The Dark Misogynist

[Angelspit]

<img src="/https://www.celestialheavens.com/images ... irl_sm.jpg" align=right vspace=10 hspace=10>The <a href="/http://www.thegamechair.com/2006/12/05/ ... lay/">Dark Messiah review at The Game Chair</a> is yet another hit to the first-person RPG, giving it a 2 out of 4. The Game Chair usually publishes in dept and multi-parts reviews of game, but in that case they gave up after their initial play. Besides, they called the game misogynistic, and later provided an explanation in the <a href="/http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthre ... ">RPGWatch forum</a>:



<i>"I feel that the distinction here between Dark Messiah and "Misogynist Light" games like God of War or Prey is this. In God of War, female characters are being treated as objects by another character. In Dark Messiah, female characters exist solely for the purpose of sexual innuendo. They have no other life or purpose outside of this. The primary distinction is one of character. In God of War, it's a character treating women badly. In Dark Messiah, it's the author that's mistreating women. I feel like this is a very important distinction. Also, just because lines are crossed all the time in gaming, doesn't mean we should stand for it."</i>



I admit that Leanna and Xana are just embarrassing at times -- anyone who is entertained by their lines should consider getting out of the house more. Yet, I felt that so much more could have been done with the Xana character, instead of merely the evil side of Sareth's conscience. It seems that Arkane and Ubisoft knew the audience of an action-RPG is made of men mostly and took advantage of that.

If you would like to take a look at the original page visit this link:
https://www.celestialheavens.com/1166127590

[HodgePodge]

Another reason for me not to buy DM. In all the previous Might & Magic Games (& Heroes too) women were equal to men, fought along side them, shared their victories & failures.

This is a giant step backwards in the gaming industry. Even with all their technological advances, these people can't seem to understand that more than 50% of the population is female and we don't appreciate all the sexism in games.

[ThunderTitan]

"anyone who is entertained by their lines should consider getting out of the house more."

Really? Coz i find embarrassingly retarded stuff funny. Actualy when i go outside i hear most of it.

[DaemianLucifer]

Another reason for me not to buy DM. In all the previous Might & Magic Games (& Heroes too) women were equal to men, fought along side them, shared their victories & failures.

Sure,biara and isabel were so equal with the rest.

This is a giant step backwards in the gaming industry. Even with all their technological advances, these people can't seem to understand that more than 50% of the population is female and we don't appreciate all the sexism in games.

You complain?What about 3rd person RPGs where if you want to look like something good you have to pick a female model,or youll end up with a blocky body that has no charisma whatsoever?

[Amgor II]

What's up with all this?? I remember when there was no women in games at all, now theres a lot.

[innokenti]

So very right on the woman-treatment front. And the rest of the story.

But I feel an otherwise unfair review seriously exagerrating the minor setbacks etc.

I didn't experience the bugs, so I can't comment on that aspect.I'd hope they can get back to it and play it later on a different machine and with a fresher outlook (possibly ignoring the plot or something).

[jeff]

Well I have not bought DM and do not plan on it. I have hoped that it would be very successful and thereby increasing the possibility of a MMX. If the reviewer is correct in saying women are present only for sexual innuendo, then HodgePodge has it right and most of you have missed the point. In this day and age the only thing worse would be the mistreatment of gays, no offense intended. Sensitivity to the misrepresentation of social groups runs high in the states, even pro athletes get huge fines when guilty of those types of offense. UBI should be appalled that Arkane allowed that to occur and they should seriously reconsider their business relationship. That antiquated view of women has no place. That is not to say women can not be used in that manner, but not solely in that manner. People, Fox stopped airing the old Charlie Chan movies in the states because a non-oriental actor plays the role (those movies were made in the 30s and 40s). Stereo-typing must be avoided whenever possible, and failure to realize that on the part of game manufacturers, in the worse case scenario, can and will threaten the entire franchise. If the magazine feels the game is misogynist, I would not expect them to take another look.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Having played the game and enjoyed it I will say that I do not believe the game is sexist.

The game tells a particular story...the story of a particular man. The man relates to 2 female characters (sort of) and there is some sexual inuendo. Does that make the game sexist?

One of the females is a succubus. Isn't a succubus supposed to be a temptress? The game is not making a statement that women only exist for the pleasure of men and anyone who says that it is is being dishonest.

If the game had been about the story of a particular woman and there was was sexual inuendo between her and the 2 male characters would the author of the article have then called it a sexist game?

GOW

[Derek]

GOW,
Videogames(justifiably) have the stigma of having stories that do not do much to elevate female characters to something more than just a sideshow. Is DM sexist? Possibly, but judging by the apparent fact(I have not played the game) that there are no female characters that are more than just arm candy, and that game seems to play into this stereotype rather than trying something different, I can only assume that either the story is sexist or that the writers were lazy. The later I would think is reasonable enough for even fans to consider.

@innokenti
The story, because it is there, is worthy of discussion. Even games that seem to completly ignore their stories still have the responsibility of not making their stories outrageous in their presentation of groups and ideas without justification or purpose. In the case of DM, as Angelspit pointed out, that purpose would seem to be evident enough. This does not excuse them from doing something offensive though; a story is not to be ignored.

[HodgePodge]

Another reason for me not to buy DM. In all the previous Might & Magic Games (& Heroes too) women were equal to men, fought along side them, shared their victories & failures.

Sure,biara and isabel were so equal with the rest.

Umm, excuse me but I was referring to Might & Magic I - VIII … not anything UbiSoft has published!

This is a giant step backwards in the gaming industry. Even with all their technological advances, these people can't seem to understand that more than 50% of the population is female and we don't appreciate all the sexism in games.

You complain?What about 3rd person RPGs where if you want to look like something good you have to pick a female model,or youll end up with a blocky body that has no charisma whatsoever?

Charisma? Who's talking charisma?? I talking about games using female characters as the butt of moronic, high-school level sexist jokes! In all of the Might & Magic VI - VIII & Heroes I - IV, I was proud to use female characters in my party as a useful part of a team, not just someone who could allow stupid, immature guys to get their rocks off!

Really? Coz i find embarrassingly retarded stuff funny. Actualy when i go outside i hear most of it.

Using embarrassingly retarded comments is a cop-out for game developers & publishers! They can't think up any really humorous or intelligent dialog; so they insert mindless, over-used sound bites … and ignorant people lap it up like a dog laps up vomit!

[Psychobabble]

It seems that Arkane and Ubisoft knew the audience of an action-RPG is made of men mostly and took advantage of that

A constant, and imo valid, refrain in escapist articles is that the gaming industry has got to move past the false stereotype that their audience are a bunch of brainless teenage males who enjoy this kind of stuff. It's a shame that the company which brought us beyond good and evil obviously hasn't learned this lesson...

[arturchix]

Having played the game and enjoyed it I will say that I do not believe the game is sexist.

The game tells a particular story...the story of a particular man. The man relates to 2 female characters (sort of) and there is some sexual inuendo. Does that make the game sexist?

One of the females is a succubus. Isn't a succubus supposed to be a temptress? The game is not making a statement that women only exist for the pleasure of men and anyone who says that it is is being dishonest.

If the game had been about the story of a particular woman and there was was sexual inuendo between her and the 2 male characters would the author of the article have then called it a sexist game?

GOW

Nicely said, I was about to write something similar.

Videogames(justifiably) have the stigma of having stories that do not do much to elevate female characters to something more than just a sideshow. Is DM sexist? Possibly, but judging by the apparent fact(I have not played the game) that there are no female characters that are more than just arm candy, and that game seems to play into this stereotype rather than trying something different, I can only assume that either the story is sexist or that the writers were lazy. The later I would think is reasonable enough for even fans to consider.

Then, please, play the game and evaluate it then. This kinda reminds me of several church cardinals flaming Harry Potter books, that they promote witchcraft, contain heresy etc. And to a question whether they have read any of the books or saw a movie, the answer always is "No! And I don't even intend to". Now really.

Talking about some kind of sexism in DM is just funny - Dark Messiah continues part of the new storyline in Ashan and the main hero happen to be a male, he's to fight against demons and there is no place for females. Maybe Sareth should have been female to please everyone?

In previous heroes games basically the only notable female character was Catherine - are these games sexist?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

GOW,
Videogames(justifiably) have the stigma of having stories that do not do much to elevate female characters to something more than just a sideshow. Is DM sexist? Possibly, but judging by the apparent fact(I have not played the game) that there are no female characters that are more than just arm candy, and that game seems to play into this stereotype rather than trying something different, I can only assume that either the story is sexist or that the writers were lazy. The later I would think is reasonable enough for even fans to consider.

Dark Messiah is really two seperate games. The single player game has a male heroe and follows his story and his choices of good and evil. His name is Sareth and there are no male NPCs that he relates with other than in cutscenes. There is only one female NPC that he relates to other than in cutscenes.

The fact is that single player Dark Messiah is filled with monstrous creatures like giant spiders, goblins, trolls, ect rather than humans.

The sexual comments come mostly from a succubus for crying out loud (this is one of the 2 females that the articles author decries.) Succubi behave that way in all fantasy settings. That is their nature.

SO that leaves one other female to talk about. Is it because that she is eventually rescued by the male heroe that the game is sexist?

If the game's heroe were a female who rescued a male would the game then not be sexist?

I have not played "Tomb Raider" but I think that the heroe in that game is a female. Why is that game not sexist becuause the heroe is a female rather than a male?

Or is it only when the heroe of a game or story is male that the game or story is sexist?

DM single player is a first person shooter type game, not really a role playing game, though you get to chose Sareth's skills. You kill monsters. There is not really any interaction of the heroe with "people."

In the multiplayer game there are other characters to chose from, including a female priestess, which is the most powerful character type in the game and has had to have her power nerfed.

So was the developer discriminating against males when it came up with the overly powerful priestess character class?

I can chose to be offended every day by everyone and everything around me if I'm just out to be offended. I wouldn't even have to look hard to do it. Or I can chose to enjoy life. I chose the later.

GOW

[ThunderTitan]

"People, Fox stopped airing the old Charlie Chan movies in the states because a non-oriental actor plays the role (those movies were made in the 30s and 40s). Stereo-typing must be avoided whenever possible"

That's stupid. Ppl just need to learn not to take them so seriously...

[DaemianLucifer]

Umm, excuse me but I was referring to Might & Magic I - VIII … not anything UbiSoft has published!

Um:

Another reason for me not to buy DM. In all the previous Might & Magic Games (& Heroes too) women were equal to men, fought along side them, shared their victories & failures.

HV came before DM

Charisma? Who's talking charisma?? I talking about games using female characters as the butt of moronic, high-school level sexist jokes! In all of the Might & Magic VI - VIII & Heroes I - IV, I was proud to use female characters in my party as a useful part of a team, not just someone who could allow stupid, immature guys to get their rocks off!

But I am talking charisma.I find it sexist that all the female models get more attention than male models.Why doesnt anyone comment on that?But when a character is a male,or white suddenly youll hear an outburst about sexism and racism.

Dont get me wrong though,I do agree that women should not be treated just as eye candy in games.

Using embarrassingly retarded comments is a cop-out for game developers & publishers! They can't think up any really humorous or intelligent dialog; so they insert mindless, over-used sound bites … and ignorant people lap it up like a dog laps up vomit!

Yup,thats correct.But dont you see you are doing the same thing?Like some posters already said above:Playe the game before you go out calling it sexist and shallow just because one person called it that.

The sexual comments come mostly from a succubus for crying out loud (this is one of the 2 females that the articles author decries.) Succubi behave that way in all fantasy settings. That is their nature.

Not the nature of fall from grace.She was very chaste

[Cleanpea]

We have thousands of games that are similar in many aspects. Most games feature white males, and women on the side line. Some games always try to break this trend, but most games are very safe.







I think the point with calling DM a sexist game has much to it. Because it is all about showing that you care, or showing that it can be made different.

[Da_Vane]

I have to post a comment here...



Succubi have always been temptresses in fantasy because fantasy was originally sexist. The succubi actually comes from christian mythology (catholicism in particular), which was deeply sexist at the time.



Just because "it as always been" does NOT mean it should always be.



Oh, and Fall-From-Grace was a fallen Succubus. Interesting story there, but the storyline is applauded more for deviating from D&D's objective approach to alignment than for anything else.



And, DL - the majority of game artists are male. They lavish tones of time on women models, but to lavish the same amount of time on male models in the same way would probably open them up to claims of being gay.



I remember with amusement when Dragon Magazine had an image of Apollo the Sun God wearing a simple loin cloth on the cover. They got a number of complaints about that from men who felt uncomfortable buying that issue off the shelf because of the artwork, yet felt that there was nothing wrong with artwork involving women with a similar amount of clothing...
Edited on Fri, Dec 15 2006, 07:18 by Da_Vane

[innokenti]

Well I have not bought DM and do not plan on it. I have hoped that it would be very successful and thereby increasing the possibility of a MMX. If the reviewer is correct in saying women are present only for sexual innuendo, then HodgePodge has it right and most of you have missed the point. In this day and age the only thing worse would be the mistreatment of gays, no offense intended. Sensitivity to the misrepresentation of social groups runs high in the states, even pro athletes get huge fines when guilty of those types of offense. UBI should be appalled that Arkane allowed that to occur and they should seriously reconsider their business relationship. That antiquated view of women has no place. That is not to say women can not be used in that manner, but not solely in that manner. People, Fox stopped airing the old Charlie Chan movies in the states because a non-oriental actor plays the role (those movies were made in the 30s and 40s). Stereo-typing must be avoided whenever possible, and failure to realize that on the part of game manufacturers, in the worse case scenario, can and will threaten the entire franchise. If the magazine feels the game is misogynist, I would not expect them to take another look.

That's probably overzealous I think.

To be fair, as others have pointed out one of the women is a succubus. Hell, she isn't even a woman, she's a demon. And the relationship with Leanna has more to it than her looking all pretty and falling in love with him - there is a consistent (even if bland) concern for Sareth from her as a friend.

So it's not THAT bad. It just could have, and probably should have taken a different stand-point.

[Corelanis]

So from now on we shouldnt call our succubi temptresses anymore because its sexist, and they might be offensive? Youre right all things catholic should be denounced as sexist. Never even heard of fall from grace. Game artists shouldnt slack off at work because theyre homophobic. Yes that is very amusing, but not unexpected.

[theLuckyDragon]

but to lavish the same amount of time on male models in the same way would probably open them up to claims of being gay.

I remember with amusement when Dragon Magazine had an image of Apollo the Sun God wearing a simple loin cloth on the cover. They got a number of complaints about that from men who felt uncomfortable buying that issue off the shelf because of the artwork, yet felt that there was nothing wrong with artwork involving women with a similar amount of clothing...

Bah, stupid prejudices...
Bah, stupid people having prejudices...