The Dark Misogynist

[Cleanpea]

People are too afraid to get labelled
Edited on Fri, Dec 15 2006, 09:18 by Cleanpea

[jeff]

"People, Fox stopped airing the old Charlie Chan movies in the states because a non-oriental actor plays the role (those movies were made in the 30s and 40s). Stereo-typing must be avoided whenever possible"

That's stupid. Ppl just need to learn not to take them so seriously...

We are not necessarily talking about intelligence, but rather people's emotional responses regardless of how ridiculous they may be.

That's probably overzealous I think.

I agree there were a lot of conditionals in my statement, but this franchise does not need to unnecessarily upset entire groups of the gaming public. It will all probably just blow over with little harm done, at least I hope so

[ThunderTitan]

We are not necessarily talking about intelligence, but rather people's emotional responses regardless of how ridiculous they may be.

Taking something seriously doesn't have to include thought. And just hiding the things we don't like or glossing them over is shit.

[Derek]

The fact is that single player Dark Messiah is filled with monstrous creatures like giant spiders, goblins, trolls, ect rather than humans.

Just because a story is set in another realm, fantasy/sci-fi/etc, does not excuse the writers from making simpleminded comments regarding the actual world. You must understand that just because 'Dune' is set on Arrakis does not mean its points are relegated just to the fictional space that it occupies. Texts, and videogames are such, are not limited in such a fashion as you describe.

The sexual comments come mostly from a succubus for crying out loud (this is one of the 2 females that the articles author decries.) Succubi behave that way in all fantasy settings. That is their nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

SO that leaves one other female to talk about. Is it because that she is eventually rescued by the male heroe that the game is sexist?

Possibly. Is her only role to be rescued? Does she offer anything beyond being a maiden in distress? Your above point alone makes it impossible to tell one way or the other, there are other factors to consider.

If the game's heroe were a female who rescued a male would the game then not be sexist?

It depends on everything within the context of the text. Also, you must not attempt to place the text outside the scope of the era(in this case the present) that birthed it. Females are often just used as sex objects in videogames and that this game does nothing about it reflects on the nature of the writers.

I have not played "Tomb Raider" but I think that the heroe in that game is a female. Why is that game not sexist becuause the heroe is a female rather than a male?

That game is sexist. Tomb Raider was one of the first games(iirc) that used 3D, it is worth noting that the avatar, that now walks in front of the player, is a attractive female. Her only function within the game was to give a sexual rise in the player; there was no other reason. Just because a lead character is female does not mean that it is not sexist.

Or is it only when the heroe of a game or story is male that the game or story is sexist?

See above.

DM single player is a first person shooter type game, not really a role playing game, though you get to chose Sareth's skills. You kill monsters. There is not really any interaction of the heroe with "people."

This is letting teen boys live out their fantasy. Kill monsters, become a superman and get the girl! The actions of the player are not independent of a narrative. In the context of a videogame they go hand in hand.

In the multiplayer game there are other characters to chose from, including a female priestess, which is the most powerful character type in the game and has had to have her power nerfed.

So was the developer discriminating against males when it came up with the overly powerful priestess character class?

Aren't they balancing it right now? So even if the developers were discriminating against males they are now trying to fix that by lowering the power of the only female character class. I hadn't even considered this until you brought it up...it is interesting though.

I can chose to be offended every day by everyone and everything around me if I'm just out to be offended. I wouldn't even have to look hard to do it. Or I can chose to enjoy life. I chose the later.

I'm offended when sloppy writing is defended and sterotypes are advanced in place of actual characters.

[Angelspit]

Bastila Shan (Knights of the Old Republic), Alyx (Half Life 2) and Jade (Beyond Good & Evil) are the proof that someone somewhere is able to design interesting female characters.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

If the game's heroe were a female who rescued a male would the game then not be sexist?

It depends on everything within the context of the text. Also, you must not attempt to place the text outside the scope of the era(in this case the present) that birthed it. Females are often just used as sex objects in videogames and that this game does nothing about it reflects on the nature of the writers.

Females are not just used as sex objects in the game.

According to your own earlier statement you have not played the game. Play the game and then comment on the story.

Furthurmore it is not a video game's story writer's responsibility to do social engineering. They are not trying to change the world with a game, just to give you an interesting diversion and make money.

I have not played "Tomb Raider" but I think that the heroe in that game is a female. Why is that game not sexist becuause the heroe is a female rather than a male?

That game is sexist. Tomb Raider was one of the first games(iirc) that used 3D, it is worth noting that the avatar, that now walks in front of the player, is a attractive female. Her only function within the game was to give a sexual rise in the player; there was no other reason. Just because a lead character is female does not mean that it is not sexist.

I'm offended when sloppy writing is defended and sterotypes are advanced in place of actual characters.

So if the game has a male heroe or if the game has a beautiful female heroe the game is sexist?

Before you become offended by the Dark Messiah story you should first play the game so you know what the story is, don't you think?

GOW

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Bastila Shan (Knights of the Old Republic), Alyx (Half Life 2) and Jade (Beyond Good & Evil) are the proof that someone somewhere is able to design interesting female characters.

There are some interesting female characters in NWN2 also.

GOW

[theLuckyDragon]

The sexual comments come mostly from a succubus for crying out loud (this is one of the 2 females that the articles author decries.) Succubi behave that way in all fantasy settings. That is their nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

All examples in that link have a rebuttal. What would be the rebuttal of this one then?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

The sexual comments come mostly from a succubus for crying out loud (this is one of the 2 females that the articles author decries.) Succubi behave that way in all fantasy settings. That is their nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

All examples in that link have a rebuttal. What would be the rebuttal of this one then?

The rebuttal to that one would be that we are not talking about tradition. We are talking about a fantasy creature, a succubus. Succubus are Succubus. Succubus are not deer, antelope, elephants, apes, snakes, chickens, hell hounds, genies, djiin, rakashas, nightmares, pixies, hogs, werewolves, vampires, orangatangs, snails, penguins, termites, fish, whales, dolphins, mermaids, humans, elves, halflings, trolls, orcs, golems, gremlins, or even Bill Clinton (though their nature is admitedly similar.) Succubus are succubus.

Creatures are not traditions. Creatures are creatures. Creatures are what they are. A succubus is a (fantasy) creature. A succubus is what it is.

Don't be offended at a creature when it is what it is.

A succubus is a temptress. Don't be offended that she is a succubus.

GOW

[Derek]

Assuming one must have experience before opinion, that one must have been to Africa before one might speak about aspects of the country, is not a valid line of reasoning.

Females are not just used as sex objects in the game.

According to your own earlier statement you have not played the game. Play the game and then comment on the story.

Furthurmore it is not a video game's story writer's responsibility to do social engineering. They are not trying to change the world with a game, just to give you an interesting diversion and make money.

A succubus certainly is a sex object, and that you kill others so that you can rescue the female seems like evidence enough to conclude that the other is a sex object as well.

Perhaps it is not the writer's responsiblity to do "social engineering", but are they to be excused when they stygmatize population groups in their quest for an "interesting diversion" and "money"? Are you claiming that enjoyment is a greater than tolerance towards females? I don't want to misrepresent your claim or anything, but that seems to be your point. That a 'story', despite whatever content within it, is about enjoyment and that it does not have any responsibility or goal of doing anything besides that.

So if the game has a male heroe or if the game has a beautiful female heroe the game is sexist?

Before you become offended by the Dark Messiah story you should first play the game so you know what the story is, don't you think?

You're twisting my words.

The function of Lora Croft was only to provide viewing pleasure for the player. That she was only used as such, an object, does imply that the game was sexist. Treating those of another sex as less than those of the other, an object in that case, is sexism.

And it does depend on the context of course about the male protagonist as to whether or not the text is sexist or not. In the case of many games this does seem to be the case, and DM is likely no exception. Perhaps you could claim that the game is fun, but please do not excuse writers for such trash.

[ThunderTitan]

Females are not just used as sex objects in the game.

They cook and clean too?! j/k-ish

They are not trying to change the world with a game, just to give you an interesting diversion and make money.

So why say it's not sexist?! What does that accomplish?

Bastila Shan (Knights of the Old Republic), etc are the proof that someone somewhere is able to design interesting female characters.

You found Bastila interesting?! Personaly both Juhani and Mission impresed me more then her faux-personality wise.

[Meandor]

When female is interesting only because she has big boobs then it is sexism, for example Lara croft, noone gave a f*** about adventures in Tomb Rider, it was all about lara`s boobs and ass.

@DL, yes female models often are muh more detailed, but how do they look like? Yes, like sex objects.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Females are not just used as sex objects in the game.

According to your own earlier statement you have not played the game. Play the game and then comment on the story.

Furthurmore it is not a video game's story writer's responsibility to do social engineering. They are not trying to change the world with a game, just to give you an interesting diversion and make money.

A succubus certainly is a sex object, and that you kill others so that you can rescue the female seems like evidence enough to conclude that the other is a sex object as well.

Perhaps you could claim that the game is fun, but please do not excuse writers for such trash.

No, a succubus is a demonic creature. In the world of Ashan, just as in stories of it in this world, the succubus is a temptress. Having a succubus in the story does not make it sexist.

Tigers have stripes and hunt prey. It is their nature. Succubi tempt prey. It is their nature.

So you are saying that any story where a man rescues a woman is sexist. Is a story where a woman rescues a man sexist? If not, why not?

If a man who works for the fire department rescues a woman from a burning building is he sexist? If a man who is a forest ranger resuces a female hiker who fell down an incline and broke her leg is he sexist?

Gender and sex are a part of life. If a man asks a woman out on a date is he sexist? If a woman asks a man out on a date is she sexist? If a man and woman engage in sexual banter are both the man and woman sexist? Is there anything natural about gender, sex, attraction, and courtship?

Sex is natural. Most of us are here because of it.

You have not even played the game. Your opinion is not based on first hand experience. You do not even know the story. How can you say the story is trash when you have not read it?

GOW

[ThunderTitan]

Gender and sex are a part of life. If a man asks a woman out on a date is he sexist? If a woman asks a man out on a date is she sexist? If a man and woman engage in sexual banter are both the man and woman sexist? Is there anything natural about gender, sex, attraction, and courtship?

No, but if he/she views her/him like a sex object and not another human then yes.

Sex is natural. Most of us are here because of it.

You mean some aren't?! is it coz they're lizardmen from the center of the earth like Bush? They breed asexualy, right?

[CloudRiderX]

For those of you who haven't played DM yet, this idea is absolutely true. Xana and Leanna have no significant purpose in the storyline, and there are countless little things that the developers integrated that aimed the game at guys.



While I appreciate good-looking women in my games as much as the next guy, I do not appreciate the way they were represented in this game. For lack of a better word, Leanna and Xana are just plain corny.



Everything Xana says is a sex-joke, whether implicit or explicit, and her attitude is very shallow; she either hates something or loves it. Leanna is okay to travel around with, but the way she walks is RIDICULOUS. She walks...pretty much like any guy would imagine her walking, but it looks SO stupid when you are running around in the Necromancer Lair, and she's prancing around in that manner.



I would love to see an improvement in this aspect very much.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

For those of you who haven't played DM yet, this idea is absolutely true. Xana and Leanna have no significant purpose in the storyline, and there are countless little things that the developers integrated that aimed the game at guys.



While I appreciate good-looking women in my games as much as the next guy, I do not appreciate the way they were represented in this game. For lack of a better word, Leanna and Xana are just plain corny.



Everything Xana says is a sex-joke, whether implicit or explicit, and her attitude is very shallow; she either hates something or loves it. Leanna is okay to travel around with, but the way she walks is RIDICULOUS. She walks...pretty much like any guy would imagine her walking, but it looks SO stupid when you are running around in the Necromancer Lair, and she's prancing around in that manner.



I would love to see an improvement in this aspect very much.

Yes, it is the female (succubus) that is being sexually aggressive. So she views the male heroe as a sex object. She tries to manipulate him for her own gratification and to gain power in the event that he succeeds in his quest and she tries to steer him in the way she wants him to go.

So I guess it is all us guys who should be complaining because we are being treated as sex objects in the game.

Sex is natural. Most of us are here because of it.

You mean some aren't?! is it coz they're lizardmen from the center of the earth like Bush? They breed asexualy, right?

I wonder about some folks. They seem to be from an alien planet where sex is unheard of.

GOW

[magerette]

I found this game unappealing and therefor did not buy it or play the demo, etc. so I won't comment on DM specifically.



However, I'd just like to state as a female who has played through many other male-oriented games, that I'd rather have a game where women(and men) were portrayed stereoptypically and the gameplay was awesome, than a crappy game that was politically correct.



Most games are made up of well-known stereotypes--and I think it's just as sexist to always be portraying male characters as invincible, brawny meatheads.



Sexism is about degrading and objectifying a human being by gender.



Game characters are not human beings. They are representations and concepts and fantasies...The human being playing the game has the ability to reason, at least theoretically and should be able to see that this is not real life.

[Cleanpea]

I have an example of the difference of playing genders from when I played Jedi academy (the expansion/sequel to Jedi knight two, a starwars-fps):





First I played as a good-looking man, then after, as a good-looking woman. The name for your avatar is the same whether you play male or female, and the cutscenes are the same- the only thing that changes, is your gender.





Before I got used to it, there was a remarkable different feel to playing a woman-it sure did not feel right.



And besides, suddenly it felt like all the other characters behaved and moved as if they were hitting on me.









This example is quite good, because it is a game with totally the same gameplay, and totally the same action, whether you are male or female.







Perhaps girls feel this way when playing as male, I don't know. Anyway, it can be assumed. And wouldn't it be fine for girls to be able to play their own gender, without most of the time being embarrased over ridiculous clothing, and/or behavior?



Don't they deserve it?

[DaemianLucifer]

Assuming one must have experience before opinion, that one must have been to Africa before one might speak about aspects of the country, is not a valid line of reasoning.

Yes it is.And no self respecting scientist talking about any aspect of africa would do so without visiting.

A succubus certainly is a sex object, and that you kill others so that you can rescue the female seems like evidence enough to conclude that the other is a sex object as well.

Perhaps it is not the writer's responsiblity to do "social engineering", but are they to be excused when they stygmatize population groups in their quest for an "interesting diversion" and "money"? Are you claiming that enjoyment is a greater than tolerance towards females? I don't want to misrepresent your claim or anything, but that seems to be your point. That a 'story', despite whatever content within it, is about enjoyment and that it does not have any responsibility or goal of doing anything besides that.

Ok,lets then look at the rights of animals:Spiders are being threated wrongly here.We must change that.No spiders can be killed in such a brutal fashion,and the player should avoid id.Then lets look at pao kai:Those are endagered species,and should not be harmed at all.Lets look at the right of orcs and goblins:The game is so racist and pictures them all as evil,but they are all inteligent and should have equal rights as other races.Whant me to continue?

@DL, yes female models often are muh more detailed, but how do they look like? Yes, like sex objects.

And how do all the man look like?Like buffed up adonisses.Isnt that sexist as well?Aside the fact that they arent detaled as female characters,they are all buffed and toned.

[ThunderTitan]

And how do all the man look like?Like buffed up adonisses.Isnt that sexist as well?

Actualy it is... any game where all members of one of the sexes are portraited in a negative manner is sexist, succubus or no. Might not be intentional, but it doesn't really matter. I don't really care, coz frankly anyone stupid enough to be influenced by something as silly as this one sounds has no bussiness breathing.