Unfair Spell

[ecsunotos]

I've just notice that raise dead ( lvl 3 summon magic ) is not a fair spell compared to resurrection ( lvl 5 light magic ). Raise dead will "resurrect" undead not only in the battle but the hero can bring the "resurrected" undead after the battle. But, this spell just raise the dead living unit only in combat the heroe can't bring them after the combat! If the hero want to bring the dead living unit after the battle, he/she should use the ressurection spell which is level 5!
This is unbalance, what do you think ?

[DaemianLucifer]

No,not really,because raise dead raises your undead units permanently.And are you using a mod?Since I think RD is a level 2 spell.Also,it has been nerfed in 1.3 because it was too powerfull.

[Caradoc]

And remember that Raise Dead only keeps the undead that were killed. Having already been raised, it makes sense that it would take less to reanimate them.

[ecsunotos]

Yes, but remember that raise dead is level 2/3 spell with low cost of manna. Compared to resurrection wich is level 5. I’ve experienced fight against necropolis army with equal strength to mine, they didn’t have level 7 creature and I’ve got 4 angle. Their hero has knowledge 6 w/ high spell power. Still I can’t win the battle, thanks to the raise dead spell. Their hero cast spell many many times to reanimate their fallen undead. At the end of the battle, I loss with a great number of losses, but their army still remain strong enough. Again, thanks to the raise dead spell.
How about that ?

[DaemianLucifer]

Like I said it has been nerfed in 1.3 just because of that.Though if it works better,I dont know.

[winterfate]

Well, I personally don't play Necro so much in HV (more of a Sylvan guy myself , but IMO that nerf was kind of harsh. Granted, I understand why they did it (precisely because players were spamming it), but the penalty could've been 10% instead of 20%.

There is, however, a nasty exploit with that (well two actually):

1. Each time you raise Vampires/Vampire Lords, they will be better able to drain their losses back (this exploit works on the fact that you will always drain 50% of dealt damage, so the less HP they have the more Vamps they drain back).

2. Your First Aid Tent (if it can revive) will be more effective for a similar reason.

So, is Raise Dead unfair? Somewhat, but playing as a necro 1.3 (don't know if this was fixed in 1.4/2.0) stinks because of the excessive building costs and the fact some of the creatures CANNOT compete with similar tier units of other races (*coughBone Dragons*cough).

[Elvin]

It works both ways but then vamps would die easier.High health for me,thank you very much!
Bone dragons?Compete? Most people I know don't bother to build their dwelling.Not really good neither affordable.As for the upgrade...Only good thing is the horde dwelling but it's expensive as well.

[winterfate]

Elvin:

You're completely right . Raise dead can work both ways. As for the bone dragons I did the math the other day and in a maxed out Necro town you can get 3 spectral dragons and 4 wraiths. Guess what? The 4 wraiths do more damage (then again the dragons have that cool cursing attack, but that's relative; won't do you much good against angels for example). The wights (if maybe not the wraiths) are easier to get than the bone dragons too.

P.S: By damage, I mean pure damage, as in the range the creature can do, unmodified (don't know who would do more WITH attack and defense factored in).

Sorry for going off-topic (somewhat).

[Elvin]

OMG you go offtopic in the Round Table?Nobody has ever done that before.

[Mirez]

no it's not underpowered
ressurection and raise dead both do the same exept with ressurection you get to keep you creatures and not with raise dead unless your necro

it's crystal clear that ressurection is better and because of that it's a level 5 spell

[The Mad Dragon]

And it doesn't have a restriction on it that Raise Dead has.

[PhoenixReborn]

no it's not underpowered
ressurection and raise dead both do the same exept with ressurection you get to keep you creatures and not with raise dead unless your necro

it's crystal clear that ressurection is better and because of that it's a level 5 spell

It isn't crystal clear.

1. Ressurection also gives a pecentage off to health every time it's used (even though it's supposedly the most powerful level 5 light magic spell).

2. Every Necro hero starts with raise dead. You might not get ressurection in the guild.

3. By the time I get ressurection I usually have other things I want to cast instead while raise dead is great in the early game even if it isn't so great in the end.

[Mirez]

those percentages are only to stop heroes with a lotta knowledge to spam ressurection/raise dead
and still ressurection is better so It should be level 5 and raise dead 3
don't quite C the problem here

[Sir_Toejam]

another difference between resurrection and raise dead is that ressurected stacks count towards your victory in the battle, while raised stacks don't (assuming you're not talking necros).

IOW, you might have 5 stacks of raised critters and 1 stack with some "not raised" left in it towards the end of a battle. If you lose that 1 stack that hasn't been raised, it doesn't matter if you have the other 5 raised stacks, you still lose the battle.

if those stacks were res'd instead, you're still in the battle.

[Amis]

another difference between resurrection and raise dead is that ressurected stacks count towards your victory in the battle, while raised stacks don't (assuming you're not talking necros).

IOW, you might have 5 stacks of raised critters and 1 stack with some "not raised" left in it towards the end of a battle. If you lose that 1 stack that hasn't been raised, it doesn't matter if you have the other 5 raised stacks, you still lose the battle.

if those stacks were res'd instead, you're still in the battle.

I don't think so. I had battle with academy army only, and I used raise dead on gremlins and my dead mages, all the other stacks were dead. The battle ended for my victory, but I had no armies left . So I had no "living" stacks left at the end of combat

[Sir_Toejam]

they have to be completely raised, not just partially.

and yes, I'm absolutely sure about the end result if all your stacks are completely raised, having experienced both the AI losing to me, and myself losing to the AI and human players with raised only stacks.

[Amis]

they have to be completely raised, not just partially.

and yes, I'm absolutely sure about the end result if all your stacks are completely raised, having experienced both the AI losing to me, and myself losing to the AI and human players with raised only stacks.

OK, maybe it is so. But it's strange, since in both situations you have only reanimated units left.

[Sir_Toejam]

not sure what you mean by "both situations".

[Amis]

not sure what you mean by "both situations".

Another situation is: I have a stack with, let's say, 50 gremilims left and resurrect (with raise dead) to 100 gremlins. I'm not sure which ones, "originals" or raised, will die first, but due to result of the battle (I have no creatures left) I think that originals will. And when I lost 70 gremlins, I have lost all my originals, and thus have only raised greatures left.

And another: you have stack of reanimated and stack of non-reanimated.

[Sir_Toejam]

not sure what you mean by "both situations".

Another situation is: I have a stack with, let's say, 50 gremilims left and resurrect (with raise dead) to 100 gremlins. I'm not sure which ones, "originals" or raised, will die first, but due to result of the battle (I have no creatures left) I think that originals will. And when I lost 70 gremlins, I have lost all my originals, and thus have only raised greatures left.

I share your confusion. the only way to tell for sure is if you raised a stack that was obviously wiped entirely out.

other than that, I haven't a clue as to how the AI figures out a whether astack that has been partially raised over and over has any actual remaining units left when the battle is over.

maybe it's just a simple : "calculate the total amount of damage to the stack over all turns at EOB, and if it was more than enough to wipe out the original stack, then delete the stack"

I'm sure somebody around here has a better idea on the calculations the AI uses in this.

my only point is that, at EOB, if you only have totally raised stacks left, it means you have essentially "null" stacks, and that hero disappears after the battle (so yeah, you can "win" the battle, but you still lose your hero).