Holy crap-You MUST see this! (academy strat)

[Banedon]

Lots to say...

First things first: Hearty congratulations to everyone for making this topic much less hostile and actually exchanging true ideas. The following should make the Round Table proud (all taken from the bbs forum):

1. We now have a topic there specifically dedicated to us! Well, though only a few of us can read it, but it means a lot I'll translate:

Welcome foreign friends! If we we have the time and opportunity to play a game with (our) foreign friends, we will definitely prioritize gamesmanship and friendship. No matter what happens - win, lose, Academy getting lucky, at least the MMR strategy is at least a new discovery, and it should at least be acknowledged, because Academy simply cannot defeat Necropolis and Haven with just military might. I feel everyone might try this strategy, testing it, perhaps improving it. Finally, knowing that at a foreign website everyone is peaceful and happy (yeah, I know, bad translation ) I'm very happy, and I hope this forum can network more with players from other countries. And I hope other Chinese forums can join in

And here's another post which would certainly strike a chord with most of us:

The only regret now is starting the original thread at Heroes Community, actually The Heroes Round Table is a very fine place.

It's unfortunate that most of us cannot understand Mandarin Chinese, but I bet we all appreciate the gesture. Thanks, it brought many a smile to my face on a day when I dramatically failed my exam It's sad though that I'm unlikely to visit the forum too often. I read Chinese slowly and I also type Chinese slowly (English typing speed ~ 120 words per minute; Chinese...). But I can translate, and I will.

2. Three of us - me, JollyJoker, zuffaro - were specifically mentioned there, with the accompanying ideas. I particularly like one of the sentences added to my idea: "forgive him for not having much experience with Heroes 5, but it is possible that Academy receives no Dark Magic spells". :DI don't know what I'm laughing at, but it sure is completely accurate.

With some luck, the MMR strategy might still be counterable. If we contribute to it, we will have written a piece of Heroes 5 history.

*********

Yes,but as far as I understand this is fighting multiple opponents.You cannot specilize in routing out just one of them.

It's a 1v1, so before the counter is born, the counter-counter is already ready

This post has mostly nothing to do with the MMR strategy and an explicit counter, but since the above quote on me is so utterly true, I can't see myself doing anything other than perhaps offering more ideas within the battle itself. I'll have to rush through the campaign quickly Congrats to everyone, and happy discussing!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Well I am missing something hehe. I played with the sorcery specialist, got mark of the wizard first thing (because only attack, advance artificer, mark and consume artifact was offered). Maybe it was because I was playing HoF version but my poor little mage was getting hammered by bears . And this was on hard (not heroic). Was running out of mana to keep my frail critters alive . Oh and Havez could not go the route you suggested do to War Machines. May have to forgo a spell school (any suggestions) if I want to play him. I split my gremlins (to help cut down on casualties). I could take most stacks (even marksmen) relitively easy, but bears/plague zombies tore me up. Didn't even want to attempt the horde of crossbow men... mark of wizard is a must (as soon as humanly possible) to have a chance. .

I just got done with Mystic Vale on heroic in a single player game. I chose to capture the town rather than conquer all oponents. My heroe finished at level 20.

I made one mini-artifact for my titans (5 at end of game.) The colosus dwelling was built at the end of week 3, skiping mage, rakasha, and genie dwelling. I did not have enough resources to build more mini-artifacts.

Perhaps if I had skiped the other dwellings that I built later I would have been able to build more artifacts (I never used the rakasha) but taking the town would have come a little later without the mages (did not upgrade them) and djiin (cannon fodder to spare my other troops.)

There was never enough money to buy artifacts from the artifact merchant.

I had some pretty early battles with the computer (blue and green) who had overwhelming forces but I won with heavy loses (mainly my master gremlins.) They were dwarf/sylvan.

Some of the mine guardians were tough to take until I got my level 4 guild. Summon elementals helped me with the toughest. I did not get phantom forces (I got earthquake:( )but did get fire trap, which was my main early spell, and summon phoenix. Ice bolt, fireball, and chain lighting were my destructive spells. I also got Puppet Master.

I used Jhora. She had to take artificer to expert before working on her other skills to avoid unwanted skills and then developed summoning, sorcery, destructive, and dark.

Your first two creature dwellings should be master gremlins and then steel golems. Put the golems one square above the gremlins and one over so the bears can't get to your gremlins. When the battle winds down repair the golems.

Use the same method to combat other large creatures like unicorns.

Third dwelling will be gargoyles.

My fourth was the cololsium then mages, genies and rakasha.

Use the well above your town (in Mystic Vale) to replenish your mana.

GOW

[DaemianLucifer]

Summon elementals helped me with the toughest.

Still thinking that its been nerfed to uselessness?

So,as an academy fre...I mean expert,do you think this one can be pulled of in other maps?

[Elvin]

Good to see we can get along.For now The round table is always in need of people that can engage in an interesting conversation,argue and still enjoy it.Looking forward to more stimulating topics!(Although I wasn't really a part of it-a few hours away I just found 6 more pages,damn!)

[Jolly Joker]

That sounds like a well played map, GOW!
Umm, the Seven Seas Map looks like an interesting test object, btw.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Summon elementals helped me with the toughest.

Still thinking that its been nerfed to uselessness?

So,as an academy fre...I mean expert,do you think this one can be pulled of in other maps?

Summon Elementals is not as useful as it could/should be for a level 4 spell. I would like to be either be able to summon my elemental whereever I want it (within say the 3 tiles tactics area from my back row) or to be able to select the type since it is no longer stackable. I don't think either would be at all imbalancing.

Since I was always in the grasslands I always either got air elemental or earth elemental. The air elemental was much more useful because it acts more quickly. It drew a lot of attacks from the AI, saving my real troops.

The earth elemental was not as useful as it has such poor initiative and so gets in few attacks. Now if I could summon it wherever I wanted (within the above limitations) I could use it easier as a meat shield, which is what it really is.

As I see it in order to pull off this strategy in heroic you need:

1) A map with a decent amount of resources.
Version 1.3 and higher helped a bit since it reduced mage guild cost but still you need a fair amount of resources (including lots of ore) that can be hard to come by on heroic.

2) Some way to replenish your mana early. Ie a nearby well/eldrich spring to act as a second mana restoration point so you don't have to run back to your castle so much.

I did not chose intelligence, but getting it early on when there is no easy mana recharge place would be most helpful. Of course there are other abilities that can help too but remember that each one puts off developing your expertise in a magic school.

You can also chose to start with a random artifact and hopefully get the necromancers skull.

3) Not to be too unlucky in your spells. I do not like Arcane Armor and cry when it is my highest level summoning spell. Althogh since you will eventually have 3 expert schools you should be able to manage. Although early on a poor spell selection (like the earthquake spell I got for my level 3 spell when all I had was summoning magic) can be disappointing.

You could chose magic insight to help with this, but it is only a temporary problem so I don't think you should chose magic insight when you will eventually have 3 schools unless you are really hurting.

I think the best magic schools to chose are summoning, destruction, and dark with this strategy. For much of the game you are likely to use only gremlins, golems, and gargoyles so light is really a waste here.

GOW

[PhoenixReborn]

Well I've got to say I'm pretty mad.

No one said anything about conditions like

The final battle must be in week 5.

or

Pre-determined heroes.

or

The battle can't take place in a castle.

If you had made this clear from the beginning on AOH maybe people wouldn't have been arguing so hotly.

It also means that valid strategies in a real contest are not valid in your competition like sitting in a castle which has turrets.

So tell us exactly what rules you are playing by and then I can correctly interpret whether you have a good stategy or not.

[86wyp]

Well I've got to say I'm pretty mad.

No one said anything about conditions like

The final battle must be in week 5.

or

Pre-determined heroes.

or

The battle can't take place in a castle.

If you had made this clear from the beginning on AOH maybe people wouldn't have been arguing so hotly.

It also means that valid strategies in a real contest are not valid in your competition like sitting in a castle which has turrets.

So tell us exactly what rules you are playing by and then I can correctly interpret whether you have a good stategy or not.

Forgive me all right? I should have announced it but I didn't. It was my fault. I was just thinking that this strat can be used on any map, even in a resource lacked map. Once on a test an Academy player beat fortress very easily on the map trofile-- a map that you can't even find ore. And it's hard to find any map that is impossible for a player to reach the enemy's town in 5 weeks

About the debate on Aoh, the result was not our fault. You can go read that post again and see how it happened. Anyway I don't think we need to discuss that any more on this forum, just let it go.

All the heroes we chose are powerful, it make no sense to choose a trash hero ,and all factions has more than one hero, so it doesn't matte much.

You actually can sit in a castle and defend yourself even if that means you will never win in 35 days,you can still get a even if you defend the castle successfully. Some of the players tried that before but they all lost.
Besides I think in a map like mystic vale you really don't have many choices yourself, cause anyone can rush you at any time. Like I have once tested deleb, she can reach another town with powerful army in 5 days on mystic vale an in 7 days on last hope. Seldom creatures, even arch mages and creatures more powerful can block her in the first week.

We randomly choose if using hard or heroic level, as well as the starting points. For more information you can check zuraffo's post, or you can also ask raistlinz or me.

[Elvin]

I gave it a try at the map two coast(ver 1.1) and here are my impressions:
Building up to golems it's pretty easy to get capitol and mage guild 4 asap.Even though I got just wasp swarm/lightning bolt/confusion/phantom forces/s.elementals/arcane armour(chain lightning,circle of winter,curse of netherworld,decay with library) it felt like a cakewalk.I got no power boosting arties but those that boost by 50% ice and lightning.
My Jhora at the end(sometime after week 6-I took my time ) was lvl 18 with 4/5/17/13 which wasn't good for mini arties as well with expert destructive,summoning,sorcery,enlightenment.The only problem was that I was unable to build castle after I built colossi in week 3 as I had a shortage of ore.Unless you get another ore mine you just can't and I got some free ore mind you.Also at that time my gold reserves were a bit thin and I barely bought all army having flagged a gold mine 3 days before the end of the week.At week 4 I got mages and library.Never built genies or rakshasas and never actually needed them.

Of course that was against the AI but Jhora became quite a spellcaster and was able to creep continuously for fast lvling taking down most neutrals from the beginning.As lots of master genies in week 2.
I admit it was impressive but the map does have some resources here and there.I need to check it a little more to judge it fairly.

[Alamar]

Does this strategy also appear to be effective in V1.4?

I recall trying to do something similar but this was well before the mage guild cost changes so maybe it's something to try again. I don't see how you can be competitive with it [on the poor resource, heroic difficulty] on the settings & maps I usually play with but it's certainly worth a shot instead of just saying "it won't work".

[asandir]

well this has progressed since I went to sleep .... good to see a few trying it as well.

So it has merit, I think we can agree on that.

I think the difficulty people have with the strategy is that is seems to be put forward as a be-all and end-all "Academy is the bestest eva!" thing .... this of course gets people going .... and unfortunately the "proof" shown at this point has been against sub-optimal (I want to say sub-par even) opposition, the dungeon player was apparently not flash, and the necro was missing some needed stuff! If it works against the AI, cool, but test it against a decent MP opponent (on a map that you don't know like the back of your hand) and see what happens .... without the rules too, cause we play for keeps usually, if it works, excellent, if it is just a good strategy, well that is fine too, but if it doesn't .... then keep working on it ....

[raistlinz]

I gave it a try at the map two coast(ver 1.1) and here are my impressions:
Building up to golems it's pretty easy to get capitol and mage guild 4 asap.Even though I got just wasp swarm/lightning bolt/confusion/phantom forces/s.elementals/arcane armour(chain lightning,circle of winter,curse of netherworld,decay with library) it felt like a cakewalk.I got no power boosting arties but those that boost by 50% ice and lightning.
My Jhora at the end(sometime after week 6-I took my time ) was lvl 18 with 4/5/17/13 which wasn't good for mini arties as well with expert destructive,summoning,sorcery,enlightenment.The only problem was that I was unable to build castle after I built colossi in week 3 as I had a shortage of ore.Unless you get another ore mine you just can't and I got some free ore mind you.Also at that time my gold reserves were a bit thin and I barely bought all army having flagged a gold mine 3 days before the end of the week.At week 4 I got mages and library.Never built genies or rakshasas and never actually needed them.

Of course that was against the AI but Jhora became quite a spellcaster and was able to creep continuously for fast lvling taking down most neutrals from the beginning.As lots of master genies in week 2.
I admit it was impressive but the map does have some resources here and there.I need to check it a little more to judge it fairly.

Glad you've try!

Just 1 tip: your developing is ok, your magic is great(motw+wasp swarm is perfect way to clean the map). But the built colossi part in week 3 is not a wise choice. I said the building order is just a referrence, it should be changed base on the condition, I think you should build castle before the colossi, I believe more Master Gremlins& Obsidian Gargoyle would help you more than 1/2 Colossus.

[86wyp]

Well, plz go to the new post by raistlinz to check our new test by that Jhora player.

[raistlinz]

Well you are busy testing this strategy, our players are testing too. I remember someone on this forum mentioned No Man's Land? OK here is a new test done by that Jhora player. And he also wrote his comment about that test for you Below are his comment and screenshots.

orz…I've posted it just few minutes in a new forum.

[Mytical]

Ok, I have tested this about 12 times so far (on heroic) and to be honest I am either the worst most unlucky player ever, or I am missing something. At the end of day 1 I am about 4th level (which I admit is not bad). I go from the castle to left circling arround the castle, capturing everything I can, and building as suggested. Though I did find that for the most part the resources were just enough to go forward. I even purchase a 2nd hero and give all their troops to my starting person but 1 creature. They become my shuttle service (for new troops). Day 2 is a bit rougher, low mana and my troops took a pounding from 3 stacks of marksmen. But I manage to take the entire left side and make it to the well. And that is where I pretty much should have stopped for the rest of the week. The right side is crazy. 6 times and at least 1 key area (like the gem mine) is always guarded by Master Hunters, or Elder Druids, or even some heavy upgraded meatshield. Either way, with the losses I've suffered (all 12 times) it is impossible to get at least one of these key dwellings. Even MoTW doesn't help. Can't rush them if they are ranged or casters (way too slow units and by the time you reach them your main group of gremlins are about slaughtered). Can't sit them in the corner (lightning will target your gremlins or even worse if upgraded stone spikes). If you take time to MoTW then that is another attack they get. Sure I can take out a stack of ranged or casters every time I cast, but there are typically 3 stacks. Goodbye gremlins (they don't target the single unit gremlins at all). If they are walkers it takes 2 or 3 casts even with MoTW to take one stack down, and that does not help your units much. Usually 3 stacks (again) and sure you get a couple of casts before they reach you, and your single units can tie them up for 1 or 2 rounds, but if even one stack reaches your gremlins you are pretty much done for the week. So at best by day 3 you are sitting doing nothing, but you have some serious levels. I've tried Havez, Nur, and Jhora four times each. Same basic problem. Even with hiring all the gremlins I can, having a second heroes army, and going the side that has the exp boost and mana well close if I fight ranged, heavy walkers, or casters they decimate me. If I don't I can't claim any of the dwellings.

My skills were fine. MoTW 1st day and had expert sorcery and usually an advanced magic skill by end of first day. I took light, Summons, Destruction, and had advanced summons most of the time (the others seem to not be offered as much for some reason). The time I did the best however I had Advanced destruction, master of storms, and lightning bolt. All in all I am either missing something, or this strategy works only if you don't get the mines the first week. Steel golems, Plague Zombies, and Elder Druids just have to be avoided period, until you have some serious level/magic (and preferably mages). Of course this is just 12 tries, maybe in 12 more things will be different.

[asandir]

good work there Myst .... wonder if other peoples experience is similar

[raistlinz]

Ok, I have tested this about 12 times so far (on heroic) and to be honest I am either the worst most unlucky player ever, or I am missing something. At the end of day 1 I am about 4th level (which I admit is not bad). I go from the castle to left circling arround the castle, capturing everything I can, and building as suggested. Though I did find that for the most part the resources were just enough to go forward. I even purchase a 2nd hero and give all their troops to my starting person but 1 creature. They become my shuttle service (for new troops). Day 2 is a bit rougher, low mana and my troops took a pounding from 3 stacks of marksmen. But I manage to take the entire left side and make it to the well. And that is where I pretty much should have stopped for the rest of the week. The right side is crazy. 6 times and at least 1 key area (like the gem mine) is always guarded by Master Hunters, or Elder Druids, or even some heavy upgraded meatshield. Either way, with the losses I've suffered (all 12 times) it is impossible to get at least one of these key dwellings. Even MoTW doesn't help. Can't rush them if they are ranged or casters (way too slow units and by the time you reach them your main group of gremlins are about slaughtered). Can't sit them in the corner (lightning will target your gremlins or even worse if upgraded stone spikes). If you take time to MoTW then that is another attack they get. Sure I can take out a stack of ranged or casters every time I cast, but there are typically 3 stacks. Goodbye gremlins (they don't target the single unit gremlins at all). If they are walkers it takes 2 or 3 casts even with MoTW to take one stack down, and that does not help your units much. Usually 3 stacks (again) and sure you get a couple of casts before they reach you, and your single units can tie them up for 1 or 2 rounds, but if even one stack reaches your gremlins you are pretty much done for the week. So at best by day 3 you are sitting doing nothing, but you have some serious levels. I've tried Havez, Nur, and Jhora four times each. Same basic problem. Even with hiring all the gremlins I can, having a second heroes army, and going the side that has the exp boost and mana well close if I fight ranged, heavy walkers, or casters they decimate me. If I don't I can't claim any of the dwellings.

My skills were fine. MoTW 1st day and had expert sorcery and usually an advanced magic skill by end of first day. I took light, Summons, Destruction, and had advanced summons most of the time (the others seem to not be offered as much for some reason). The time I did the best however I had Advanced destruction, master of storms, and lightning bolt. All in all I am either missing something, or this strategy works only if you don't get the mines the first week. Steel golems, Plague Zombies, and Elder Druids just have to be avoided period, until you have some serious level/magic (and preferably mages). Of course this is just 12 tries, maybe in 12 more things will be different.

Thank you for trying so hard!

Day 1 with 4 level up is great, but I wonder you cast spells a little bit too much. Some tips I can show you.

1 We hire a 2nd hero all the time, even 3rd hero. The army they bring are useful for the 1st week.

2 Don't cast spells all the time. Eldritch Arrow cost 3 mana, it's cheap but not endless, try to make full use of your Master Gremlins with Stone Gargoyle around.

3 Master Hunters & Elder Druids is tough for week 1, you can wait. But creature like Steel golems & Plague Zombies is walking exp for me. Just has something to do with the tactics before the battle. If Master Hunters & Elder Druids guard some stuff you really need, you can upgrade your Gargoyle then take it on the battle field, hide the Master Gremlins, combine with hero's magic, you can take them with lower loss.

4 Havez must enhance war machines as fast as he can(first aid/ballista), that will helps a lot when you rush the map.

[Mytical]

To my suprise the toughest fight (walkers) I faced was War Dancers. They made it past my gargoyles so fast it was a joke. (hitting multiple at one time). My poor gremies got slaughtered.

[raistlinz]

To my suprise the toughest fight (walkers) I faced was War Dancers. They made it past my gargoyles so fast it was a joke. (hitting multiple at one time). My poor gremies got slaughtered.

Yea, War Dancers is the toughest walker in week 1, their initiative is very high.

Still, take them by your tactics, make good position for the Stone Gargoyle to block the way(1 in each stack and bigger ones around Master Gremlins. That's just the theory, must practice it several times.

But if it's horde of them, you should think about wait till the next week.

[86wyp]

Ok, I have tested this about 12 times

holy shit 12 times! What a hard work my friend.

so far (on heroic) and to be honest I am either the worst most unlucky player ever, or I am missing something.

I am sure you missed sth.

At the end of day 1 I am about 4th level (which I admit is not bad).

This is good.

I go from the castle to left circling arround the castle, capturing everything I can, and building as suggested. Though I did find that for the most part the resources were just enough to go forward. I even purchase a 2nd hero and give all their troops to my starting person but 1 creature. They become my shuttle service (for new troops).

Good. You do need a second hero.

Day 2 is a bit rougher, low mana and my troops took a pounding from 3 stacks of marksmen. But I manage to take the entire left side and make it to the well.

There is a trick to save mana for nur, go find it. For other heroes you shouldn't waste arrows.

And that is where I pretty much should have stopped for the rest of the week. The right side is crazy. 6 times and at least 1 key area (like the gem mine) is always guarded by Master Hunters, or Elder Druids, or even some heavy upgraded meatshield. Either way, with the losses I've suffered (all 12 times) it is impossible to get at least one of these key dwellings. Even MoTW doesn't help. Can't rush them if they are ranged or casters (way too slow units and by the time you reach them your main group of gremlins are about slaughtered). Can't sit them in the corner (lightning will target your gremlins or even worse if upgraded stone spikes). If you take time to MoTW then that is another attack they get. Sure I can take out a stack of ranged or casters every time I cast, but there are typically 3 stacks. Goodbye gremlins (they don't target the single unit gremlins at all).

OK I believe you missed sth. here. Go check raistlinz's post and you will find the trick to beat ranged units. And btw 8 groups of ranged mobs every time? If that's ture then you are really the worst most unlucky player

If they are walkers it takes 2 or 3 casts even with MoTW to take one stack down, and that does not help your units much. Usually 3 stacks (again) and sure you get a couple of casts before they reach you, and your single units can tie them up for 1 or 2 rounds, but if even one stack reaches your gremlins you are pretty much done for the week.

Oh here you need some other tricks to beat walkers. I really don't understand why you always have problems vs them.

So at best by day 3 you are sitting doing nothing, but you have some serious levels. I've tried Havez, Nur, and Jhora four times each. Same basic problem. Even with hiring all the gremlins I can, having a second heroes army, and going the side that has the exp boost and mana well close if I fight ranged, heavy walkers, or casters they decimate me. If I don't I can't claim any of the dwellings.

You should be able to fight most of them. And if you stop by day 3 you will sure lose no matter what faction you play.

My skills were fine. MoTW 1st day and had expert sorcery and usually an advanced magic skill by end of first day. I took light, Summons, Destruction, and had advanced summons most of the time (the others seem to not be offered as much for some reason). The time I did the best however I had Advanced destruction, master of storms, and lightning bolt. All in all I am either missing something, or this strategy works only if you don't get the mines the first week. Steel golems, Plague Zombies, and Elder Druids just have to be avoided period, until you have some serious level/magic (and preferably mages). Of course this is just 12 tries, maybe in 12 more things will be different.

You need new strategies against mobs, it seems to me that almost all kinds of mobs can be a big problem to you. I can't imagine why, but if you continue to test with these problems then it will be a waste of time.