Lightning bolt vs eldritch arrow

[Jolly Joker]

I knew that someone would come up with that crappy kind of ill-logic.
Buddy, you should just read all the posts just again, and probably yet again and then some more. Maybe that will help. Although I doubt it.

[Elvin]

Quite the defender,don't you think?Why do they even deserve that?I mean sometimes people are unfair to Nival and I understand his frustration but he almost always defends them no matter what.

[Corelanis]

Hey job loyalty is a good thing. Both sides have merrit I am however in favour of seperate spells levels for creatures that way you can balance them with out rendering the hero spell useless. I did here that they wanted modding though I could be wrong the setup the have now supports it to a point. It should have been setup like this noskill, basic, advanced, expert, creature1, creature2 ect. same spell diferent levels.

[DaemianLucifer]

I am against having a separate spell for creatures.There already is too few of logical things that enhance gameplay(no fow,no sim retal,going through walls,etc),and you want even those few removed?

[Jolly Joker]

Quite the defender,don't you think?Why do they even deserve that?I mean sometimes people are unfair to Nival and I understand his frustration but he almost always defends them no matter what.

The point here is simple: I don't defend them, I'm just pretty sick of people who know everything better no matter what.
It's this arrogant kind of know-it-all-better, the same kind of talk you can here in every kind of dive when people talk about - depending on the region - soccer, basketball, football, hockey, wrestling you name it. And EVERY single one would make it so much better than the coach or the players or both.
Now I have no problem with that in general, because it's probably natural.
However, when things that CAN be made one way and another way and a third way and someone comes up and starts talking about how dumb the actual way is YET AGAIN it gets ridiculous.

[nosfe]

separating the spells would be a great decision from a design and moding point of view. You have to realize that for the average user(average as in the user that only plays the game) this would have absolutely no effect at all, he will see the lightning spell in all its glory but underneath the hood it would be another spell that just looks and acts the same as the heroes lightning spell but it is different. Again, this makes it very easy to modify only the creatures spells: if you want the creatures spells to do less/more damage you can easily accomplish that without involving the hero's spell witch didn't have a problem to begin with.
Druid to powerfull? modify *his* spell so that it does less damage and you're done; how it is right now, you have to think about the consequences that modifying a creatures spell does to the hero's spell.
Argue all you want but how it is set up right now is bad from a design point of view

[Sir_Toejam]

I knew that someone would come up with that crappy kind of ill-logic.

you wouldn't even have said that unless you knew it was obvious to begin with, so come off it already.

[Sir_Toejam]

The point here is simple: I don't defend them, I'm just pretty sick of people who know everything better no matter what.

you're both just a contrarian... and a schill?

Ok, just so it's clear...



You really should get that projection of yours under control.

[Elvin]

Well,you have a point.Still some ideas are good and should be spoken,especially when the current sytem has flaws.I'm not talking about this one in particular though I admit that it's kinda funny.

[Alamar]

Quite the defender,don't you think?Why do they even deserve that?I mean sometimes people are unfair to Nival and I understand his frustration but he almost always defends them no matter what.

The point here is simple: I don't defend them, I'm just pretty sick of people who know everything better no matter what.
It's this arrogant kind of know-it-all-better, the same kind of talk you can here in every kind of dive when people talk about - depending on the region - soccer, basketball, football, hockey, wrestling you name it. And EVERY single one would make it so much better than the coach or the players or both.
Now I have no problem with that in general, because it's probably natural.
However, when things that CAN be made one way and another way and a third way and someone comes up and starts talking about how dumb the actual way is YET AGAIN it gets ridiculous.

We never agree but I have to defend JJ's right to his opinion. He can defend whoever he wants.

In addition he is usually civil in his posts and if he wants to get grouchy sometimes I think it's understandable.

I'll go back to disagreeing with post contents later today though

[ThunderTitan]

The point here is simple: I don't defend them, I'm just pretty sick of people who know everything better no matter what.

You know how most roads go both ways...

I don't think that's too impolite because you are setting the tone here.

Yeah, why be the better man...

[Sir_Toejam]

In addition he is usually civil in his posts and if he wants to get grouchy sometimes I think it's understandable.

...but it's just so much fun to pull his chain!

[Alamar]

One of the big issues with Druids is that they use the ACTUAL lightning spell from the game. [duh]

From a game design P.O.V. what would have worked MUCH better is the druids having their OWN special version of lightning bolt ... call it D-Lightning Bolt for example. If this was done you could very easily make tweaks to the D-Lightning Bolt spell without effecting what happens when the player casts their version of Ligthning Bolt.

IMHO the same thing would apply to ANY spells that a spell casting creature has ... this gives you a far better level of control and far better ways to balance creatures WITHOUT that causing problems for player spell casting.

[Yet another dumb decision brought to you by Nival game design]

As for my original statements on game design I am happy to stand by my original statement. Basically not allowing for the spells that creatures cast to be different from what the players can cast is not a sufficiently flexible design / implementation.

Note with my design the spells don't have to be different .... they can be exactly the same. I'm saying that far more flexibility should have been designed in so they COULD be different.

My point is simply, that from a game design pov there should no difference whatsoever between spells (not abilities working like spells like Stor´m Strike), whether they are used by creatures or by the hero.

I understand your sentiments as it does have some logical basis.

The point that I'm trying to make though is that, as far as most modders can tell, the game is not designed in a sufficiently general manner to allow for the spells to be different if the need arises.

In addition a hero is not a creature and you should not necessarily say their spells should be the same. Some argue that spells of creatures are innate, thus why they can't be counterspelled, mana drained by Imps, spell blocked [by hero ability], etc. If the spells are somehow innate there is already plenty of reason to assume that the spells don't have to act the same way in regards to duration, power, damage, etc.

As to "they are the same type of creature" arguement this does not have to mean they are treated the same. An elven hero is generally an elf. A druid is generally an elf. This is correct. However in many fantasy worlds a druids lightning attack may be "Call Lightning" with one set of effects. A heroes / wizard's lightning attack may be "Lightning Bolt" with a totally different set of metrics. This among other things shows that there are just as many [more?] reasons to assume that spells should be different than the same.

Finally, from a game play standpoint, there are plenty of reasons why FORCING the spells to act the same has bad consequences. For example having a Druid, Mage's, etc. damage output be 500% of their standard damage for the first 3 rounds then dropping to normal is probably not good for gameplay, balance, etc. as has been pointed out many times.

The system is flexible enough and I have no problem to fit into it anything you want from it.
<edit>
I'm pretty sure you can redo things within the current system to fit all purposes.

Actually you can't without redesigning / implementing how things work. [Which is my entire point] With creature spells you can only choose from the same 4 levels that a hero has available. If you consider the heroes spells to be perfect but you need a 5th or 6th variation from casting creatures then you are simply out of luck -- either you make heroes spells imperfect or settle for an imperfect choice of creature spells.

For example if the 4 levels of Wasp Swarm are perfect in terms of using it with a hero but Pixie's need a 5th level [say 0 damage but 22.5% init reduction] then you can't do it without overhauling the current system. [Maybe for 0 damage they really conjure a "Butterfly Swarm" instead of Wasp Swarm ]

[Jolly Joker]

Alamar, I see your point, that's not the problem.
However, with that point you can make one for making ALL game aspects much more different - skills and abilities for example. Currently they work the same for alle hero types, but certainly that's not a must. Leadership for Necromancers doesn't work at all which alone would be reason enough to allow different fuctions for skills depending on hero type.
Abilities are the same. Artifacts as well. Even spells could work differently for different hero types.
There has been lines drawn and they work for spells - much better than for skills and abilities it would seem, considering that there still is a no effect skill for Necro.

[ThunderTitan]

Alamar, I see your point, that's not the problem.
However, with that point you can make one for making ALL game aspects much more different - skills and abilities for example.

That would actualy be nice... if they could get it right.

[DaemianLucifer]

Meaning it would be nice if some of the skills/spells/artifacts differed for some races,and not all for all,which would turn it into a boring jumble.

[Alamar]

Alamar, I see your point, that's not the problem.
However, with that point you can make one for making ALL game aspects much more different - skills and abilities for example. Currently they work the same for alle hero types, but certainly that's not a must. Leadership for Necromancers doesn't work at all which alone would be reason enough to allow different fuctions for skills depending on hero type.
Abilities are the same. Artifacts as well. Even spells could work differently for different hero types.
There has been lines drawn and they work for spells - much better than for skills and abilities it would seem, considering that there still is a no effect skill for Necro.

I agree.

If it matters I have suggested that Leadership [and other skills/perks/etc.] work differently for different heroes. That would also be a nice addition so I can't argue with your point of saying that "If you do it for spells why not do it for other things".

A generalized design that would allow for that would have been a great addition.

We can always hope for H6

[Jolly Joker]

Since everyone seems to think I'm defending Nival no matter what, here are MY points that I have lots of trouble to accept the way they are now (apart from bigger issues like Training and Necromancy which I already know will see a change).
1) Leadership skill for Necro; I think that giving the opposition a minus in morale would be too strong. My suggestion would be something like: Basic Leadership: +1 Init for Zombies, Ghosts and Vampires; Advanced: +1 Init for Skeletons and Liches; plus one Speed for Zombies; Expert: +1 Init for Wraiths and Dragons, plus one speed for Ghosts and Vampires. Something like that. It would be the logical thing to do for something like Leadership. It could give any other bonus as well. Important is, it SHOULD GIVE a bonus, no matter how small.
2) Enlightenment is not only working in a silly way, arithmetically (if it was a percentage skill, giving something for each 4,3,2 levels would be like 15%, 20%, 30% which is not good), it's too good as well, especially when compared with some of the abilities, so I would suggest something like one additional skill point every 7,5 (4),3 levels while Arcane Exaltation and Wizard's Rewarf should give THREE points instead of two.
3) There is a way missing to sell artifacts. This could be a map object, it could be a function of the market place and lastly artifacts might be sold in the Inferno's and Dungeon's special dwellings for experience/growth boosts.
4) Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld. I've already sommented on that, but imo you can't have a game feature, where you struggle to produce the rare beast of a Dark Knight - only to get a level 5 spell that will first and foremost hurt your own troops. THAT is what I would call a design flaw (and it's not the only one with those two spells).
5) I would like to see "backward ability additions". With the addons we see new abilities and I would not only like to see the expansion races have old abilities, I would also like the old races getting some of the new ones (where applicable).

[Jolly Joker]

What's the matter? Everyone speechless?

[Mytical]

No, believe it or not some of us actually remember that you have stated you had some problems with somethings . You know me, I usually (attempt) to make a point and then leave the subject be. No sense beating a dead horse and all that. Now I guess the correct term is not 'bothered' by it, but there are other changes I personally would like to see. While everything is ok, I just have a problem settling for ok. Like the spell system. It is ok, but there could be new spells, spells specifically for certain creatures, and in some cases spells that pack a little more umph (hard to get, quest driven, or something similar) then what we have now. Ok is average, decent, and boring. So the current difficulty system is ok..but it could be better.

like adding a couple difficulties between hard and heroic (somebody else suggested this, will give them credit when they ok it lol). Where Heroic means that the AI has a bunch more funds/resources but no 'cheats' (at least 4 or 5 to one on funds/resources). That way you can more customize your challenge. Or even better yet, just one more Difficulty level (this is my idea thanks to their idea). A customized difficulty level.

Where you can set starting funds, how developed the AI town (or towns) start out at, how agressive the AI is, how strategic it is, ect. Now that would be impressive.