Battlefields Size

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Battlefields Size

Unread postby Lyan » 16 Dec 2006, 11:48

In an other topic a well inspired player disscussed the importance of creating new battlefield to refresh the game. I totally agree on this, new battlefield will refresh the game more than any race could do since this would affect each existing race.

I have for a long time a somehow similar yet also different consideration on the battlefileds, their size. For those which played H3 and H4, you will prbably agree that battlefeilds where probably one of the main originalities H4 offered. I really loved H4 for it's combats, the 3d iso added something o the combat map as it somehow damaged the adventure map.

The larger battlefields are indeed needed in H5, this would somehow allow more strategy deploying troops. u could imagine having different fronts where 3 or 4 stacks are involved while somewhere else on the battle field the remaining stacks fight another battle. It could as welll make fight more interesting. I mean right now, late in games, when the stacks comme really big, initiative take the upper hand on all other factors. Who strikes first, answer as well the question who will win ? That's somehow normal and indeed pretty realistic, but a larger battlefield would allow other factors than a simple statistic to decide it. Imo any unit should use at least 2 turns to reach the enemy starting position, with maybe some excpetions (including the tactical skill, and maybe one or 2 units which speed is the main attribute)
RIght now the fight are too simplist, most of the unit can cross at leat half of the battlefield in one turn, this makes almost no "save point" or "retreat point" possible. But retreat then rallying is a factor of an utmost importance in a battle. One unit should be able to break the fight using is higher speed to escape his direct opponent without having the certitude that 3/4 of the unit on the BF can reach them. This makes that right now it's better to deal one more hit to make some more damages at a stack that will certainly kill you than fleeing and waiting for a better spot to attack.

Imo smaller battlefields makes battles, quicker and way more simple. It's no secret but when a company like Ubisoft decide to buy a franchise like Heroes, it's not to please the fan, but only because they see a good opportunity to make money without too much inventivity. And everytime such scenarios happens, the big new franchise holder try to make the sequel game more "accesible", thus easyier.
I don't want to glorify 3DO (even if i personnaly think they deserve it) but with heroes 2 and 3 they created a new reference in the video game universe. A successfull game that proffesional and players together acclaimed. Even tho ! they decieded to take some risk in heroes 4, not a simple translation of the succesfull H3. This brought some reprehensible and critisized inovations, the buidling town structure, the non upgradable units, the morale system, and much more... but in the end heroes 4 was a very good game to each who make the effort to adapt ans try it furthermore than the inital suprise of seeing too many changes. heroes 5 Take exctly the opposite path, taking back everything which made H3 a fantastic popular success, and totally what H4 brought. Well i dare say that the battles were more interesting in heroes 4 than in heroes 5 and yeah than in heroes 3 as well.

So as a conclusion, i will ask or larger battlefields, tho extended possibilities in battles :)

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Unread postby okrane » 16 Dec 2006, 11:59

didn't we have another thread about these?

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Unread postby Lyan » 16 Dec 2006, 16:06

you could even have an encylopedia about this, i wouldn't mind.
Still there's a thread about implementing new BF, ruins, special combat situation ect... but yet it's not the point. New Bf of the same size would change absolutely nothing, they can add as many obstacles as they wish, it wouldn't change the escence of the problem.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 16:59

okrane wrote:didn't we have another thread about these?
Yeah, back when the BF was 8x10.
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Dec 2006, 17:13

Not a surprise here, but I disagree with the initial post. Massively.
1) Larger battlefields allow fast no-retaliation units to beat each number of slower opponents. With a very big battlefield you need only a unit that has MARGINALLY more initiative than another and ONE more speed and you can beat EVERY number of opponents. This would be a pretty bad idea.
2) Larger battlefields would make ranged units much more important than they are now - which would be bad as well. I'm really very happy that this game involves decent non-ranged tactics as well. Safe points? No, thanks.
3) Battles may take very long as it is. Try to pit two high defense low attack armies against each other - Sylvan and Necro, for example.
4) The Magic makes all the difference and battles are not as simple as they seem, not nearly.

Remember, this was designed always as a FAST game; you are not supposed to think two minutes before retreating some unit out of range of another.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 17:24

Jolly Joker wrote: 1) Larger battlefields allow fast no-retaliation units to beat each number of slower opponents. With a very big battlefield you need only a unit that has MARGINALLY more initiative than another and ONE more speed and you can beat EVERY number of opponents. This would be a pretty bad idea.
As oposed to now with the Zombies and other slow units? And this could easily be balanced by giving low init units more speed and vice-versa.
2) Larger battlefields would make ranged units much more important than they are now - which would be bad as well. I'm really very happy that this game involves decent non-ranged tactics as well. Safe points? No, thanks.
1/4 penalties could easily be applied, and there could be some units that can cross the BF in on be go, just not as many as now. Right now if an unprotected shooter gets one shot it's something.
3) Battles may take very long as it is. Try to pit two high defense low attack armies against each other - Sylvan and Necro, for example.
I'm not even gonna comment on this one. :disagree:

4) The Magic makes all the difference and battles are not as simple as they seem, not nearly.
What?!
Remember, this was designed always as a FAST game; you are not supposed to think two minutes before retreating some unit out of range of another.
Don't you mean as a lesser thinking/options game?!
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Unread postby val-gaav » 16 Dec 2006, 17:34

I would like to see the "fight for town battlefield" reduced to normal size ....

Why ? becouse I find the game to be balanced in terms of unit speed for those smaller normal battlefields ...

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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 16 Dec 2006, 17:47

Not sure about this; my main gripe is that there still is a bit too many units capable of crossing the field in one turn (especially with artifacts and certain abilities, which makes them a bit too valuable). On the other hand, the larger squares makes the field more crammed, which I think is beneficial for tactics, at least up to a certain point. Twiddling with unit speeds is sure going to change the balance between ranged units and cavalry-types, and I'm not really sure where the optimum is. At least it's good that unlike H3, there is no way to bring all of your army to the other end of the field in turn one (unless you're a Runemage with a ton of wood to spare...).
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 17:58

Gaidal Cain wrote:(unless you're a Warlord with a ton of wood to spare...).
What?!
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 16 Dec 2006, 18:26

I think I might have seen too many HoF cutscenes where they dwarven heroes are refered to by that title...
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 18:35

Gaidal Cain wrote:I think I might have seen too many HoF cutscenes where they dwarven heroes are refered to by that title...
Well.... HoMM5 cutscenes do affect the mind. :devil:


And i mentioned it before, HoMM should have bigger BF's, and leave the small ones to Disciples (who right now seems to get a bigger BF, much to my chagrin). Balance can be achived after you set the BF size.

As for the squares, their size only limits unit size, even if they we're smaller the BF culd be just as crammed, depending on creature size. The bigger squares just make the devs job easier.... God forbid they'd have to put too much effort into balancing.
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Unread postby Kilop » 16 Dec 2006, 18:50

I support(ed?) Nival... flame on !!!
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Dec 2006, 20:58

ThunderTitan wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote: 1) Larger battlefields allow fast no-retaliation units to beat each number of slower opponents. With a very big battlefield you need only a unit that has MARGINALLY more initiative than another and ONE more speed and you can beat EVERY number of opponents. This would be a pretty bad idea.
As oposed to now with the Zombies and other slow units? And this could easily be balanced by giving low init units more speed and vice-versa.
2) Larger battlefields would make ranged units much more important than they are now - which would be bad as well. I'm really very happy that this game involves decent non-ranged tactics as well. Safe points? No, thanks.
1/4 penalties could easily be applied, and there could be some units that can cross the BF in on be go, just not as many as now. Right now if an unprotected shooter gets one shot it's something.
3) Battles may take very long as it is. Try to pit two high defense low attack armies against each other - Sylvan and Necro, for example.
I'm not even gonna comment on this one. :disagree:

4) The Magic makes all the difference and battles are not as simple as they seem, not nearly.
What?!
Remember, this was designed always as a FAST game; you are not supposed to think two minutes before retreating some unit out of range of another.
Don't you mean as a lesser thinking/options game?!

The only thing I see is that you are unsuccessfully trying to make up for the disadvantages a larger battlefield would have without coing up with an advantage.
Where is an advantage? Longer battles? Why would that be an advantage even if it was so? More options? What options do you have in mind?
I think, that this is a no-post of yours.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 16 Dec 2006, 21:22

Jolly Joker wrote: The only thing I see is that you are unsuccessfully trying to make up for the disadvantages a larger battlefield would have without coing up with an advantage.

Here: viewtopic.php?t=597&start=0

I'm sure you can find some good reasons for a bigger BF somewhere in there.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 16 Dec 2006, 21:38

Jolly Joker wrote: 1) Larger battlefields allow fast no-retaliation units to beat each number of slower opponents. With a very big battlefield you need only a unit that has MARGINALLY more initiative than another and ONE more speed and you can beat EVERY number of opponents. This would be a pretty bad idea.
That already exists and is a problem of the implementation of initiative not the size of the BF.
Jolly Joker wrote: 2) Larger battlefields would make ranged units much more important than they are now - which would be bad as well. I'm really very happy that this game involves decent non-ranged tactics as well. Safe points? No, thanks.
Not so.Like TT said having quarter penalties,having range of most range units not as big as the BF itself,reducing their damage,etc are all possible.Furthermore having spells that affect speed as well as initiative would allow for units to reach the other side.
Jolly Joker wrote: 3) Battles may take very long as it is. Try to pit two high defense low attack armies against each other - Sylvan and Necro, for example.
So?To use one of your(and many others)favourite argument:If you dont like long battles play a different game :devil:
Jolly Joker wrote: 4) The Magic makes all the difference and battles are not as simple as they seem, not nearly.
What has that to do with the size of the BF?
Jolly Joker wrote: Remember, this was designed always as a FAST game; you are not supposed to think two minutes before retreating some unit out of range of another.
Yup,it was designed to be a quick slaughterfest.

My gripes are that a unit such as sprite can cross the same distance as an angel and that the tiles are massive.Just quartering the tiles we have now would be a big improvement.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Dec 2006, 21:42

Nope. Not so. The only valid reason for changing battlefield size - and that was the real reason behind changing the size to 10x12, not Ubi pressuring or something - was the fact that the 8x10 had some slight problems with
a) obstacles
b) gating
c) summoning
d) gating in case of Inferno against Inferno.

There simply wasn't enough space to cater for everything of those at the same time.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 16 Dec 2006, 21:46

DL, you fail to say what would be accomplished with a bigger battlefield.
Longer battles would of course be bad for MP games, you sure realize that.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 17 Dec 2006, 15:42

Jolly Joker wrote: Longer battles would of course be bad for MP games, you sure realize that.
Ahem:
DaemianLucifer wrote: So?To use one of your(and many others)favourite argument:If you dont like long battles play a different game :devil:

Jolly Joker wrote: was the fact that the 8x10 had some slight problems with
So it was just a coincidence that everyone complained about it?!


And an advantage would be greater freedom to move, and the fact that you could actualy have a battle on 2 fronts, without a unit from one being able to reach the other in one turn unless there are enough obstacles in the way. Not to mention making shooters more then one-trick ponies which the enemy always ties up as soon as posible.

And saying that a bigger BF has no advantage?! BS. Both sizes have advantages and disadvantages, I prefer a bigger BF in HoMM, but i guess that would set it too much apart, wouldn't it.

And how much longer would it really make an MP battle anyway?! A few minutes?! And wasn't it always the adv map part of MP that was the most boring part, since you spend way more time waiting for the other?! Let's not even mention that even now a player could take 2+ minutes to decide on a move...
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 17 Dec 2006, 16:01

ThunderTitan wrote:
So it was just a coincidence that everyone complained about it?!
Did I say that? The battlefield wouldn't fit all units in some cases -
which in my book is a superior technical reason to make it bigger. :)
Which they did.
The rest is pure personal preference. Bigger, smaller, it's the same for all opponents.

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Unread postby Corelanis » 17 Dec 2006, 16:04

You still cant fit 7 stacks of dragons on the field. So now they have a good reason to make the field bigger. So they didnt make it big enough.


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