock that totally focuses on creatures is badly built. One that splits the attention by choosing Destructive (magic), attac (creatures) and luck (both) is a much more viable choice. You'll also see that's the build DL has used all the time.

Nah, the Hydras / Zombies and Demons won't all die before crossing the field, but the Blood Furies will exploit their superior intiative and speed to run rings around them, eventually leading to an outright victory. This is a tactic everyone using Blood Furies knows / will know. The Blood Furies move. They maneuver. So it has been said, so it is done.

I find that a decently sized stack of Furies most often manages to take care of most of the low-level slow walkers before they've corssed, with the aid of scouts and the hero. Hydras is another matter, but when facing those, you're probably beyond using only Furies/scouts anyway.

Second week on Heroic is a bit too early in my opinion; Dungeon has resource problems to cope with. Third week probably. But by then the early-game problem with spell points would be gone while the final-battle problem with spell points would not be helped by a simple +1 Knowledge. Intelligence's a great skill to go for with Dungeon, in my opinion.

It's 1500 gold only. I find it can be afforded second week most of the time, at least if the map has reasonable amounts of gold.

[DaemianLucifer]

Early game, against neutrals. No Black Dragons nor Meteor Shower. Grim Raiders you may have; you'll still take casualties if you're unlucky (and there're a lot more creatures that can kill a Blood Fury than there are that can kill a Paladin. Getting TA in the early-game is unfeasible. And Hydras aren't the 'last indestructable bastion' either. Like with Blood Furies, they're not dangerous enough to be targetted at once.

You having hydras but no MS,or at least a fireball or ring of ice happens rarelly.Actually,never.And again,dont drag luck in here,it goes both ways.If you are dismissing it from one place,dont put it back in on the other.Also,if the ranged creatures are dangerous and you know youll have losses,you can always deploy only minotaurs and spell the enemy to death.

If Paladins had hit-and-return (a tremendous buff) then you're right the Griffins and Angels will die first, albeit not 'long before' the Paladins. That's because the creatures that want to hit the Paladins can no longer hit them. This isn't the case with Blood Furies. Here there aren't any units that want to him them in the first place, unless they're a secondary target (eg. Meteor Shower hitting your Grim Raiders and Blood Furies at the same time).

Thats because furries are level 2 and have low defense.You could waste a turn of your level 7 to kill them,but that would be an overkill.However,those units that you would use against them dont have the reach.

Right. But you don't charge the Emeral Dragons. Ideally you want to charge the Emerald Dragons and block the Master Hunters at the same time, but that's not going to happen. If you do charge the Emerald Dragons without somehow weakening the Master Hunters first you'll probably lose them all and kill maybe 2-4 of the Emerald Dragons (assuming not overly-large armies).

You will never block the hunters by charging the emeralds.You can choose either to charge the emeralds,unicorns or sprites/dancers.And of course,the first action would be dive bomb,wait with paladins,buff them and hurt the hunters if you can,charge with paladins,then the griffins arive.When they arive,it is possible that they land somewhere blocking treants or dancers.Possible,but very unlikelly.

Emerald Dragons are going to wait.

Depends on the position on the bar.And if not the treants,griffins can block the dancers.

Dungeon doesn't have poweful Ranged units. AoE spells and breath attacks yes. But what is your point here?

My point is that you wont use furries as blockers.Furthermore,you will never block any unit with dungeon.With dungeon,if you cant kill enemies ranged units and have to block them,that means that you lost.

IF 'the entire enemy army targets the Blood Furies' THEN 'all the Blood Furies will die before they move three times'. This statement is clearly TRUE.

Again,using your logic,this doesnt happen,so the rest simply isnt even worth considering.Either change that logic,or I wont even consider your examples as valuable.

Try performing the same calculations with 500 Marksmen or 1000 Skeleton Archers.

Comparing 500 marksmen and 1000 skeletons to 50 furries?Oh yes,that works.

Btw,I did say that both marksmen and skel archers are killers,but only due to their ridiculous numbers.

Before we start, let me ask you one thing. How did your Warlock focusing on creatures end up with a 330-damage Meteor Shower?

With 10 spellpower youll have 220 damage MS.Empower that,and its 330.Thats what a level 15 warlock will aproximatelly have.Add warlocks luck here,and it become 660.

Sprites cast Cleansing; Ranger casts Magical Immunity or perhaps Mass Deflect Missiles (hardly necessary though). Sylvan hardly, if ever, charges.

Sprites may fail the clensing,or may get killed very early.Furthermore,if your hero plays just before the hunters,you wont be able to clense them when they get frenzied.But that depends on luck,and I wont consider that situation.

Well let's not think of Druids, Hunters or Mages. How about Marksmen? How do you propose to beat them without losing a single Blood Fury?

You will attack a ranged stack only if you are forced to(meaning they guard your initial mines),no matter who you play.And no matter who you play,you will loose a lot,meaning its bad luck.Its extremelly bad luck.And like I said,I wont consider any more purelly luck based situations.

'Wipe them out before they react' is an oversimplification. It's not going to be always possible. Examples: Blood Furies face Hydras / Plague Zombies / Horned Overseers in a battle. Cerberi. Sprites.

There would have to be many,many slow walkers(even hydras)if you cant wipe them out before they reach you.Remember that you have at least 4 turns with furries and 2 with your heroe before they can rach you.Cerberi are a bit tougher,but deploying only hydras leads to flawless victory.Sprites can be won flawlessly only with hydras.

You did. I just haven't acknowledged them. It won't resolve things anyway, since this entire debate started because you were averse to classifying Blood Furies as 'finesse'.

And I still dont consider them finesse.In low numbers,yes.In high numbers,no.

Give me good arguments why this kind of Warlock would do better than a Wizard, why anyone would want to use this Warlock and why this Warlock is so common that it merits classifying Blood Furies as 'killer'.

Wizards have to use lots of high level spells and marks of wizards,thus they require lots of wells.Warlocks have as well,if they are focused on their spells(sorcery,destruction,warlocks luck,empowered spells).But,if focused on creatures,they use only low level destruction spells combined with their masteries,and those are cheap.

I tell you it never happens. The Grim Raiders I tested not only had a hero backing them up, they were also at full charge. 10-20 damage, not 21. And don't forget, Haven can always undeploy the Paladins and use the Marksmen's Precise Shot to take them all out.

Even if 20 is the top damage,it still means that 5 raiders can kill a paladin.Like I said,if you are unlucky,you can even loose paladins to neutrals.

So what if you lose Paladins if you're unlucky as well (I still say it never happens)? The chances of you losing Blood Furies to neutrals are far, far higher. You can choose not to use them, but if you do, you also lose a lot of firepower and wind up taking more damage.

No,because you wont be deploying furries when there is a risk of loosing them,just like you wont deploy paladins.

I'll let the first sentence pass. But I'm going to argue against the rest. Somewhere along the line the Warlock will have to rely on his Empowered Implosion or Empowered Meteor Shower. Saying 'remove the strongest stack your enemy has for only 8 mana' is something that even a Knight can do, and besides it certainly does not appear to be the best thing you can do. So what if you freeze the Master Hunters? The rest of the Sylvan army is still highly dangerous and they are going to outslug the Dungeon force in toe-to-toe combat (backed by the Ranger, who's consciously backing up his force while the Warlock is busy freezing the Master Hunters). You freeze the Paladins? OK, Knight casts Mass Haste, Mass Righteous Might and Mass Endurance, then the rest of the army wipes out Dungeon. There will be times when freezing a unit is good, but more often than not you're going to have to cast your highly destructive spells.

First,if youre army can wipe the dungeon without hunters,then hunters arent your most dangerous stack,and I wont be focusing on them,simple as that.Second,if your army is such that you can destroy my army no matter what spells I cast,that means I played extremelly poorly,thus no matter what I do,Ill loose.Third,while you cast mass haste,mass righteous might and mass endurance I will be able to cast three spells as well.Considering youll mostly wait(maybe skirmish with paladins),Ill focus my spells on your marksmen and inquisitors.Removing them(not killing them,only making them not dangerous)with three spells is easy for a warlock.

Really? The description says 'hero receives +1 to his primary stats'. I'd always figured that meant +1 to all stats Alright, he receives 10 points. For a Warlock that would still mean significant boosts to his Spell Power.

Roughly 4 to spell power.Yes,it is nice to have,but not essential.

I read the Wall of Intrigue as the building that adds +1 Knowledge permanently outside the town (I'm not that familiar with building names). Alright, so it can be built in the Warlock town - but he won't have any time to build it. All towns must build dwellings, Castle and Capitol while the Warlock must also build the Mage Guild. Building the Hall of Intrigue early would delay all this, especially since in the early-game what building you build can have a huge impact on the rest of the game.

Excuse me,but what is wizard doing?Building dwellings?Warlocks have as much hard time as the rest.

WIth Warlock's luck or Empovered spells along with Expert Destructive, that's Spell Power 10, which does seem a bit high unless there are some boosters on the map.

For a level 15-20 warlock,not really.

They're good Ranged creatures, but they're not powerful - all of the other level 6 units except Ancient Treants wield more destructive power. They deal good damage for a Ranged unit but poor damage for a level 6 unit. They have no choice but to use their Ranged attacks because the rest of the Dungeon army is even more incompetent at Ranged attacks.

They can kill a large chunk of Master Hunters, but that's trading a level 6 stack's action for a level 3's.

No,you will be trading your shadow witches for enemies master hunters,one of the most dangerous creatures in the game.Id call that a very good trade.

It's not that high; a level 15 Warlock with said skills should have Spell Power 10. The difference is however that this is a Warlock focused on creatures - so no Destructive Magic (at least at Expert level), Empowered Spells or Warlock's Luck.

Did you even read the build I wrote?Expert destruction and warlocks luck are in there.Focusing on creaturs doesnt mean the same for a warlock as it does for a night.

Nah, the Hydras / Zombies and Demons won't all die before crossing the field, but the Blood Furies will exploit their superior intiative and speed to run rings around them, eventually leading to an outright victory. This is a tactic everyone using Blood Furies knows / will know. The Blood Furies move. They maneuver. So it has been said, so it is done.

Read the above.It would have to be a very big number of those units for you not to be able to kill them before they cross the field.And to spice it up a bit,against such a big numbers,youd loose a few of your hunters if you fought them,and probably even paladins.

Second week on Heroic is a bit too early in my opinion; Dungeon has resource problems to cope with. Third week probably. But by then the early-game problem with spell points would be gone while the final-battle problem with spell points would not be helped by a simple +1 Knowledge. Intelligence's a great skill to go for with Dungeon, in my opinion.

Great-yes.Essential-no.

1. Prove that no matter where the Imperial Griffins may land after their Battle Dive, if the opponent is smart they will not be able to block anything from hitting the Paladins.
2. Prove that the presence of the Imperial Griffins does not change the Paladin's situation.
3. Prove that Paladins are alone in the enemy army.
-> Here we use the assumption that Paladins are so dangerous that they are automatically the target of any army.
4. Hence the Paladins die just as fast (in truth, faster) than Blood Furies.
5. Hence explaining DaemianLucifer's original observation that Paladins die just as fast as Blood Furies and refuting his argument that it is unfair to classify Paladins as killers and Blood Furies as finesse because of this shared trait.

Interesting,but 1 and 2 are in contradiction to each other.You were the one that said griffins will be there by paladins side,not me.I forgot when the change occured.But nevertheless,here goes:

1.Griffins land in the very corner,thus blocking either your treants or your dancers.Even if for a turn,it shows that its just a matter of luck.
2.Why do I have to prove that?It does change the situation,of course.All the creatures on the BF interact in a way.But what it doesnt change is the fact that everyone will still be attacking the paladins.In fact,even you said that,multiple times.So if you share my oppinion,why do I have to prove it to you?
3.Comes straight out of 2,so no need to prove it.The paladins are the only ones being attacked by the enemy,thus they are alone.
4.Again,doesnt need proving,its a fact.When 7 stacks target a single stack,the single stack dies.When no stacks target a single stack,that stack lives.
5.Comes straight out of 4(well duh).

It's all very convulated, but it all links back to the original question. I personally feel DaemianLucifer lost sight of most of the original origins of these points however and is now arguing for the sake of arguing though.

Nope,I didnt.It branched into a few other questions though,but I still stand by my initial observation that if you classify one of the above as killers,so you have to the other.Both can be both.

[Banedon]

It's trading an auction of one of your more mediocre units for the action of the enemies two most important units. I call it a fair trade.

Well it's only one, and I don't view it as a fair trade. It's a level 6 for level 3 after all, and it marks Shadow Matriaches as mediocre. They can take out large chunks of Master Hunters simply because they're level 6 units. The point is, Dungeon's one of the races with weak Ranged fire.

I have lost sight of how this point is relevant to the main part of the debate however. How?

I find that a decently sized stack of Furies most often manages to take care of most of the low-level slow walkers before they've corssed, with the aid of scouts and the hero. Hydras is another matter, but when facing those, you're probably beyond using only Furies/scouts anyway.

Do you play a lot of Heroic difficulty games? In the third turn you might have 10 Blood Furies and yet attack Hordes of Horned Overlords. You're unlikely to kill them all; you have to move.

It's 1500 gold only. I find it can be afforded second week most of the time, at least if the map has reasonable amounts of gold.

Oh my, embarassing The problem with debating with you Gaidal Cain is that I need to upgrade my knowledge a lot more...I was under the impression that it costs Sulphur. Whether it will be built early in the second week is difficult to call though. I suppose it depends on whether the Warlock's going for Shadow Matriaches.

But what's that got to do with the question? Intelligence is still going to help the Warlock.

You having hydras but no MS,or at least a fireball or ring of ice happens rarelly.Actually,never.And again,dont drag luck in here,it goes both ways.If you are dismissing it from one place,dont put it back in on the other.Also,if the ranged creatures are dangerous and you know youll have losses,you can always deploy only minotaurs and spell the enemy to death.

You should drag in luck. It goes both ways, so what? You're much more likely to remember losing 10 Blood Furies to a stroke of misfortune than to win 4 consecutive battles with luck on your side. Fireball and Circle of Winter are relatively high-level spells and you won't have them. Deploying only Minotaurs? #1 It costs gold to hire Minotaurs and #2 it costs spell points.

Thats because furries are level 2 and have low defense.You could waste a turn of your level 7 to kill them,but that would be an overkill.However,those units that you would use against them dont have the reach.

See, if trading a level 6 unit's action for a level 3's a fine idea, why can't you trade a level 7 unit's action to kill the level 2's that are supposedly one of your opponent's most dangerous killers? After all, why would Titans in an Academy force aim at Marksmen? It's a waste, right?

I think your logic's imploding on itself. Try to refute the statement 'Blood Furies stay alive because they're not targetted', not anything else.

Depends on the position on the bar.And if not the treants,griffins can block the dancers.

The War Dancers aren't going to relinquish their position beside the Master Hunters. It's too dangerous. What happens if the unit your Imperial Griffins BattleDived was the Silver Unicorns instead? Then the Paladins charge them and they all die, then the Archangels break the barricade. Not good. Position on the bar? For some reason or another I've found my Emerald Dragons to be able to wait and still act before the Ancient Treants. They still have initiative 7 after waiting after all.

Remember: the price for losing this gamble is all your Paladins' heads in a sack. The Ancient Treants will bind them and you will be unable to escape.

My point is that you wont use furries as blockers.Furthermore,you will never block any unit with dungeon.With dungeon,if you cant kill enemies ranged units and have to block them,that means that you lost.

You prefer to kill 100 Skeleton Archers and then have the Blood Furies retreat? If there are a grand total of 1000 Skeleton Archers, do you expect to kill them all so quickly?

Again,using your logic,this doesnt happen,so the rest simply isnt even worth considering.Either change that logic,or I wont even consider your examples as valuable.

In a A->B statement, if the preliminary condition is false, the statement is always true. This is a statement of mathematical logic. A->B is fully equivalent to ~B->~A. In the second form ~B is true, so ~A is also true. The way I see it, you're refusing to accept impeccable logic.

Comparing 500 marksmen and 1000 skeletons to 50 furries?Oh yes,that works.

Btw,I did say that both marksmen and skel archers are killers,but only due to their ridiculous numbers.

If you're comparing just 1 of each unit, you'll have to mark Assassins as killers and Skeleton Archers as fodder. Obviously that doesn't make sense. Why not? I'll tell you why: you neglected their numbers. Blood Furies reproduce at 10 per week. If they reproduced at 20 they would be killers. But they don't. See?

With 10 spellpower youll have 220 damage MS.Empower that,and its 330.Thats what a level 15 warlock will aproximatelly have.Add warlocks luck here,and it become 660.

Your Warlock is learning creature-enhancing skills, not Expert Destructive Magic or Empowered spells.

Sprites may fail the clensing,or may get killed very early.Furthermore,if your hero plays just before the hunters,you wont be able to clense them when they get frenzied.But that depends on luck,and I wont consider that situation.

Fail the Cleansing? Possible, but then just as possible they won't. Don't drag luck into a one-off situation like this one. As for 'killed very early', that's something that won't be happening, for the same reasons as with Blood Furies, unless they're killed by secondary damage.

If the hero plays just before the Hunters, you get to cast Magical Immunity on them! Great. Cleansing indeed.

You will attack a ranged stack only if you are forced to(meaning they guard your initial mines),no matter who you play.And no matter who you play,you will loose a lot,meaning its bad luck.Its extremelly bad luck.And like I said,I wont consider any more purelly luck based situations.

That's what you think. I can play Necropolis and beat the Ranged stacks without taking casualties. I can play Haven and win and lose some Marksmen of my own - but I take less casualties, because Marksmen are freely reproducable and Blood Furies are not. I can play Academy and lose a couple of Stone Gargoyles, or Inferno and lose some Horned Overlords. How about it?

There would have to be many,many slow walkers(even hydras)if you cant wipe them out before they reach you.Remember that you have at least 4 turns with furries and 2 with your heroe before they can rach you.Cerberi are a bit tougher,but deploying only hydras leads to flawless victory.Sprites can be won flawlessly only with hydras.

I suppose 4 turns with 10 Blood Furies and 2 with a level 2 Hero can wipe out 66 Zombies?

Wizards have to use lots of high level spells and marks of wizards,thus they require lots of wells.Warlocks have as well,if they are focused on their spells(sorcery,destruction,warlocks luck,empowered spells).But,if focused on creatures,they use only low level destruction spells combined with their masteries,and those are cheap.

Wizards don't have to use Mark of the Wizard early-game. Neither do they have to use a lot of high-level spells. Eldritch Arrow FTW.

Tell me exactly what your creature-focused Warlock is doing and learning.

Even if 20 is the top damage,it still means that 5 raiders can kill a paladin.Like I said,if you are unlucky,you can even loose paladins to neutrals.

You're getting more and more unreasonable. If you're unlucky, you can lose Blood Furies to Horned Overlords, but you'd have to be remarkably unlucky. The chances of all 5 Grim Raiders dealing 20 damage is 1/2^5. Add that to the chance that there are no obstacles and to the chance that the Paladins fail to move before the Grim Raiders, and to the chance that - crucially - the Haven player does not deploy the Paladins.

No,because you wont be deploying furries when there is a risk of loosing them,just like you wont deploy paladins.

How often do you not run the risk of losing them? You'd stand a risk of losing them if you're up against Cerberi or Grim Raiders. Don't say Hydras. It's early-game.

First,if youre army can wipe the dungeon without hunters,then hunters arent your most dangerous stack,and I wont be focusing on them,simple as that.Second,if your army is such that you can destroy my army no matter what spells I cast,that means I played extremelly poorly,thus no matter what I do,Ill loose.Third,while you cast mass haste,mass righteous might and mass endurance I will be able to cast three spells as well.Considering youll mostly wait(maybe skirmish with paladins),Ill focus my spells on your marksmen and inquisitors.Removing them(not killing them,only making them not dangerous)with three spells is easy for a warlock.

First, if the Sylvan army can destroy the Dungeon force without Hunters, it's because the Dungeon force has voluntarily removed his hero from battle while the Ranger is still present. In other words, it's something like Inferno moving Horned Overseers into the middle of their army and going boom, inflicting self-inflicted casualties. Second, I did not say my army can destroy yours no matter what you do, I only said that my army can destroy yours if you only cast Lighthing Bolt. Third, your three spells will be three Lightning Bolts, because you're so intent on keeping the Hunters out of battle. Four, killing 500 Marksmen with three spells is hardly easy for a level 16 Warlock, and if you're doing that you'll drain all your spellpoints and leave the other killers untouched.

Excuse me,but what is wizard doing?Building dwellings?Warlocks have as much hard time as the rest.

Wizards can do without building dwellings early-game. Warlocks can't. They run out of spell points, Wizards generally don't.

Read the above.It would have to be a very big number of those units for you not to be able to kill them before they cross the field.And to spice it up a bit,against such a big numbers,youd loose a few of your hunters if you fought them,and probably even paladins.

4 Paladins run 66 Zombies through without any problems, while if you have just 1 you won't be using Paladins to clear the Zombies. Of course the 10 Blood Furies will win as well. They just have to move. Sylvan won't be using Hunters against the Zombies as well; they'd play hit-and-run with Sprites.

Interesting,but 1 and 2 are in contradiction to each other.You were the one that said griffins will be there by paladins side,not me.

I fail to read any kind of contradiction into 1 and 2. The Imperial Griffins do not change the Paladin's situation of being the target of the entire enemy army, but they reduce the army that are actually attacking the Paladins.

5.Comes straight out of 4(well duh).

Well then you lost this section of the debate, and we can focus on the others, and we can clear all parts related to this matter.