I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Khelavaster]

I like'em Furries. Furies aren't bad either.

[Banedon]

After around 3 days (or so) this discussion is still going on. And, normally I wouldn't mind. However, it has become a vicious cycle (Blood Furies - Paladins...Paladins - Blood Furies). In the end, what will it prove?

I hope that this discussion does these things:

1. Prove that Blood Furies are not killers.
2. Prove that DaemianLucifer is hardly the player of Heroes V that he thinks he is.
3. Help DaemianLucifer to learn more about the game.

You know DaemianLucifer? When I first started this I was looking for advice, hints on how to play Dungeon. When I first entered into this debate I was hoping to learn something from you. It has not happened; in fact it seems to me the reverse is happening. How ironic.

As DL said, that will hardly be the case- high defense doesn't work that way, or else the furies would do zero damage against a Knight with higher defense than the Walrock's attack...

I remember the Heroes 2 and Heroes 3 system reduced damage done by 5% for ever difference in attack and defense, with a minimum damage of 5%. It's evidently not the case for Heroes 5, but I don't know how to calculate it here.

I dont think that even HIII works like that.The attack/defense both as primary and secondary skills negated,I used a 5 week calculation,the example you provided with 18 paladins.

Show me your calculations so I can repeat it.

Wait,why do hunters get the shots at full damage?Thy suffer the same ranged penalty as the crossbowmen.

Read my post carefully please.

Have you considered the fact that Master Hunters not only have the two advantages Marksmen possess, they also have Warding Arrow AND they will be getting shots at full damage, since Sylvan is peerless at ranged combat except possibly against Academy and so they must be rushed at?

No race except possibly Academy can hang back and engage Sylvan in a Ranged duel. They will have to charge. That's why the Master Hunters will be getting shots at full damage.

Again,considering its a 5th week,around 40.

Shall we put it to a vote? See if the majority of players think 40 Blood Furies are more dangerous or 3 Black Dragons?

Same for furries.You are using them early game,and can be usefull in late game as well.

Your sidestepping is amazing. Throughout the past few pages you've gone from saying Blood Furies are killer units even in the final battle to saying they're mostly useful early game. Why don't you just admit you were wrong and we can end this discussion?

You need around 35 furries.If you have two towns,that gives you 10 furries on the begining of the week,so youd have to preserve more than 25 furries in the previous battles.Highly luck dependable.But I forgot if he has the lightning boosting artifact.I know he has the slippers though.

Tell me how you get those 25 Blood Furies, given that you start with none and come under attack in the first week itself.

Buying troops also requires a new week to start.And as for your example,I ignored it because,like for the before example,bad luck.It didnt happen to me.And neither did lethos staying in town for a week happen to me either.

You were playing a different map. So try out the map first before saying anything else.

Yes,the first 7 attacks come daily,I remember now.As for the flaging of mines....Honestly,I forgot which mines I flagged in that week,but I think it were the northwestern ones.

There aren't any northwestern mines. Oh, just play the map again.

You asked for when such a situation is possible,not if it would be an opponent of merrit.Same as your "I can kill all of your furries even if I have to loose the whole army because of it" example.So dont attack my shoddy examples if you gave them first.

You need to reread my example again. I gave that example to show you conclusively how totally wrong you were when you said the Blood Furies have remarkable defensive properties such that they die as slowly as the Paladins. I gave that example to show you that the Blood Furies do not die not because they have those remarkable defensive properties but rather they are not targetted. I then challenged you such that, if you did not believe me, I could kill all your Blood Furies in three turns if I want to. I'll lose my entire army because of that dumb mistake - that's because when you're fighting Dungeon the unit you should target first is not the Blood Furies.

My example is airtight. Explain how your example is not shoddy.

Yes,and like I said zillions of times before,my furries will strike first in this case,thus your cerberi wont "kill all the furries" like you said earlier.

Show me the quote where I said my Cerberi will kill all your Blood Furies. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that.

Irrelevant?Then why did you say that youll render furries useless with cerberi when its obvious you wont.You know,now that I think about it,I might not even touch them with the furries.Attacking the lords and comboing them with raiders is much better.

Your Blood Furies get one attack then they must move or suffer the consequences. You might be able to hit the Pit Lords - or you might not, depending on alignment at the start. As for Raiders, sure, it's something you have to do as Dungeon. I won't contest that.

Wait,what?Dying is evidence of finnese?

No. The need for dancing and especially careful (note the especially; it can be argued that all creatures need careful control, but finesse creatures need it even more) control is evidence of finesse.

No,you said that youll render them useless with cerberi.Note that even if one furry survives,its not useless.In low numbers they indeed are finesse units(raider combo),but on their first(and usually second)attack,they are killers.

Show me the quote where I said I'll render them useless with Cerberi. Can't find it? You bet. I never anything like that.

As for them going from finesse to killers, I'll just quote Agrael. Leopards do not change their spots nor Succubi their masters. If the Blood Fury start off as a killer, they'll remain a killer for the whole battle. The only reasonable change a creature can undergo is from killer / finesse / supporter to cannon fodder (absorbing retaliation), and that is only if that creature does not have the no retaliation special.

That quote was aimed at you saying that furries die quicker than hunters and paladins,which is not the case.Against neutrals,neither die.Against a hero,they die at the same rate.

Show me the quote where I said that Blood Furies die quicker than Master Hunters and Paladins against a hero. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that. If anything, they'll die faster because they are dangerous killer units and warrant fast targetting.

Again,you classified them as killers.

I was speaking from your point of view. To me they are finesse; to you they are killers. The question as it is holds for you. Now answer it.

And what about demons and imps?If one of those is on the opposite side they cannot reach your paladins,but can reach your griffons,especially if you are unlucky for them to lend in the middle of enemy teritory(happened to me quite often).

Fool of your opponent to place their Demons and Imps away from where the battle is likely to be. Inferno has sufficiently many fast creatures to deploy them both beside the Pit Lords / Succubi Mistresses without shedding any defensive potential. Shall I give you a sample lineup?

[DaemianLucifer]

1. Prove that Blood Furies are not killers.

You cannot prove a personal oppinion.But go ahead,try all you want.Waste your time

2. Prove that DaemianLucifer is hardly the player of Heroes V that he thinks he is.

See,youre so wrong here because you asume I think of myself as some excelent unbeatable HV god.I dont.I didnt play it for very long(nor do I intend to),I had lots of luck during my play,and I said so numerous times.Excelent players dont rely on luck.I am seassoned heroes player,but not an excelent one.

3. Help DaemianLucifer to learn more about the game.

And again you go asuming I want to.Besides,you also need to learn to play dungeon before you go on trying to teach me anything about them.

You know DaemianLucifer? When I first started this I was looking for advice, hints on how to play Dungeon. When I first entered into this debate I was hoping to learn something from you. It has not happened; in fact it seems to me the reverse is happening. How ironic.

You think you taught me something I didnt already know? There you go asuming again...Tsk,tsk...

I remember the Heroes 2 and Heroes 3 system reduced damage done by 5% for ever difference in attack and defense, with a minimum damage of 5%. It's evidently not the case for Heroes 5, but I don't know how to calculate it here.

As I remember it it was 5% increase,2% decrease.

Yup,just checked the manual.The decrease is 2%,with a minimum of 30% in HIII.But in HV the reduction is close to 5%.

Show me your calculations so I can repeat it.

6 damage average(because I negated the skills and abilities both heroes would have),with cca 50 furries equals 3 dead paladins.

No race except possibly Academy can hang back and engage Sylvan in a Ranged duel. They will have to charge. That's why the Master Hunters will be getting shots at full damage.

Why rush them when I can spell them?And with master of ice/storms Ill even prevent them from shooting ever again.

Shall we put it to a vote? See if the majority of players think 40 Blood Furies are more dangerous or 3 Black Dragons?

Three attacks for 200-280 damage each,without retaliation,and without staying in enemy ranks against two atacks against two attacks for 135-210 each,with retaliation,with staying in enemy ranks.640 hp against 720 hp.Buffable against unbuffable.Cursable against uncursable.They even out at being the same level of danger.

Your sidestepping is amazing. Throughout the past few pages you've gone from saying Blood Furies are killer units even in the final battle to saying they're mostly useful early game. Why don't you just admit you were wrong and we can end this discussion?

Because I never said that final battle has to be month 6 week 3 day 5.You are the one that is constantly putting the final battle in the late game,not me.

Tell me how you get those 25 Blood Furies, given that you start with none and come under attack in the first week itself.

None?How come?You get quite a few in the begining of the map,plus you have two towns to buy them from.

You were playing a different map. So try out the map first before saying anything else.

So you are saying that lethos will always stay in town for a week without giving a chase?

There aren't any northwestern mines. Oh, just play the map again.

Sorry,I misstyped.I meant southwestern.

You need to reread my example again. I gave that example to show you conclusively how totally wrong you were when you said the Blood Furies have remarkable defensive properties such that they die as slowly as the Paladins. I gave that example to show you that the Blood Furies do not die not because they have those remarkable defensive properties but rather they are not targetted. I then challenged you such that, if you did not believe me, I could kill all your Blood Furies in three turns if I want to. I'll lose my entire army because of that dumb mistake - that's because when you're fighting Dungeon the unit you should target first is not the Blood Furies.

My example is airtight. Explain how your example is not shoddy.

Oh really?Then who do you target with your ranged unit first?Minotaurs?Assassins?Hydras?Matriarchs?A single dragon that you can reach with your slow walkers?Raiders that you,again,can reach with your walkers?No,your example is not airtight,and I never said that my example is not shoddy.

Show me the quote where I said my Cerberi will kill all your Blood Furies. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that.

I have no intetion of doing that.Just read bellow.

Your Blood Furies get one attack then they must move or suffer the consequences. You might be able to hit the Pit Lords - or you might not, depending on alignment at the start. As for Raiders, sure, it's something you have to do as Dungeon. I won't contest that.

I will be able to target either your lords,or kill the devil(s) you might have.And I wont have to move my furries because theyll have at least 5 attacks even if I let cerberi strike them to death.Thats 4 lizard bites,plus one full strike from the furries,plus one half from the furries(rounded down,and not counting the spare change).So why would I move them?Cerberi dont disable them at all.

No. The need for dancing and especially careful (note the especially; it can be argued that all creatures need careful control, but finesse creatures need it even more) control is evidence of finesse.

So mages are finesse units?They need a lot of control.Grffins and paladins are finesse?They do need to move a lot and controled.Dragons are finesse because they need to dance around their target in order to get the one behind it?

Show me the quote where I said I'll render them useless with Cerberi. Can't find it? You bet. I never anything like that.

You said that I will have to move backwards because your cerberi are threatening them,thus wasting a turn with them.And why would I be forced to do that?

As for them going from finesse to killers, I'll just quote Agrael. Leopards do not change their spots nor Succubi their masters. If the Blood Fury start off as a killer, they'll remain a killer for the whole battle. The only reasonable change a creature can undergo is from killer / finesse / supporter to cannon fodder (absorbing retaliation), and that is only if that creature does not have the no retaliation special.

See,thats not right.Hydras go from supporter(begining of combat)to killer(when you get them to enemy ranks).And so do squires,minos,and maybe demons and zombies.

Show me the quote where I said that Blood Furies die quicker than Master Hunters and Paladins against a hero. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that. If anything, they'll die faster because they are dangerous killer units and warrant fast targetting.

Say what?In the same post you say that they wont be targeted fast and that they will?

I was speaking from your point of view. To me they are finesse; to you they are killers. The question as it is holds for you. Now answer it.

No,you classified them as killers in your first classification post before we even started this debate.

Fool of your opponent to place their Demons and Imps away from where the battle is likely to be. Inferno has sufficiently many fast creatures to deploy them both beside the Pit Lords / Succubi Mistresses without shedding any defensive potential. Shall I give you a sample lineup?

There are lots of lineups that can be used.Heres one if you center the succubi:
Succubi in the center with demons in front,pit lords on the left,devils on the right.Devils can be moved so that imps and cerberi can be squized in.Nightmares to the side where there is more space.Griffins can land virtually anywhere after their dive in this situation,but usually it will be in the center of the map,where theyll offer no protection to the paladins whatsoever.

Lineup with succubi to the left(same if they were to the right):
Succubi with either imps or demons in front(better demons because they are slower).Pit lords to the left,followed by nightmares(or devils),then cerberi in the center in order to cover most ground,then devils(or nightmares).The remaining imps or demons go to the free space either next to cerberi,or to the far right.In this case griffins usually land near the middle of enemy territory(at least they did for me,beats me why),thus offering some small protection to the paladins if they attakc the lords(but only from imps,and maybe from nightmares and cerberi),again being useless as a meatshield.

Forget my comment about griffins dying,it was against wizard,my mistake.

[Banedon]

You cannot prove a personal oppinion.But go ahead,try all you want.Waste your time

That Blood Furies are in general finesse units is a truth. I could tell you that I view Zombies as killers and then challenge you to prove that I am wrong. Can you do it? More accuately, can you fail to do it?

See,youre so wrong here because you asume I think of myself as some excelent unbeatable HV god.I dont.I didnt play it for very long(nor do I intend to),I had lots of luck during my play,and I said so numerous times.Excelent players dont rely on luck.I am seassoned heroes player,but not an excelent one.

If you are seasoned, you must have known strategies such as placing the Pit Lords and Succubi Mistesses close by.

And again you go asuming I want to.Besides,you also need to learn to play dungeon before you go on trying to teach me anything about them.

If you do not want to learn anything, stop replying to this post. Easy.

6 damage average(because I negated the skills and abilities both heroes would have),with cca 50 furries equals 3 dead paladins.

Odd, I remembered quite clearly that it was 5% - must have been something seriously wrong with my source, except I can no longer remember where I got it from...

Anyway show me how you calculated, and 50 Furies killing 3 Paladins is quite normal, and so kiss goodbye to your statement that you can kill 4-6 Paladins in a hit.

Why rush them when I can spell them?And with master of ice/storms Ill even prevent them from shooting ever again.

And say goodbye to you mass area weapons like Meteor Shower? If I have to trade my Master Hunter stack for your hero, I wouldn't mind. I remove your greatest weapon from the game while you remove one of my (many) weapons.

Oh, and Master of Ice / Storms does not guarantee that the Master Hunters will never move, nor do they stop me from casting spells like Magical Immunity and Haste.

Three attacks for 200-280 damage each,without retaliation,and without staying in enemy ranks against two atacks against two attacks for 135-210 each,with retaliation,with staying in enemy ranks.640 hp against 720 hp.Buffable against unbuffable.Cursable against uncursable.They even out at being the same level of danger.

Tell you what. Let us put it to a vote. 3 Black Dragons or 40 Blood Furies? I have confidence that the Black Dragons win...outright.

PS: Your calculations are completely wrong. You did not factor in attack and defense at all.

Because I never said that final battle has to be month 6 week 3 day 5.You are the one that is constantly putting the final battle in the late game,not me.

And yet your posts include significant numbers of Paladins and (gasp) Archangels. Answer me that.

None?How come?You get quite a few in the begining of the map,plus you have two towns to buy them from.

OK, I was wrong - it appears you start with 30 of them. Too bad they all die to the first Warlock (and don't tell me you can preserve them; you can't if you deploy them and you cannot win if you don't deploy them).

So you are saying that lethos will always stay in town for a week without giving a chase?

No. Where did you get that impression? The fact that Lethos stayed in the castle for a week lends even more weight that we were playing different maps.

Sorry,I misstyped.I meant southwestern.

That was exactly where Shadya got caught and killed. If you do not replay the map I will stop replying to all you write about this - I cannot trust you, nor do I think anyone can.

Oh really?Then who do you target with your ranged unit first?Minotaurs?Assassins?Hydras?Matriarchs?A single dragon that you can reach with your slow walkers?Raiders that you,again,can reach with your walkers?No,your example is not airtight,and I never said that my example is not shoddy.

You have not shown what's wrong with my example; you've only asked me what I would do in a normal battle against Dungeon if I did not target the Blood Furies (which you can be quite sure I will not). And - fix your own shoddy examples. Don't use flawed examples in debates; they weaken your credibility.

Up against Dungeon with Inferno - Gate in middle of battlefield. Target Shadow Matriaches first, launching Meteor Shower at them (or Fireball, depending on how tightly they are clustered. If Dungeon charges use Gated creatures and fight it out. If Dungeon hangs back advance Cerberi and Nightmares and Archdevils slightly, then move when the Gated creatures arrive.

I have no intetion of doing that.Just read bellow.

Do you refer to the next quote you made? If so I'll point out that 'suffer the consequences' is a long, long way from 'kill them all'.

I will be able to target either your lords,or kill the devil(s) you might have.And I wont have to move my furries because theyll have at least 5 attacks even if I let cerberi strike them to death.Thats 4 lizard bites,plus one full strike from the furries,plus one half from the furries(rounded down,and not counting the spare change).So why would I move them?Cerberi dont disable them at all.

Provided, of course, your Grim Raiders stay alive. Why would I let them live if they're contributing so much to your offense? They are finesse creatures and yet you're using them as killers, exposing them to assault so soon.

Let's get one thing clear too so we can view the battle with more wisdom. In the beginning I Gate in the middle of the map. Do you take the offensive path or do you hang back? Different strokes for different situations, and my strategies will change depending on what you do.

So mages are finesse units?They need a lot of control.Grffins and paladins are finesse?They do need to move a lot and controled.Dragons are finesse because they need to dance around their target in order to get the one behind it?

Note the 'especially'. Mages are easy to use; you just aim Fireball at wherever your target is. Griffins are finesse; they need Battle Dive (which must be aimed well - you need to read your opponent's mind), and you must not let them take the hits too often. Paladins are killers; you just align them and charge. Black Dragons are killers as well; getting to the one behind the target is hardly 'dancing'.

You said that I will have to move backwards because your cerberi are threatening them,thus wasting a turn with them.And why would I be forced to do that?

To this I'll just refer you to the situation above. Are you rushing or are you hanging back after I Gate?

See,thats not right.Hydras go from supporter(begining of combat)to killer(when you get them to enemy ranks).And so do squires,minos,and maybe demons and zombies.

Hydras are SUPPORTERS? Whatever put that into your head? They do not become killer units as well; they remain cannon fodder. They only end up doing because all the killers are dead.

Say what?In the same post you say that they wont be targeted fast and that they will?

Show me the quote where I say they will not be targetted fast and they will. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that.

No,you classified them as killers in your first classification post before we even started this debate.

And to think I thought we were debating because you have always thought of Blood Furies as killers. Silly me.

If you're referring to Cerberi and Nightmares, I have since switched Cerberi to finesse and please, my original classification placed Nightmares as finesse.

Griffins can land virtually anywhere after their dive in this situation,but usually it will be in the center of the map,where theyll offer no protection to the paladins whatsoever.

The very fact that they are there and capable of attacking means protection. What exactly did you think it is, that the Griffins must be beside the Paladins such that attackers have one less square to hit from? In the same way, a Blood Fury stack in the middle of the battlefield covers the Hydras, Black Dragons etc. that are across the battlefield.

[DaemianLucifer]

If you are seasoned, you must have known strategies such as placing the Pit Lords and Succubi Mistesses close by.

And who says I didnt?

If you do not want to learn anything, stop replying to this post. Easy.

I never said I dont,just that you didnt teach me anything I didnt know already.

Odd, I remembered quite clearly that it was 5% - must have been something seriously wrong with my source, except I can no longer remember where I got it from...

5% is the increase it gets,up to 400%.

And say goodbye to you mass area weapons like Meteor Shower? If I have to trade my Master Hunter stack for your hero, I wouldn't mind. I remove your greatest weapon from the game while you remove one of my (many) weapons.

I can still use chain lighting or ice circle.And if your master hunters are big enough that I cannot dispose of them with a single empowered meteor shower,then yes,they are your strongest weapon and using ice bolt/storm bolt on them is the way to go.

Oh, and Master of Ice / Storms does not guarantee that the Master Hunters will never move, nor do they stop me from casting spells like Magical Immunity and Haste.

MI doesnt work against warlock.Someone tested it.

PS: Your calculations are completely wrong. You did not factor in attack and defense at all.

I did once before,and it was nearly the same.

And yet your posts include significant numbers of Paladins and (gasp) Archangels. Answer me that.

No,they include 1 angel.And that is just a maybe.And you were the one that posted the number of paladins,not me.

OK, I was wrong - it appears you start with 30 of them. Too bad they all die to the first Warlock (and don't tell me you can preserve them; you can't if you deploy them and you cannot win if you don't deploy them).

Ture,but you still can split 10 furries,and you cannot split a single raider.

No. Where did you get that impression? The fact that Lethos stayed in the castle for a week lends even more weight that we were playing different maps.

You were the one saying that just because it happened to you once it must always happen.It didnt happen to me.

That was exactly where Shadya got caught and killed. If you do not replay the map I will stop replying to all you write about this - I cannot trust you, nor do I think anyone can.

It didnt happen to me.But you are right about one thing:Shadya was always targeted in my game as well.The difference was that my shadya was in town and aaeglr was out.

Do you refer to the next quote you made? If so I'll point out that 'suffer the consequences' is a long, long way from 'kill them all'.

No,but incapacitate them,or force to retreat if you want them to live is the same as kill them all.

Provided, of course, your Grim Raiders stay alive. Why would I let them live if they're contributing so much to your offense? They are finesse creatures and yet you're using them as killers, exposing them to assault so soon.

They need to stay alive just until I kill your pit fiends and devils,if you have them.

Let's get one thing clear too so we can view the battle with more wisdom. In the beginning I Gate in the middle of the map. Do you take the offensive path or do you hang back? Different strokes for different situations, and my strategies will change depending on what you do.

I will concentrate on your pit fiends and devils(if you have them).Also depends if I have dragons or not.After I get rid of those,Ill just spell you and repel your attacks with hydras and minos.

Note the 'especially'. Mages are easy to use; you just aim Fireball at wherever your target is.

What if your ranged attack is stronger?Which is the case as soon as you acumulate some 3-4 weeks of them.

Paladins are killers; you just align them and charge.

And after that?You dance around the opponent to get more damage.

Black Dragons are killers as well; getting to the one behind the target is hardly 'dancing'.

If the target dances around dragons,you have to dance back.

To this I'll just refer you to the situation above. Are you rushing or are you hanging back after I Gate?

Read above.

Hydras are SUPPORTERS? Whatever put that into your head? They do not become killer units as well; they remain cannon fodder. They only end up doing because all the killers are dead.

Hydras are fodder? And they certainly do become killers if you utilise TA with them.

Show me the quote where I say they will not be targetted fast and they will. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that.

Memory failure?Here you go:

I gave that example to show you that the Blood Furies do not die not because they have those remarkable defensive properties but rather they are not targetted.

If anything, they'll die faster because they are dangerous killer units and warrant fast targetting.

The very fact that they are there and capable of attacking means protection. What exactly did you think it is, that the Griffins must be beside the Paladins such that attackers have one less square to hit from? In the same way, a Blood Fury stack in the middle of the battlefield covers the Hydras, Black Dragons etc. that are across the battlefield.

Considering that most enemies will act between your griffins first and third attack that leaves paladins very unsupported for that time.

[Elvin]

@Banedon
Actually it was something in between a compliment to your resilience and 'I can't believe they are still arguing on that'

[Gaidal Cain]

OK, I was wrong - it appears you start with 30 of them. Too bad they all die to the first Warlock (and don't tell me you can preserve them; you can't if you deploy them and you cannot win if you don't deploy them).

If memory serves, I could. They're to fragile to be of much use unupgraded, and aaeglr shouold have summon phoenix to use instead.

[winterfate]

Banedon wrote:

I hope that this discussion does these things:

1. Prove that Blood Furies are not killers.
2. Prove that DaemianLucifer is hardly the player of Heroes V that he thinks he is.
3. Help DaemianLucifer to learn more about the game.

Hm....at least you know why you are arguing (at this point DL is just doing it because he loves to argue . Then again, if he weren't doing that, I'd be concerned, because he would be acting different from how he usually acts .

As for your list...let's see:

1. Well, IMO, they aren't killers...but they aren't finesse either (trying killing even 10 Blood Furies with 100 Peasants . Besides, their damage output is obscene, they are super quick and they even have No Retaliation).

2&3. Good luck with that!

[Banedon]

And who says I didnt?

You. You yourself talked about Inferno placing Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords at two opposite sides of the map. If you had known you would not have done this - in fact, I wager that if you had really played MP against other human players, you would not have done so.

I never said I dont,just that you didnt teach me anything I didnt know already.

Suit yourself. I certainly think the other way. I was going to make a list of all the things I posted but went unanswered, but I don't have the time right now.

I can still use chain lighting or ice circle.And if your master hunters are big enough that I cannot dispose of them with a single empowered meteor shower,then yes,they are your strongest weapon and using ice bolt/storm bolt on them is the way to go.

You yourself said you never cast Chain Lightning, and Frost Ring can be tough to use if I - again - do not deploy the Master Hunters and Druid Elders close by. Up against Dungeon and high probability of facing powerful area spells, of course you split up.

How much damage do you think your Empowered Meteor Shower can do? If you can kill all Master Hunters in a hit you would have an unstoppable advantage, incidentally.

MI doesnt work against warlock.Someone tested it.

Who did? And I'm betting that Magical Immunity at least forces Warlock to invoke Irresistable Magic.

I did once before,and it was nearly the same.

To your 50 Blood Furies I have 44 * 5 (=220 Conscripts) + ~40 from heroes I hire = 260 Conscripts. Conscripts deal 1-2 damage. Totalled, my Conscripts deal 260 - 520 damage. That's more than Blood Furies. Look! Conscripts are killers!

No,they include 1 angel.And that is just a maybe.And you were the one that posted the number of paladins,not me.

Who builds the Altar of Light if they only get to use one Angel? Who builds Archangels in the same week they build Angels (as they must if they only have one Archangel? As for Paladins, find me the quote where I gave a specific number of them. Can't find it? You bet. For the third post in the row I have had to use this phrase.

Ture,but you still can split 10 furries,and you cannot split a single raider.

Find me the quote where I said you can defend a castle with one Raider. Can't find it? You bet. Gods above, stop putting words into my mouth. I know you read a lot of topics here and are bound to get sidetracked, but if you show me so little respect that you misunderstand my posts, I don't see why I should bother reading yours.

@The Cultists: Per my word I will refuse to say anything until you replay the map.

No,but incapacitate them,or force to retreat if you want them to live is the same as kill them all.

Hardly. Killing half the Marksmen stack in a battle and placing a creature in front of them incapacitates them, but not 'kills them all'.

They need to stay alive just until I kill your pit fiends and devils,if you have them.

An amazing simplification. I need my Inferno army to kill all your creatures. Then I can let you kill all of mine.

I will concentrate on your pit fiends and devils(if you have them).Also depends if I have dragons or not.After I get rid of those,Ill just spell you and repel your attacks with hydras and minos.

Your sentence is again simplification; I could rephrase it as "I will kill your entire army, no matter what your army may be". Stop avoiding the thrust of the question and just answer it. Will you be advancing or will you hang back?

What if your ranged attack is stronger?Which is the case as soon as you acumulate some 3-4 weeks of them.

Then just shoot instead. Does it take much education to distinguish between which is larger, 100 or 200?

And after that?You dance around the opponent to get more damage.

Then just move. Does it take much education to see which square you attack from results in the largest damage?

If the target dances around dragons,you have to dance back.

Explain. Target dances around Dragons; you can just hit them back. Why the fuss?

Hydras are fodder? And they certainly do become killers if you utilise TA with them.

I thought about it last night and to say Hydras are Fodder is wrong. Hydras are killers - but they must get in range first. This makes them weak killers. There's no category for this and to list them as killers would be outright wrong, since all the other killers I mentioned are fast, effective and brutal. I could create one I suppose, the 'weak killer'. Into this group I would place the Blood Furies and Cerberi as well.

Memory failure?Here you go:

Show me exactly where the contradiction arises. I can see no problem, just more misunderstandings on your part.

Considering that most enemies will act between your griffins first and third attack that leaves paladins very unsupported for that time.

Here you go again. First you say the Paladins are unsupported. Then you say the Griffins can take hits for the Paladins. Then you go back to saying that the Paladins are unsupported. Oh well.

I'll say so once again: because the Griffins are there and threatening to move, they are supporting the Paladins. How different things would be if the Griffins were far away! Remove the Griffins from the battle for the moment. Can you charge the Paladins? Of course you can. Put the Griffins back in. Can you charge the Paladins? Your units are moving before the Griffins move again, so for the duration of that interval there are essentially no Griffins. Can you still charge the Paladins? This time the answer is: maybe not. The mere presence of the Griffins change the battle.

If memory serves, I could. They're to fragile to be of much use unupgraded, and aaeglr shouold have summon phoenix to use instead.

Things would be much easier if I had that spell. I didn't however; I had some bad experiences with Markal using Summoning Magic in the Necropolis campaign.

Hm....at least you know why you are arguing (at this point DL is just doing it because he loves to argue . Then again, if he weren't doing that, I'd be concerned, because he would be acting different from how he usually acts .

The way I view it, DaemianLucifer continues to argue because his ego does not allow him to admit he was wrong. It's normal, it's natural - I remember how I pressed some impossible arguments against csarmi because of the very same reasons. Two months in the future, maybe he will understand more about himself.

1. Well, IMO, they aren't killers...but they aren't finesse either (trying killing even 10 Blood Furies with 100 Peasants . Besides, their damage output is obscene, they are super quick and they even have No Retaliation).

It can be done, but that makes them finesse because you have to run around a lot. I'll draw a comparison. If you classify Blood Furies as killers because they can kill 100 Peasants, you ought also to classify Sprites as killers. Should you, given that Sprites are (like Blood Furies) fragile and high-priority?

[winterfate]

Banedon wrote:

It can be done, but that makes them finesse because you have to run around a lot. I'll draw a comparison. If you classify Blood Furies as killers because they can kill 100 Peasants, you ought also to classify Sprites as killers. Should you, given that Sprites are (like Blood Furies) fragile and high-priority?

I think you misunderstood me about the peasant example. I meant the 100 Peasants defeating the 10 Blood Furies (which I don't think can be done without the aid of a hero).

As for the Sprites being killer....they are definitely killers; maybe even more so than Blood Furies (and they can also double as cannon fodder; usually unintentionally, as towers and ranged units love to attack them). However, I think a new category should be made (the finesse-killer).

As of now, that list has Blood Furies and Sprites.

Note: Any indication that I am biased towards Sylvan is to be ignored
(because it's true, I love Sylvan ).

[DaemianLucifer]

You. You yourself talked about Inferno placing Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords at two opposite sides of the map. If you had known you would not have done this - in fact, I wager that if you had really played MP against other human players, you would not have done so.

So,not only are you arogant enough to say that you thought me something but you dare say that you read my mind about what I know and what I dont know?And I specifically said that it was an example of what might happen,not what I would do.Using your logic I can say that you lost every battle against dungeon,because,in your own words,you can kill the furries even if it means loosing your whole army."I might" and "I can" are not the same as "I always do",nor even "I do that sometimes".

Suit yourself. I certainly think the other way. I was going to make a list of all the things I posted but went unanswered, but I don't have the time right now.

I thought about doing that as well,but I decided I wont because I stopped taking you serriously loooong ago.

You yourself said you never cast Chain Lightning, and Frost Ring can be tough to use if I - again - do not deploy the Master Hunters and Druid Elders close by. Up against Dungeon and high probability of facing powerful area spells, of course you split up.

See,again confusing words.I said "I never did",which doesnt mean "I never will",nor "no one ever does".Deploy your units however you want,I wont always target your hunters first,only if they are the biggest threat.

How much damage do you think your Empowered Meteor Shower can do? If you can kill all Master Hunters in a hit you would have an unstoppable advantage, incidentally.

Without luck,and without any boosting artifacts,with just 10 spellpower I can do 330 damage with empowered MS.Say good bye to three weeks of master hunters,plus some other troops as well.

Who did? And I'm betting that Magical Immunity at least forces Warlock to invoke Irresistable Magic.

There you go.Feel free to scout the entire thread if you want.Check it yourself,I wouldnt mind knowing for sure if it is like adicto said or not.

To your 50 Blood Furies I have 44 * 5 (=220 Conscripts) + ~40 from heroes I hire = 260 Conscripts. Conscripts deal 1-2 damage. Totalled, my Conscripts deal 260 - 520 damage. That's more than Blood Furies. Look! Conscripts are killers!

And they suffer retaliation after that.And while they do 260-520 damage those same furries would do 400-560 damage(double the initiative).Besides,I did say that conscripts turn to killers when they do get to fight.Dont believe me?Try battling them with devils.It is a very long and tough fight,and I got to respect them after that.

Who builds the Altar of Light if they only get to use one Angel? Who builds Archangels in the same week they build Angels (as they must if they only have one Archangel? As for Paladins, find me the quote where I gave a specific number of them. Can't find it? You bet. For the third post in the row I have had to use this phrase.

Sorry,it was about 18 cavaliers.I made a mistake,I admit,but thats just because I didnt make a distinction between upgraded and unupgraded troops naywhere in here.If I did,Id have to rwerite my whole post about aaeglr leading blackies,because I had only shadows.

Find me the quote where I said you can defend a castle with one Raider. Can't find it? You bet. Gods above, stop putting words into my mouth. I know you read a lot of topics here and are bound to get sidetracked, but if you show me so little respect that you misunderstand my posts, I don't see why I should bother reading yours.

Interesting how you acuse me of the same thing you are doing.I had to repeat you the same thing in 3 or 4 posts about aligning cerberi because you didnt read me thoroughly enough.

Maybe I got side tracked here,but my original thought was that Id prefer preserving 10 furries that 1 raider because they can benefit more in defending a castle.Dispute that.

Hardly. Killing half the Marksmen stack in a battle and placing a creature in front of them incapacitates them, but not 'kills them all'.

Might mean as well.If one attack of a melee unit thats placed in front of them halves them,the next will kill them.Are you honestly going to use their melee attack against that stack?Well,only for stealing retal,but after that,they are gone.

An amazing simplification. I need my Inferno army to kill all your creatures. Then I can let you kill all of mine.

The difference being that inferno hero is way behind a warlock in the terms of destructive magic,and will always loose such a duel.You must advance your creatures if you want to win.And advancing a defending hydra is devastating.

Your sentence is again simplification; I could rephrase it as "I will kill your entire army, no matter what your army may be". Stop avoiding the thrust of the question and just answer it. Will you be advancing or will you hang back?

Like I said,I will focus my raiders,my assassins,my furries and my matriarchs(probably),and any dragons I might have on killing your fiends and devils,if you have them.After that,I defend with the survivors(which would be all but raiders and dragons),and kill you off with spells.

Then just shoot instead. Does it take much education to distinguish between which is larger, 100 or 200?

And thats what I was going for.Shooting with mages is not simple as casting spells with them because of the nature of their attack.Of course,if you are going to shoot just a single random creature thats opposite them,then you arent using their attack to the fullest.

Then just move. Does it take much education to see which square you attack from results in the largest damage?

No,but thats called dancing as well.

Explain. Target dances around Dragons; you can just hit them back. Why the fuss?

Because you dont want to use your dragons just to hit one creature,youd always search for a possibility to hit two stacks,and if you hit a stronger one by getting retal from a weaker one,thats even better.

I thought about it last night and to say Hydras are Fodder is wrong. Hydras are killers - but they must get in range first. This makes them weak killers. There's no category for this and to list them as killers would be outright wrong, since all the other killers I mentioned are fast, effective and brutal. I could create one I suppose, the 'weak killer'. Into this group I would place the Blood Furies and Cerberi as well.

Actually hydras are slow killers.Fiends fall under this category as well.

Show me exactly where the contradiction arises. I can see no problem, just more misunderstandings on your part.

First one says they do not die fast because they are not targeted,second says that they die fast because they are targeted

Here you go again. First you say the Paladins are unsupported. Then you say the Griffins can take hits for the Paladins. Then you go back to saying that the Paladins are unsupported. Oh well.

See,you blame me about missunderstanding you,and here you missunderstand me.Ok,heres the complete explanation of my words:

Griffins dive up,paladins charge(and are possibly buffed by a hero,maybe even inquisitors),griffins land.Now the crucial is where.If they land somewhere around the middle,paladins take all the hits before griffins get to act again.If they land in enemy teritory there is a chance that some(maybe one or two)of the stacks will target them instead of paladins,thus they contribute as supporters.But thats a lot of ifs.Thats why I initially said that your paladins arent supported by the griffins.

Things would be much easier if I had that spell. I didn't however; I had some bad experiences with Markal using Summoning Magic in the Necropolis campaign.

And so you go ahead saying that something is impossible just because you couldnt do it?

The way I view it, DaemianLucifer continues to argue because his ego does not allow him to admit he was wrong. It's normal, it's natural - I remember how I pressed some impossible arguments against csarmi because of the very same reasons. Two months in the future, maybe he will understand more about himself.

Yeah,like that will happen.The only person here that changed my oppinion about arguing was JJ when he convinced me not to do it serriously,because its so much easier.Now I at least understand why he does it.Its fun

It can be done, but that makes them finesse because you have to run around a lot. I'll draw a comparison. If you classify Blood Furies as killers because they can kill 100 Peasants, you ought also to classify Sprites as killers. Should you, given that Sprites are (like Blood Furies) fragile and high-priority?

And paladins move a lot as well.But that still doesnt classify them as finesse in your book,does it?

Personally,I preffer classifying units compared to other same tier ones,and not to all other units.

[Gaidal Cain]

If memory serves, I could. They're to fragile to be of much use unupgraded, and aaeglr shouold have summon phoenix to use instead.

Things would be much easier if I had that spell. I didn't however; I had some bad experiences with Markal using Summoning Magic in the Necropolis campaign.

No offence, but maybe it's you who should replay that campaign. Summon Phoenix will make a huge difference on the Cultists, since armies are small but hero levels are high (This of course has less of a bearing on the rest of the discussion where that isn't true in general).

[Banedon]

So,not only are you arogant enough to say that you thought me something but you dare say that you read my mind about what I know and what I dont know?And I specifically said that it was an example of what might happen,not what I would do.Using your logic I can say that you lost every battle against dungeon,because,in your own words,you can kill the furries even if it means loosing your whole army."I might" and "I can" are not the same as "I always do",nor even "I do that sometimes".

I had to sound arrogant because it was the only way of getting your attention that I am being extremely serious and to show you - in stark terms, because after trying for pages in lesser terms you have not seen anything - just how wrong some of your arguments are. I cannot read your mind and no one can, but I can infer from what you write. The fact that I'm using the word 'fact' allows you to infer that I know the meaning of the word 'fact'. But how do you know I know?

As for what might happen, no competent player is going to expose himself like this. It is not something that 'might' happen, it is simply something that will not happen. There's a possibility that I might collapse and die before I finish typing this post, but there's no possibility that I will target all my creatures at the Blood Furies without some reward from outside the game (eg. you pay me $100 to sacrifice all my creatures).

I thought about doing that as well,but I decided I wont because I stopped taking you serriously loooong ago.

Great idea. We'll both come up with lists. I'll see what I can refute on yours.

See,again confusing words.I said "I never did",which doesnt mean "I never will",nor "no one ever does".Deploy your units however you want,I wont always target your hunters first,only if they are the biggest threat.

We are all creatures of habit DaemianLucifer. If you never cast Chain Lightning there's a very very good chance you will not cast it if we ever get into a grudge match. And what you said - that you will target only the biggest threat on the battlefied - agrees completely with my assessment. Blood Furies are not the biggest threat on the battlefield so I do not target them and so they do not die. Happy with that?

Without luck,and without any boosting artifacts,with just 10 spellpower I can do 330 damage with empowered MS.Say good bye to three weeks of master hunters,plus some other troops as well.

Three weeks is hardly what you can call 'all Master Hunters'. You just refuted your own words. It is very statements like this one that force me to call into question all the facts that you claim are facts. See, you once said you could kill 4-6 Paladins with one strike from the Blood Furies as well. I ask you closely, ask you to perform calculations and suddenly that number drops to three. How do you want me - anyone - to believe you?

There you go.Feel free to scout the entire thread if you want.Check it yourself,I wouldnt mind knowing for sure if it is like adicto said or not.

I know someone has said it before, and I would not mind testing it myself if I knew how to operate the editor (will work it out eventually, just not yet). Again, I'm betting the Warlock has to use Irresistable Magic.

And they suffer retaliation after that.And while they do 260-520 damage those same furries would do 400-560 damage(double the initiative).Besides,I did say that conscripts turn to killers when they do get to fight.Dont believe me?Try battling them with devils.It is a very long and tough fight,and I got to respect them after that.

Don't take my point out of the context. The point is:

Pure damage is nothing. Blood Furies have smaller attack and defense skills than Black Dragons and will have less EHP (effective hit points) and damage.

And I ask you once more. Do you want to make this into a poll to see just how many people are on your side? 40 Blood Furies against 3 Black Dragons - which is more dangerous?

Sorry,it was about 18 cavaliers.I made a mistake,I admit,but thats just because I didnt make a distinction between upgraded and unupgraded troops naywhere in here.If I did,Id have to rwerite my whole post about aaeglr leading blackies,because I had only shadows.

Let's just say that the 18 Cavaliers were amassed on Week 5, not on Month 6 Week 3 Day 5.

Maybe I got side tracked here,but my original thought was that Id prefer preserving 10 furries that 1 raider because they can benefit more in defending a castle.Dispute that.

Sure you would. But you don't have a choice. The AI will target the Blood Furies, and if you have only these two stacks left you can't go to Lethos and say 'please cast Ice Bolt on the Grim Raider'.

Might mean as well.If one attack of a melee unit thats placed in front of them halves them,the next will kill them.Are you honestly going to use their melee attack against that stack?Well,only for stealing retal,but after that,they are gone.

No I will not be using the melee attack, and no, it does not mean the melee unit is the one dealing the damage. If I Gate 1 Familiar beside your Marksmen I have incapacitated them for a round (unless you spare melee units - Squires and Peasants, which you should) to clear them. You can incapacitate units without killing them. In Heroes 4 a Hypnotized unit is essentially incapacitated; in Heroes 5 a unit under Puppet Master is the same.

The difference being that inferno hero is way behind a warlock in the terms of destructive magic,and will always loose such a duel.You must advance your creatures if you want to win.And advancing a defending hydra is devastating.

Your choice is to hang back then? Alright. After my Gated creatures arrive I advance my three melee offensive units - the Cerberi, Nightmares and Archdevils - forward. They will not move so far as to venture within range of the Hydras, and they will attempt to stay out of Blood Fury / Black Dragon / Grim Raider range as much as possible. Your move.

Incidentally, a battle can be won without Destructive magic. If it couldn't Chaos would be far and away the most powerful race in Heroes 4.

Like I said,I will focus my raiders,my assassins,my furries and my matriarchs(probably),and any dragons I might have on killing your fiends and devils,if you have them.After that,I defend with the survivors(which would be all but raiders and dragons),and kill you off with spells.

First you say you are hanging back. Then you say you are taking the initiative. Oh bother. Are you advancing or will you hang back? Please don't say it is Inferno who will have to move first. Inferno Gates with the first move such that the choice lies with Dungeon.

And thats what I was going for.Shooting with mages is not simple as casting spells with them because of the nature of their attack.Of course,if you are going to shoot just a single random creature thats opposite them,then you arent using their attack to the fullest.

Does it take much skill to note if two creatures are in the same line? Utilizing Mages is a whole lot easier than utilizing Sprites.

No,but thats called dancing as well.

I see. Even plain moving over to your opponent's line is 'dancing'. Very well. All creatures are finesse. There are no supporters, no cannon fodder, no killers.

Because you dont want to use your dragons just to hit one creature,youd always search for a possibility to hit two stacks,and if you hit a stronger one by getting retal from a weaker one,thats even better.

Does it take much skill to see if two creatures are highlighted when you move the cursor from one direction? You do not understand at all. When moving Sprites - as I found from using 10 Sprites against 27 Deep Hydras, a battle you said you was absurdly easy but never rose to the challenge to attempt - you not only have to take care to move them out of the Hydras' range, you must also factor in freak morale bonuses, where the Hydras are likely to move next and whether the Sprites will be able to survive the incoming envelopment. This is true finesse. What is there to Black Dragons?

Actually hydras are slow killers.Fiends fall under this category as well.

Pit Lords are much more endowed at Ranged combat than Hydras with their two spells.

First one says they do not die fast because they are not targeted,second says that they die fast because they are targeted

First refers to Blood Furies; second refers to Paladins and Master Hunters. Easy.

Griffins dive up,paladins charge(and are possibly buffed by a hero,maybe even inquisitors),griffins land.Now the crucial is where.If they land somewhere around the middle,paladins take all the hits before griffins get to act again.If they land in enemy teritory there is a chance that some(maybe one or two)of the stacks will target them instead of paladins,thus they contribute as supporters.But thats a lot of ifs.Thats why I initially said that your paladins arent supported by the griffins.

The real misunderstanding is simple. I was assuming you were fighting an 'opponent with merrit'. Turns out you're up against the AI (your assertion that there is a chance that some of the stacks target Griffins instead of Paladins makes it so - a human player will be unaffected by where the Griffins are so long as the Griffins are within attacking range [vice versa] of all their creatures). If you're only going to duel the AI then there's no point even continuing this.

And so you go ahead saying that something is impossible just because you couldnt do it?

No, but the very fact that I couldn't would make me skeptical enough to require concrete proof. Suppose I tell you I can beat 3 Titans with 20 Plague Zombies. You try it and find it impossible. What will your reaction be?

I can give you examples of such contentious issues. Bandobras Took once told me that Marksmen lose to Lizard Warriors in a straight fight. I could not believe it - until he showed me the calculations. Then I accepted it as a fact. csarmi once said that it was possible to achieve more than 200 movement in Heroes 4 in a turn. I could not believe it either - until he detailed exactly how he managed. I do not believe you can leave Shadya / Raelag by the Ore Pits and not get hunted. I cannot believe it until you back it up with proof. You have not done so so far. All you've given me are words, and by those same words I tell you I can beat 3 Titans with 20 Plague Zombies - heck, I can beat 30 Titans with 1 Plague Zombie.

And paladins move a lot as well.But that still doesnt classify them as finesse in your book,does it?

Yes, and Black Dragons are finesse, Archangels are finesse, Archdevils are finesse. *Sarcasm*

Personally,I preffer classifying units compared to other same tier ones,and not to all other units.

I do not. If you do then you'll have no choice but to classify all level 1s as killers (you have no choice but to use level 1s in the first few days of any map) when some are clearly not so.

And here is the list of all I've seen that you've not answered:

1. You cannot beat Ranged guardians with Blood Furies without losses if you do not have Hydras yet. The post in question is on the 13th page when you said the answer was to get Hydras.
2. Your original statement on page 15 asserted that if Blood Furies die you need to change your strategies. The same post asserted that the Blood Furies survive better than Paladins because the Paladins stay deep in enemy territory when they strike. I later pointed out that the Blood Furies cannot survive if they are targetted and they survive better simply because they are not targetted. You have not answered this point; you have only sidestepped.
3. Your post on page 15 challenged me to play games against a non-AI Warlock. Then your post on page 16 said that you have not fought an opponent with merit but just the AI. A contradiction I did not bring up.
4. Your post on page 16 asserted that Imperial Griffins land in awkward positions after their Battle Dive wherupon they die. I pointed out that it is absurdly stupid to target Imperial Griffins instead of the Paladins that are already in one's face. You have not answered this point; you have changed your stance instead. Strike one for me.
5. You again asserted on page 16 that the Blood Furies cannot be targetted because all you had to do was deal with the fast melee and ranged creatures. I challenged that fact and brought up the duel between any race and Dungeon where I wipe out all Blood Furies before they move three times. You have avoided this challenge and then changed your stance again. Strike two for me.
6. You argued on page 16 that Expert Logistics allows Shadya and Raelag not to get caught outside the town. I gave you two examples from my own experiences to show that it is not so. You answered by saying that perhaps the AI scripts have been changed. I then challenged you to try the map in v1.4. You have not done so, you have instead continued to theorycraft.
7. Your post on page 17 argued that Blood Furies fail to be killers only when you have a few of them. I replied that I view 20 Archmagi as much more dangerous creatures than 20 Blood Furies, showing you that it is the trait of the creature that matters most, not their numbers. You have not answered this point.
8. On page 17 you argued that the Imperial Griffins get targetted instead of the Paladins because the units that attack the Imperial Griffins cannot reach the Paladins. I contested this fact and pointed out that it is entirely possible to place the entire Inferno army around the Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords where the Paladins are likely to be. You have not answered this point and instead changed your stance. Strike three.
9. Your posts on page 17 asserted that Paladins suffer because they will have to take full damage from the Succubi Mistresses. I gave you the tools to counter those defenses. You did not point out any weaknesses with my method or any counter counters.
10. You argued on page 17 that the Blood Furies occupying the Nightmares and Cerberi is a good thing. I pointed out that you would be spending a killer unit (at least to you) to occupy your opponent's finesse units. You have not answered this point other than a weak attempt to classify Nightmares and Cerberi as killers.
11. You mentioned on page 17 how it is possible to meet one Angel on the battlefield. I retorted that this is an impossibility; the side who builds the Altar of Light will certianly hole up in his castle and wait for the start of the next week and his two more Angels before engaging. You have not answered this point.
12. You argued on page 17 how Master Hunters should not be considered as killers because at half range they deal just as much damage as Blood Furies. I pointed out that Sylvan is unmatched at Ranged units by all races except possibly Academy and will have to be rushed. This gives the Master Hunters shots at full damage. You have not answered this point for every race except Dungeon, where we continue to debate.
13. You argued on page 17 how supported and protected are two different things, and that you will protect Paladins but not support them. I gave you a direct quote with you using the word 'supported'. You then left the point ignored.
14. You argued on page 17 ~ 18 that 40 Blood Furies were more dangerous than 3 Black Dragons. I challenged you to put that to open vote. You have not accepted. You have only answered that the Blood Furies deal more damage but you did not factor in attack / defense.
15. You mentioned on page 18 that Hydras are Supporters. I attacked that point; you ignored it hence.

No offence, but maybe it's you who should replay that campaign. Summon Phoenix will make a huge difference on the Cultists, since armies are small but hero levels are high (This of course has less of a bearing on the rest of the discussion where that isn't true in general).

I'd rather not replay the campaign since I've yet to finish with them all, but yes, you're probably right - Summon Phoenix would have made a huge difference. I did not know what I would be up against when I built Raelag and assumed it would involve massive battles as with Markal. That's why I left it aside. Strike one for Gaidal Cain over me.

[Mytical]

Well a very thorough debate so far (both sides). I will only bring up one small insignificant tidbit Banedon, then I will let you and DL duke it out over opinons. You noted above that 20 Archmagi are stronger then 20 Blood furies. That is not really debatable, Archimagi are indeed more of a threat the Blood Furies. You might as well said 20 pit lords, or 20 dragons, or anything similar as well however. The fact is the archmagi are a tier higher. Of course they are more dangerous. Now name a teir 2 creature that 1 on 1 is more dangerous then the Furies? Without factoring in growth, cost, or heroes, there is none.

Ok please continue to argue over opinons and go about your business. Thankies.

[Banedon]

Valid point Mytical, but Archmagi reproduce at 5 per week and so do Blood Furies. My original point was that the type of creature is more important than the number of them. If it's the second week and you show up with 200 Plague Zombies, I will be forced to view them as (weak) killers, but the problems with this example are quite obvious. The nature of the units themselves is most important, and if Academy builds 20 (or even 15) Archmagi when Dungeon gets 20 Blood Furies, you have to acknowledge that the Archmagi are the more dangerous creatures and hence the killers. You have to factor in growth and cost, though I don't think heroes.

PS: I very much appreciate your post Mytical. It's a refreshing change from arguing with DaemianLucifer.

[Mytical]

The only thing I will add is an observence of mine in a unnamed campain. Now I do not remember exact numbers but I believe it was something like the following. 112 Assassins, 71 Blood Furies, 55 Minatour Gaurds, 46 grim riders, 21 (?) Matriarches, and 6 Shadow Dragons. My enemy did not stand a chance, but I am pointing this out for a reason. I believe they had 3 Fallen Angels, 10 Champions (not sure of name), not sure of how many Zealots, Crossbowmen. I had aura of swiftness, tactics and of course teleport assult (absolute requirements in my personal book). The furies were always the first group to act (in several different tries with restarting the scenario altogether), and they could always reach either the Fallen Angel or Champions. With one attack I could easily take out 0-1 fallen angels or 3-4 champions (depending on damage done, luck, ect possibly more). This without them taking damage at all. Not bad for level 2 creatures. I TA my minos (who was the only creature who could not make it to the other side in one move that I wanted on the other side (left my assassins and matriarchs back to do ranged damage or cast spells in the matriarches case). Now I could have easily cast any of my empowered spells and really done some damage, but I knew I could take this fight with little or no losses. Boy was I wrong. The AI, despite having all those grim raiders, the black dragons, and the minos right at it's door went right after the furies. I lost more then a few (each time I didn't direct damage that is) and then either the guy retreats or I finish him off. Furies can be devestating if left unchecked (especially if backed by grim raiders which allows two unretaled attacks). Because they could reach any unit, and do masive damage made them a higher priority to the AI (true the AI is not the smartest sometimes) then the grim raiders and dragons. So while I don't classify them as killers outside their own tier, I don't consider them finesse either. They are something inbetween and a little more added in.

I think I would classify them as situational Killers. Depending on the situation, the skills, ect.

[DaemianLucifer]

I had to sound arrogant because it was the only way of getting your attention that I am being extremely serious and to show you - in stark terms, because after trying for pages in lesser terms you have not seen anything - just how wrong some of your arguments are. I cannot read your mind and no one can, but I can infer from what you write. The fact that I'm using the word 'fact' allows you to infer that I know the meaning of the word 'fact'. But how do you know I know?

Apparently your definition of the word fact is wrong as well because you are using examples I made up as examples of how I play.Did I ever say I will put my pit lord to the left and succubi to the right?Nope.But I did give you an example of how griffins can be reachable and paladins cant.Again "it can happen" is not the same as "I did it".

As for what might happen, no competent player is going to expose himself like this. It is not something that 'might' happen, it is simply something that will not happen.

Sure like youll never see AI do it.I never said that it will happen against a human.You didnt ask for an example against a human,you asked for any example.

There's a possibility that I might collapse and die before I finish typing this post, but there's no possibility that I will target all my creatures at the Blood Furies without some reward from outside the game (eg. you pay me $100 to sacrifice all my creatures).

Funny thing,because you were willing to do it for free

Great idea. We'll both come up with lists. I'll see what I can refute on yours.

Waste your time then if you want.Ill answer your questions that I missed.

We are all creatures of habit DaemianLucifer. If you never cast Chain Lightning there's a very very good chance you will not cast it if we ever get into a grudge match.

See thats where youre wrong.Example:I never used quick sand in HIV campaigns at all,but then after a few fan made maps I had a fight against nomads(I think it were nomads),and had just low level spells.I tried quicksand and it worked like a charm.And you know what?Now its one of my favourite nature spells.

And what you said - that you will target only the biggest threat on the battlefied - agrees completely with my assessment. Blood Furies are not the biggest threat on the battlefield so I do not target them and so they do not die. Happy with that?

Sure,and who will you target then with your first shoot?Again,taking a fight at about 5th,6th week,when stacks are all about the same power.

Three weeks is hardly what you can call 'all Master Hunters'. You just refuted your own words. It is very statements like this one that force me to call into question all the facts that you claim are facts. See, you once said you could kill 4-6 Paladins with one strike from the Blood Furies as well. I ask you closely, ask you to perform calculations and suddenly that number drops to three. How do you want me - anyone - to believe you?

See you are missing one big,enormous part here:I am using underpowered examples just to show you how powerfull they are.A warlock of sp 10 and no artifacts?In week 5?? Where did you see that?

I know someone has said it before, and I would not mind testing it myself if I knew how to operate the editor (will work it out eventually, just not yet). Again, I'm betting the Warlock has to use Irresistable Magic.

Even so,it still works massivelly.Plus you can protect only one creature,and warlock will probably have sorcery,so...

Don't take my point out of the context. The point is:

Pure damage is nothing. Blood Furies have smaller attack and defense skills than Black Dragons and will have less EHP (effective hit points) and damage.

And I ask you once more. Do you want to make this into a poll to see just how many people are on your side? 40 Blood Furies against 3 Black Dragons - which is more dangerous?

Sure,go ahead,make a poll.Wont change my mind.I was in sucha situation and I used furries 70% of the time,and blackies 30%,so Id always pick furries if the ratio is 13:1.

Let's just say that the 18 Cavaliers were amassed on Week 5, not on Month 6 Week 3 Day 5.

And?What about your "I never mentioned such numbers..."?

Sure you would. But you don't have a choice. The AI will target the Blood Furies, and if you have only these two stacks left you can't go to Lethos and say 'please cast Ice Bolt on the Grim Raider'.

Well I dont know which battle you reffered to,so enlighten me.What armies were there when your single raider survived?

No I will not be using the melee attack, and no, it does not mean the melee unit is the one dealing the damage. If I Gate 1 Familiar beside your Marksmen I have incapacitated them for a round (unless you spare melee units - Squires and Peasants, which you should) to clear them. You can incapacitate units without killing them. In Heroes 4 a Hypnotized unit is essentially incapacitated; in Heroes 5 a unit under Puppet Master is the same.

True,but your example was not against a ranged unit,but against the furries.You cannot block their range by putting a melee unit in front of it.Especially not a small one like cerberi.So how are you going to incapacitate them with just cerberi and not kill them?

Your choice is to hang back then? Alright. After my Gated creatures arrive I advance my three melee offensive units - the Cerberi, Nightmares and Archdevils - forward. They will not move so far as to venture within range of the Hydras, and they will attempt to stay out of Blood Fury / Black Dragon / Grim Raider range as much as possible. Your move.

You wont have the devils,nor the lords,and I wont have the dragons nor the raiders.Like I said,my first move is to destroy your devils and lords by throwing my dragons and raiders at them,supported by furries assassins and matriarchs.And then I go into defensive.Not at the start of the battle.

Incidentally, a battle can be won without Destructive magic. If it couldn't Chaos would be far and away the most powerful race in Heroes 4.

Yup,but we are talking about warlock here.Probably the only race that must take a certain school if it wants to stand a chance.

First you say you are hanging back. Then you say you are taking the initiative. Oh bother. Are you advancing or will you hang back? Please don't say it is Inferno who will have to move first. Inferno Gates with the first move such that the choice lies with Dungeon.

Am I speaking greek here?I said I will advance first,then go defansive.*sigh*

Does it take much skill to note if two creatures are in the same line? Utilizing Mages is a whole lot easier than utilizing Sprites.

You have 13 creatures you have to keep your eye on before you decide where to shoot.More if there are summons/gated units.

I see. Even plain moving over to your opponent's line is 'dancing'. Very well. All creatures are finesse. There are no supporters, no cannon fodder, no killers.

No,moving to your opponent is not dancing.But moving left and right along the opponents front line and moving around its creatures is.

Does it take much skill to see if two creatures are highlighted when you move the cursor from one direction? You do not understand at all. When moving Sprites - as I found from using 10 Sprites against 27 Deep Hydras, a battle you said you was absurdly easy but never rose to the challenge to attempt - you not only have to take care to move them out of the Hydras' range, you must also factor in freak morale bonuses, where the Hydras are likely to move next and whether the Sprites will be able to survive the incoming envelopment. This is true finesse. What is there to Black Dragons?

So you are saying that you arent using the movement shadow?The computer doesnt show you where the hydras will go on its next turn so you have to calculate it?As for blackies,you know that your opponents will move after your attack,so if you want to attack more then one stack after that,you have to plan ahead as well..And morale plays a factor here as well.

Pit Lords are much more endowed at Ranged combat than Hydras with their two spells.

They still act very late because of low initiative,thus they are slow.

First refers to Blood Furies; second refers to Paladins and Master Hunters. Easy.

No,both refer to furries.Dont change your words now.

The real misunderstanding is simple. I was assuming you were fighting an 'opponent with merrit'. Turns out you're up against the AI (your assertion that there is a chance that some of the stacks target Griffins instead of Paladins makes it so - a human player will be unaffected by where the Griffins are so long as the Griffins are within attacking range [vice versa] of all their creatures). If you're only going to duel the AI then there's no point even continuing this.

Oh really,so if a griffin blocks a way to the paladins that wont change the humans actions?Besides,as I remember all the examples you made(battles against lethos and co)were also against AI.

No, but the very fact that I couldn't would make me skeptical enough to require concrete proof. Suppose I tell you I can beat 3 Titans with 20 Plague Zombies. You try it and find it impossible. What will your reaction be?

Id ask you what level hero you used.If it can kill a titan in a single hit,than its easy to do that,isnt it?

I can give you examples of such contentious issues. Bandobras Took once told me that Marksmen lose to Lizard Warriors in a straight fight. I could not believe it - until he showed me the calculations. Then I accepted it as a fact. csarmi once said that it was possible to achieve more than 200 movement in Heroes 4 in a turn. I could not believe it either - until he detailed exactly how he managed. I do not believe you can leave Shadya / Raelag by the Ore Pits and not get hunted. I cannot believe it until you back it up with proof. You have not done so so far. All you've given me are words, and by those same words I tell you I can beat 3 Titans with 20 Plague Zombies - heck, I can beat 30 Titans with 1 Plague Zombie.

Ok,Ill do the same then.I dont believe lethos stayed in town for a full week.All you showed me was words.I need concrete proof.Happy?

Yes, and Black Dragons are finesse, Archangels are finesse, Archdevils are finesse. *Sarcasm*

Nope,angels are more of a support(resurrection)in low numbers,killers in high.But then again,all units are killers in high enough numbers.Devils are just useless in low numbers.

I do not. If you do then you'll have no choice but to classify all level 1s as killers (you have no choice but to use level 1s in the first few days of any map) when some are clearly not so.

Um,why?Why would I classify a peasant as a killer if I compare it with a sprite?

1. You cannot beat Ranged guardians with Blood Furies without losses if you do not have Hydras yet. The post in question is on the 13th page when you said the answer was to get Hydras.

I answered that already.However your post was revolving around the fact that its a big stack of guardians.I can also say that you cannot kill 1000 furries without losses with your 100 blackies.

2. Your original statement on page 15 asserted that if Blood Furies die you need to change your strategies. The same post asserted that the Blood Furies survive better than Paladins because the Paladins stay deep in enemy territory when they strike. I later pointed out that the Blood Furies cannot survive if they are targetted and they survive better simply because they are not targetted. You have not answered this point; you have only sidestepped.

Ok,you are also neglecting the fact that you said that furries die faster then paladins because they are always targeted first by the AI.I always said that the fact that AI targets them first doesnt mean they will always be targeted first.Thanks for proving my point here.

3. Your post on page 15 challenged me to play games against a non-AI Warlock. Then your post on page 16 said that you have not fought an opponent with merit but just the AI. A contradiction I did not bring up.

I fail to see the contradiction.I told you to fight a human warlock just so you may see that its not as week as you said it is,and that furries are much more usefull than you think.That has nothing to do with who I played.

4. Your post on page 16 asserted that Imperial Griffins land in awkward positions after their Battle Dive wherupon they die. I pointed out that it is absurdly stupid to target Imperial Griffins instead of the Paladins that are already in one's face. You have not answered this point; you have changed your stance instead. Strike one for me.

I didnt change my stance.Griffins still can block some of your enemys units from reaching your paladins.Besides,didnt you just say in this post that if griffins are in range it wont matter to a human and he will target them?

5. You again asserted on page 16 that the Blood Furies cannot be targetted because all you had to do was deal with the fast melee and ranged creatures. I challenged that fact and brought up the duel between any race and Dungeon where I wipe out all Blood Furies before they move three times. You have avoided this challenge and then changed your stance again. Strike two for me.

I never changed my stance,I still am still saying that same thing.And as I remember you are chalenging me with an inferno,right?And it was my choice as well.So how did I avoid the chalenge?

6. You argued on page 16 that Expert Logistics allows Shadya and Raelag not to get caught outside the town. I gave you two examples from my own experiences to show that it is not so. You answered by saying that perhaps the AI scripts have been changed. I then challenged you to try the map in v1.4. You have not done so, you have instead continued to theorycraft.

And I wont play a buggy game still.Maybe in the second expansion,who knows.

7. Your post on page 17 argued that Blood Furies fail to be killers only when you have a few of them. I replied that I view 20 Archmagi as much more dangerous creatures than 20 Blood Furies, showing you that it is the trait of the creature that matters most, not their numbers. You have not answered this point.

Oh really?Only traits matter?Ok,how come then 3 blackies are as effective as 40 furries?How come 4 druids overshadow 8 hunters,yet 40 druids are the same as 80 hunters,and 400 druids are weaker then 800 hunters?

8. On page 17 you argued that the Imperial Griffins get targetted instead of the Paladins because the units that attack the Imperial Griffins cannot reach the Paladins. I contested this fact and pointed out that it is entirely possible to place the entire Inferno army around the Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords where the Paladins are likely to be. You have not answered this point and instead changed your stance. Strike three.

Yup,I agreed with you that its possible.Even more,it was I that gave an example of two such layouts,not you.But possible is not the same as "it always is".

9. Your posts on page 17 asserted that Paladins suffer because they will have to take full damage from the Succubi Mistresses. I gave you the tools to counter those defenses. You did not point out any weaknesses with my method or any counter counters.

Ah yes,the one about buffs.Paladins will never be able to reach your succubi if you box them in.You can even do this with making room for them to avoid the dive(leave one empty square cover it with demons and imps next to fiends.As for haste,dont forget that your opponent has dark as one of his primary schools,so mass slow and mass confusion are very likelly to happen.It mostly goes to who will have the (un)luck to go second.

Also,I didnt test this,but do succubi deal more damage to units on the opposite side of the field if the first target is in its range than if it isnt?If so,charging with your paladins can hurt you a lot,but you will have to unless you want the lords to cast a spell.But it depends a lot on the actual army composition,so it will be a narrow one for both.

10. You argued on page 17 that the Blood Furies occupying the Nightmares and Cerberi is a good thing. I pointed out that you would be spending a killer unit (at least to you) to occupy your opponent's finesse units. You have not answered this point other than a weak attempt to classify Nightmares and Cerberi as killers.

And when did I call those units finesse?Besides when did you accept that furries are killers?And I didnt even say cerberi and nightmares are killers either.

Btw,why do you think nightmares are finesse?

11. You mentioned on page 17 how it is possible to meet one Angel on the battlefield. I retorted that this is an impossibility; the side who builds the Altar of Light will certianly hole up in his castle and wait for the start of the next week and his two more Angels before engaging. You have not answered this point.

Ah yes,I knew I wanted to go back to something.I think I even made a blank quote there as well.It depends a lot on the map and its limits.And I did lead a single emerald in a few maps.Very nice for clearing neutrals.One archangel can also be a good addition against neutrals.So what if during such a hunt you get intercepted?

12. You argued on page 17 how Master Hunters should not be considered as killers because at half range they deal just as much damage as Blood Furies. I pointed out that Sylvan is unmatched at Ranged units by all races except possibly Academy and will have to be rushed. This gives the Master Hunters shots at full damage. You have not answered this point for every race except Dungeon, where we continue to debate.

What??I never said that hunters arent killers.I was just countering your argument that furries are finesse while hunters are killers.

Again I dont see why they deal full damage aginst a warlock that can match its ranged power by spellpower.Especially if it can kill a three weeks population with its weak hero and a single low level spell,that stuns.

13. You argued on page 17 how supported and protected are two different things, and that you will protect Paladins but not support them. I gave you a direct quote with you using the word 'supported'. You then left the point ignored.

Since when are we counting luck as a certainty?I said that griffins might land in enemy camp and that it happened often to me.Often,not always.And to me,not to everyone.I even said "Maybe I just was unlucky with that,who knows.",yet you ignored that one completelly.

14. You argued on page 17 ~ 18 that 40 Blood Furies were more dangerous than 3 Black Dragons. I challenged you to put that to open vote. You have not accepted. You have only answered that the Blood Furies deal more damage but you did not factor in attack / defense.

Put a poll,I wont stop you.I never said I dont accept,so dont put words in my mouth.

15. You mentioned on page 18 that Hydras are Supporters. I attacked that point; you ignored it hence.

Excuse me?You argued it by saying hydras are fodder.I thought we agreed to call them slow killers.

[SmokingBarrel]

Ok,Ill do the same then.I dont believe lethos stayed in town for a full week.All you showed me was words.I need concrete proof.Happy?

Ok Lucifer, you know what? I also saw Banedon playing that campaign. At first we defeated the Blood Furies, then attacked the first castle, got it, and then defended it. Whatever happened next I'm not exactly sure, but somehow or the other, we caught the other castle, and then Lethos showed up. So we ran away and went back to the first castle. Lethos jumped back in to the second castle, and then stayed there for a week or so. You can also go ask Vulcanic.

Why not you just patch it to 1.4 and replay the map? It is supposed to be much harder than 1.0.

By the way, there were 90 Blood Furies in a duel we tried, hero attack 6, against Paladins with hero defence 9. The Blood Furies could only kill 1-2. Evidently, 40 Blood Furies cannot kill 3 paladins. According to Banedon, you first said it was 9, exaggerated said it was 6-7, later said it was 3-4 or something like that. I'm afarid 40 Blood Furies won't be able to do much to the Paladins after all. That is all a little bit of nonsense. Unless there is a bit of change in 1.0, which I don't think so.

3 Black Dragons are definitely scarier than 40 Blood Furies. But I won't poll, otherwise you might just think that "ohhhh, Banedon's brother is just helping Banedon".

Banedon says that you keep on changing your words and so on, but he sure took a long time on the post, and he's almost going to collapse out of exhaustion. Just to let you know.

And make the posts shorter please. Thank you.

[winterfate]

Banedon&DL: ...Um...do you two not realize that the only true way to end this once and for all is to have a duel (or a 1vs1 skirmish)?

This is a bit much . (If this keeps going on, I'll have to make the poll myself ...but, what would the voting be about?)

I still say there should be an intermediate category between finesse and killer. IMO, that list would contain:

1. Cerberi
2. Sprites
3. Blood Furies
4. Djinns
5. Spectres (not 100% here, but IMO, their Incorporeal being luck-based and all prevents them from being true killers).

I'll add new creatures if I find them .

[Banedon]

Apparently your definition of the word fact is wrong as well because you are using examples I made up as examples of how I play.Did I ever say I will put my pit lord to the left and succubi to the right?Nope.But I did give you an example of how griffins can be reachable and paladins cant.Again "it can happen" is not the same as "I did it".

Do you have to stoop so low as to argue over individual words? That when one says "I can put Succubi Mistresses and Pit Lords on opposite sides of the battlefield" does not mean that he will (or at least, that there is a very good chance of that happening)? Do you go against common sense, and do you actually want to sound credible?

Sure like youll never see AI do it.I never said that it will happen against a human.You didnt ask for an example against a human,you asked for any example.

It is a fact that the AI is far inferior to Humans. It is also a fact that playing against the AI hardly requires any deep strategy. I could annihilate the AI in Heroes 4 with a single Might Superhero but I can hardly scratch a human player with that same strategy. So what? Does that make the single Superhero strategy powerful in MP?

If you lack even the common sense to see that the very focus of this debate has been and always will be in human vs. human, then I wouldn't be surprised if you posted 'since when did I say this is H5? I meant H3'.

Funny thing,because you were willing to do it for free

I do it to prove that you are wrong, that you, despite your facade, have learned something from this debate. I tell you, the more you irk me the worse the response will be.

See thats where youre wrong.Example:I never used quick sand in HIV campaigns at all,but then after a few fan made maps I had a fight against nomads(I think it were nomads),and had just low level spells.I tried quicksand and it worked like a charm.And you know what?Now its one of my favourite nature spells.

You did it against the AI. You did not do it in a serious match. If it were the finals of a $100,000 tournament and the battle hinged on whether you cast Quicksand, I can give you excellent odds that you would not. If Sir Alex Ferguson wanted to experiment with his lineups, he would not do so in a crucial match against Chelsea.

Sure,and who will you target then with your first shoot?Again,taking a fight at about 5th,6th week,when stacks are all about the same power.

The Shadow Matriaches - at least until you see whether Dungeon is charging or defending. However this is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

See you are missing one big,enormous part here:I am using underpowered examples just to show you how powerfull they are.A warlock of sp 10 and no artifacts?In week 5?? Where did you see that?

Where did you see 3 weeks' worth of Master Hunters in week 5? Or a Sylvan player that does not have Castle to boost the growth? You are exaggerating, and I blew holes in that exaggeration. Don't use exaggerations so freely; it weakens your case. How can anyone expect your words to be credible now?

Even so,it still works massivelly.Plus you can protect only one creature,and warlock will probably have sorcery,so...

The editor refuses to work, so I am unable to test it. And so what if I can only protect one creature? The immunity, if it protects my most important stack, would be totally valuable. However this is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Sure,go ahead,make a poll.Wont change my mind.I was in sucha situation and I used furries 70% of the time,and blackies 30%,so Id always pick furries if the ratio is 13:1.

Given how often you've changed your mind in this topic I will ask you the question first before I create the poll: what question is it that you are asking? Make it as clear as possible, such that if it is misinterpreted you can only blame yourself. I could pose the question as '3 Black Dragons or 40 Blood Furies - which is more dangerous? Which will you target first in a battle?' and after the Black Dragons win you will write 'since when did I say the Blood Furies are targetted first? I meant...' and go on more twistings of words.

And?What about your "I never mentioned such numbers..."?

There're two options I have that I'm pondering over DaemianLucifer. I'd appreciate it if you could help me decide which is more attractive. Should I admit I was wrong, use the 18 Cavaliers and see how you deal with those Cavaliers with 5 weeks' worth of Blood Furies or should I follow your style and maintain I used the word 'Paladins' not Cavaliers? Either would put you in hot soup. Tell me, which is more attractive?

Well I dont know which battle you reffered to,so enlighten me.What armies were there when your single raider survived?

I can't remember and I no longer have the saved game. Bet you cannot give a way to preserve the Blood Furies instead of the Raider however - even with Magical Immunity the Ai has Ranged creatures that will shoot down the Blood Furies. However this is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

True,but your example was not against a ranged unit,but against the furries.You cannot block their range by putting a melee unit in front of it.Especially not a small one like cerberi.So how are you going to incapacitate them with just cerberi and not kill them?

I was just showing you that I can incapacitate units without killing them. I can incapacitate your Blood Furies by binding them with Ancient Treants. If I use Cerberi I will kill them of course. Trade your Blood Furies for my Cerberi (after I Gate, of course)? Interested?

You wont have the devils,nor the lords,and I wont have the dragons nor the raiders.Like I said,my first move is to destroy your devils and lords by throwing my dragons and raiders at them,supported by furries assassins and matriarchs.And then I go into defensive.Not at the start of the battle.

I suddenly wonder why I'm even debating this. So what if I beat you? It would only go to show that I'm a better player than you. Put wimfrits as the Dungeon commander and he might very well beat me. So what? It shows nothing that Blood Furies are finesse. This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Yup,but we are talking about warlock here.Probably the only race that must take a certain school if it wants to stand a chance.

Obviously. That's why I used the word 'incidentally'. This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

So you are saying that you arent using the movement shadow?The computer doesnt show you where the hydras will go on its next turn so you have to calculate it?As for blackies,you know that your opponents will move after your attack,so if you want to attack more then one stack after that,you have to plan ahead as well..And morale plays a factor here as well.

Your post proves that for all your bravado about your computer not being fast enough to do the battle in two hours, you have not even tried the battle. You have to calculate two moves in advance. In one move maybe your Sprites have two squares that they're free to go to. Where will one Hydra stack move? What will the next one do? Will they block each other? After they move, will the Sprites still have a safe square to go to? Therefore which square is superior? How much of that is shown by the computer?

As for Black Dragons, it's a simple matter of seeing if two creatures are highlighted from the square you are attacking from.

They still act very late because of low initiative,thus they are slow.

Assassins are slow. They will also run out of shots. Does that make them melee units? This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

No,both refer to furries.Dont change your words now.

Do you need a lesson in English DaemianLucifer? Look carefully at the quote:

Show me the quote where I said that Blood Furies die quicker than Master Hunters and Paladins against a hero. Can't find it? You bet. I never said anything like that. If anything, they'll die faster because they are dangerous killer units and warrant fast targetting.

The second sentence used the pronoun 'they'. What does 'they' normally refer to? It refers to the subject that is closer to the sentence. What is closer to the sentence? Obviously the subject 'Master Hunters and Paladins'. I have not changed my words at all. Your brain has simply gone short-circuit.

Oh really,so if a griffin blocks a way to the paladins that wont change the humans actions?Besides,as I remember all the examples you made(battles against lethos and co)were also against AI.

The Griffins won't be blocking the way to the Paladins. You yourself gave formations that make it impossible to block the way to the Paladins. Go ahead and contradict yourself. The battles against Lethos and the others were made in The Cultists, a campaign map. This isn't a campaign map.

This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Id ask you what level hero you used.If it can kill a titan in a single hit,than its easy to do that,isnt it?

No normal hero can win a 1-Zombie-against-20-Titans fight if the Titans are split into three stacks. Kill two Titan stacks in a spell and the last one will kill the Zombies. You can't kill all three Titan stacks without killing your own Zombies. This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Ok,Ill do the same then.I dont believe lethos stayed in town for a full week.All you showed me was words.I need concrete proof.Happy?

I asked SmokingBarrel to make the post above; Vulcanic will be doing the same shortly. I have two eyewitnesses. Where are yours? I'd give you the saved game as well but I've deleted them.

Nope,angels are more of a support(resurrection)in low numbers,killers in high.But then again,all units are killers in high enough numbers.Devils are just useless in low numbers.

Your argument is that they are finesse because they have to 'dance'. They must move across the battlefield in order to get to their targets. Hence 100 Archangels are still finesse.

This is out of context and I will not pursue this point; I'll concentrate on whether Blood Furies are killers.

Um,why?Why would I classify a peasant as a killer if I compare it with a sprite?

Because the Peasants will be doing significant amounts of killing until you get enough Marksmen into play. You have to classify them as killers because you have no other units in play. Sprites kill of course. So do every other level 1 unit in the first turn of play. Does that make them all killers?

I answered that already.However your post was revolving around the fact that its a big stack of guardians.I can also say that you cannot kill 1000 furries without losses with your 100 blackies.

It need not be a big stack of guardians. Lots of Marksmen are good enough to kill your Blood Furies. By the time I have 100 Black Dragons I can undoubtedly kill 1000 Blood Furies without losses, by the way.

Ok,you are also neglecting the fact that you said that furries die faster then paladins because they are always targeted first by the AI.I always said that the fact that AI targets them first doesnt mean they will always be targeted first.Thanks for proving my point here.

That is against the AI and not against a human; that does not apply as well in the final battle. Blood Furies die faster / run a greater risk of dying in neutral battles. Agreed?

Your original post on page 15 was directed at the final battle as well, because no sane player will be losing Paladins to neutrals. If the possibility is even there, you were fighting another hero in the final battle.

I fail to see the contradiction.I told you to fight a human warlock just so you may see that its not as week as you said it is,and that furries are much more usefull than you think.That has nothing to do with who I played.

If you are fighting / have only fought the AI you are totally unqualified to make judgments on what humans would do. Just ask JollyJoker. Let him know that you only fight the AI and see what he thinks about your opinions.

I didnt change my stance.Griffins still can block some of your enemys units from reaching your paladins.Besides,didnt you just say in this post that if griffins are in range it wont matter to a human and he will target them?

I answered this above. Griffins cannot block any of your enemy's units if he knows what he is doing. Please do not quote this so as to reduce the length of posts.

I never changed my stance,I still am still saying that same thing.And as I remember you are chalenging me with an inferno,right?And it was my choice as well.So how did I avoid the chalenge?

If you change the battle above and give me the task of killing all your Blood Furies, I'll gladly continue the battle. After the Gating I charge my Cerberi, Nightmares and Archdevils all at the Blood Furies. Succubi Mistresses attack the Blood Furies. Hero casts Teleport on Pit Lords if available and hits the Blood Furies. If not available hero casts Lightning Bolt on Blood Furies, stunning them. Pit Lords toss Meteor Shower. All the Blood Furies die. GG.

And I wont play a buggy game still.Maybe in the second expansion,who knows.

And yet you argue that your heroes stay outside unmolested. That is plain buggy. A human player would note his win objective - kill Shadya or Raelag - and that Shadya is outside the castle. Bye bye Shadya.

Oh really?Only traits matter?Ok,how come then 3 blackies are as effective as 40 furries?How come 4 druids overshadow 8 hunters,yet 40 druids are the same as 80 hunters,and 400 druids are weaker then 800 hunters?

Read the post closely. I said the traits are the more important factor. Numbers matter of course but the traits are more important. In the case of Blood Furies the numbers work against you; Blood Furies have abject growth rates.

Yup,I agreed with you that its possible.Even more,it was I that gave an example of two such layouts,not you.But possible is not the same as "it always is".

You gave me the examples and then said it is possible to block the routes to the Paladins with Imperial Griffins - something not possible unless the Imperial Griffins are directly beside the Paladins, which won't be happening because of Battle Dive.

Ah yes,the one about buffs.Paladins will never be able to reach your succubi if you box them in.You can even do this with making room for them to avoid the dive(leave one empty square cover it with demons and imps next to fiends.As for haste,dont forget that your opponent has dark as one of his primary schools,so mass slow and mass confusion are very likelly to happen.It mostly goes to who will have the (un)luck to go second.

If you box them in, you suffer from the Battle Dive and the Paladins can charge the Pit Lords. Don't tell me one square is enough. What if your opponent Battle Dives the empty square? How will you know what he is doing?

As for Haste, he will be trading his hero's move for your Inquistor's, which is certainly fine.

Also,I didnt test this,but do succubi deal more damage to units on the opposite side of the field if the first target is in its range than if it isnt?If so,charging with your paladins can hurt you a lot,but you will have to unless you want the lords to cast a spell.But it depends a lot on the actual army composition,so it will be a narrow one for both.

No idea. I doubt it though.

And when did I call those units finesse?Besides when did you accept that furries are killers?And I didnt even say cerberi and nightmares are killers either.

Btw,why do you think nightmares are finesse?

Are you telling me Nightmares and Cerberi are killers? I have never accepted that Furies are killers. Only you have. From your point of view - I'm putting myself in your shoes here - you will be using your killer units (Blood Furies) to occupy your opponent's finesse (Cerberi and Nightmares).

Nightmares are finesse because of their high speed. They can be used for multiple strategic purposes, of which blocking Ranged units is the most obvious.

Ah yes,I knew I wanted to go back to something.I think I even made a blank quote there as well.It depends a lot on the map and its limits.And I did lead a single emerald in a few maps.Very nice for clearing neutrals.One archangel can also be a good addition against neutrals.So what if during such a hunt you get intercepted?

1. Against neutrals all units are welcome. So one Archangel is a good addition. Does not change the fact you are saying that you could actually be caught with one Archangel in a battle.
2. What if you get intercepted? Marks you as incompetent then. Good players will note they are approaching enemy territory and back off. Even better players would have sent scouts running ahead and therefore see you before you reach him. You should never have one Archangel in a battle unless you are being seiged.

What??I never said that hunters arent killers.I was just countering your argument that furries are finesse while hunters are killers.

Again I dont see why they deal full damage aginst a warlock that can match its ranged power by spellpower.Especially if it can kill a three weeks population with its weak hero and a single low level spell,that stuns.

You have not countered that Master Hunters are killers. You have again invoked the example of a Warlock. What about the other races? Can the other races not charge Sylvan?

Since when are we counting luck as a certainty?I said that griffins might land in enemy camp and that it happened often to me.Often,not always.And to me,not to everyone.I even said "Maybe I just was unlucky with that,who knows.",yet you ignored that one completelly.

If the Griffins land in the enemy camp you have been lucky. Can't believe you. I ignored it because it is insignificant. Probability says the Griffins will be nearby.

PS: You have once again avoided the point that your Paladins ARE supported.

Excuse me?You argued it by saying hydras are fodder.I thought we agreed to call them slow killers.

You were the one who classified them as supporters. Don't escape the noose. Answer that.