Holy crap-You MUST see this! (academy strat)

[86wyp]

Zuraffo:

First thank you for visiting our forum
For the rules, We have time limit because we don't want a long and sleepy game, instead we want to see more fierce fights. We have map limit because first those maps are kinda easy to rush, so it will be easy to achieve the time limit. Some other rules are just used to dicide who win, they don't matter.

This strategy is created for rush though it can be useful in most maps(I can't say all because we have not tested all) It is certain that haven and necropolis will become very powerful after 6 weeks, so I think maybe Academy need different strategies for a long fight.

Banedon:

We welcome debate. Actually we have already learned things that will help us a lot in the furture. Many of your words, no matter desrespectful or not, are quite intelligent and personally I am very happy discussing with you.

[Jolly Joker]

We'll see how the 2.1 changes on Necro and Haven racials will work.
If it's right that the game is over after 35 days you have to rush as well.
Since the game ends after 35 days Haven has to rush as well and train Marksmen, imo, forgoing Angels. Haven needs Light Magic to be able to counter Academy's magic. Mass Cleansing would be nice.
Necro is a bit handicapped because I don't think they can mass enough Skeletons on Mystic's Vale and the resource demands for Necro are pretty incredible. If you can pick a hero, I'd try probably Naadir or Vladimir because the way to go seems to be to get Haunted Mines as soon as possible and go magic as well: I don't think you'll get the necessary resources within 35 days to get all the creatures you want, so it seems right to try and take as many Skeletons and Ghosts you can and invest into magic as well. That means Attack, Defense, Dark, Summoning and probably Enlightenment as well: Basis Enlightenment is a very powerful level up when you get it and the ideal sixth slot filler, giving you something like 5 or 6 primary points immediately when getting it late.

[86wyp]

Banedon

Kaspar got wachines automaticly, very bad isn't it?

[Banedon]

Well yes, time limits are good. But then you ought to say so first, since many people thought you were claiming it to be THE most effective strategy in the game (and your original post at Heroes Community certainly said so).

And thank you. Would you mind replaying that fight between Vittorio and Nur, using the strategy I outlined for Vittorio? It makes perfect sense to me - and an absolute counter that should wreck Nur. I don't see the point in Squires; I personally would rather have another 60 Marksmen. 270 Marksmen, blessed by Magical Immunity, protected by Peasants from the Phoenixes, should be the end...

After Vittorio blesses the Marksmen, the next target would be the Champions. I truthfully can't see how Nur hopes to beat two units that are completely immune to his weapons - it's not just Dark Magic; if he'd gotten Destructive Magic he would have lost as well. If it's Light Magic then maybe not, but since Light Magic doesn't influence the battle directly that much, the overwhelming superiority of the Haven force might still force a victory.

EDIT: You mean he starts with it? See why I'm not that experienced at Heroes 5 Well then at least he shouldn't level it up.

[DaemianLucifer]

1 The reason why the battle is lopsided is the strategy. The dungeon player is good, but the academy player with this strategy is even better that both level & skills are much better. If you still don't buy it, I'll say no more.

See,thats what I dont get:Yes,the strategy is good against a player when you develop correctly,and get correct creatures.But mostly due to the fact that the enemy cannot counter all your magic.But why does it enable you to creep faster than your enemy?How come MMR makes you better against neutrals then the rest?Necro can spread much faster,so should get more xp,thus would be at least 2 levels above you.Dungeon can rush the neutrals just as effective,so how come it is 4 levels lower?And those 4 levels can indeed make a difference.And,as you said,focusing on matriarchs was a mistake.As was using implosion against resistant creatures.Ice circle and lightning with master of ice/lightning are much more effective.Did yrwanna even have those?You didnt show the feat page.

Ask DL I will debate with him to we are both blue in the face.

I am always red.And you lack the skill to even sway me

[raistlinz]

#1. Then the first means nothing, because a weaker player lost to a better player. It has to happen.
#2. No, I do not intend to provoke you. I'm just showing you how offensive you have been. If you want to continue being so, sure - but then don't expect polite responses from us, either.
#3. Oh, claim my Chinese is not good? What makes you say that? What makes you think I'm not Chinese?
#4. Your tournament is based on a 35-day game. No wonder Logistics can't shine. And Logistics isn't meant to be useful in battle; it's meant to be useful outside of it. Do you learn Logistics in Heroes 3?
#5. Give me a battle which you think can prove something then. I do want to prove it (and from your response, I take it that you agree that Haven ought to have won that battle?).
#6. Yes, and good luck on that. The strategy has caused me some major headaches.

Ok, forget all that trash. (1 thing: if you're chinese, how can you come up with "laowai" means offensive and racism? ) But that's not the point, so I'll stop.

Maybe I'll have a battle this weekend, then I'll post it.

Good luck to you too.

[zuraffo]

zuraffo - Now that you mention it...

Yes, you're right. I read the rules as:

1. Games are always 1v1. No computers, no third players.
2. You may not use a hero that is not aligned to your race as your main hero (in other words, no using Nur to command a Dungeon force).
3. If one sides opts to defend the Castle, even if he wins, the game is considered a draw.
4. Both sides are not encouraged to avoid battle, and if 35 days run up, then the player with the most towns win.
5. HR cannot be used; MF can. I interpret HR as 'hit and run', since a phrase after says 'unless you're using a secondary hero and that hero gets caught'. No idea what MF is.

I think MF might mean Mine Flag. Hit and Run means instant transportation back to town. Maybe that's why Logistic isn't that important.

In any case, even though these are results from very specific circumstance, they might prove useful to Academy players who need that extra edge. A strong start and a clear advantage goes a long way, even in a normal game. If an Academy player can be dominant before week 5, he might be able to ride out the advantage, especially on a small map. On a bigger map, however, it might be more balanced. Note all these (what I said) was all theory-craft, since I have already said I don't play Multiplayer, so don't take me seriously. lol

[raistlinz]

See,thats what I dont get:Yes,the strategy is good against a player when you develop correctly,and get correct creatures.But mostly due to the fact that the enemy cannot counter all your magic.But why does it enable you to creep faster than your enemy?How come MMR makes you better against neutrals then the rest?Necro can spread much faster,so should get more xp,thus would be at least 2 levels above you.Dungeon can rush the neutrals just as effective,so how come it is 4 levels lower?And those 4 levels can indeed make a difference.And,as you said,focusing on matriarchs was a mistake.As was using implosion against resistant creatures.Ice circle and lightning with master of ice/lightning are much more effective.Did yrwanna even have those?You didnt show the feat page.

In MMR, we don't need more money to build a huge army, so week1 we can take exp from nearly all of the chest, that's one thing. When hero's level is high, it would make is easier to rush most of the creatures with little cost. So we can make a academy hero level 10 or more in 7 days.

[zuraffo]

Jolly Joker,

According to their tournament rules, the main hero is fixed before the game. So you can't really chose your main hero per-say.

We'll see how the 2.1 changes on Necro and Haven racials will work.
If it's right that the game is over after 35 days you have to rush as well.
Since the game ends after 35 days Haven has to rush as well and train Marksmen, imo, forgoing Angels. Haven needs Light Magic to be able to counter Academy's magic. Mass Cleansing would be nice.
Necro is a bit handicapped because I don't think they can mass enough Skeletons on Mystic's Vale and the resource demands for Necro are pretty incredible. If you can pick a hero, I'd try probably Naadir or Vladimir because the way to go seems to be to get Haunted Mines as soon as possible and go magic as well: I don't think you'll get the necessary resources within 35 days to get all the creatures you want, so it seems right to try and take as many Skeletons and Ghosts you can and invest into magic as well. That means Attack, Defense, Dark, Summoning and probably Enlightenment as well: Basis Enlightenment is a very powerful level up when you get it and the ideal sixth slot filler, giving you something like 5 or 6 primary points immediately when getting it late.

[DaemianLucifer]

In MMR, we don't need more money to build a huge army, so week1 we can take exp from nearly all of the chest, that's one thing. When hero's level is high, it would make is easier to rush most of the creatures with little cost. So we can make a academy hero level 10 or more in 7 days.

So can anyone.Why is the academy the only one taking XP from chests?Why didnt the rest do the same?Necro surelly can do it,without worries.And without investing in creatures,how do you win against:Gargoyels,hunters,druids,mages,unicorns in the first week?If your crucial mine(ore or gold)is guarded by one of these,what do you do then?

[zuraffo]

Hey,

I have a suggestion, why don't you guys duplicate the tournament thingy here? See if the players here will pick it up and have different results. It's not all about the Academy Heroes you know. If I am not wrong, this week's line up is who? Dougal vs Kasper, right?

[DaemianLucifer]

That really is an interesting idea.Might just get Banedon to see that dungeon is not that weak after all (Im joking,Banedon.Dont be offended)

[Banedon]

Ok, forget all that trash. (1 thing: if you're chinese, how can you come up with "laowai" means offensive and racism? ) But that's not the point, so I'll stop.

Maybe I'll have a battle this weekend, then I'll post it.

Good luck to you too.

I asked my friend, and yes, he agrees that it's not offensive (apologies for that). As for 'racism', it's the wrong word to use, but I can't think of another. What I really meant was that it means...well...'they'. You're referring to us all in a way that separates you from us. Racism is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one.

Anyway MF = Mine Flag? Highly unlikely in my opinion. Nobody would play a game with an explicit rule that you can't flag mines. I think it's taken for granted by everyone.

[DaemianLucifer]

Anyway MF = Mine Flag? Highly unlikely in my opinion. Nobody would play a game with an explicit rule that you can't flag mines. I think it's taken for granted by everyone.

Why not?A map with just piles,windmills and marketplace could prove to be a very interesting one

[Mytical]

@DL who wrote :
I am always red.And you lack the skill to even sway me

Not lack of skill as much as the fact that you would argue anything regardless . Even if I put forth the most concrete proof of something you'd still argue. And you have yet to sway me either.

@general

The rush game is a little hindered for a lot of the factions, but some can do great at rush.

For necros (not much starting magic) you pretty much have to have a hero with skellies as special to rush. Raise dead helps if you have the spell (if not it will be at least day 3).

Haven suffers because it is their level 2, not their level 1's that need upgraded (though only a little mind). Archer special or training special would be the best here.

Inferno has a tough time because no shooters for a bit (but if you get somebody with a succubi special you are gold ). Gating helps tremediously however.

Dungeon do to low spellpoints, even if more spellpower. They also have a 1st level shooter, but it suffers extra range penalty (makes up for it with posion but undead is their bane).

Sylvan really is hampered. Sprites are good and all but they die easy. However many wasp swarms can't hurt. Once they get hunters and druids (which might take a bit) though, they will rip through neutrals like nothing. Hope for somebody with a hunter or druid special.

Maybe the split sprite wasp swarm tactic would be the best counter for this tactic (ugrade those pixies?). Since they can hit from far (a couple of times) and no retal, just might work. Avoid undead though .

[zuraffo]

Anyway MF = Mine Flag? Highly unlikely in my opinion. Nobody would play a game with an explicit rule that you can't flag mines. I think it's taken for granted by everyone.

If MF = Mine Flag, the rule taken as a whole would be "Hit and Run tactics can only be used in Mine Flag, but not in Hero Fight, unless it's a secondary and he get caught."

Can someone who make these rules clarify? I prefer not to guess, thank you very much.

[raistlinz]

So can anyone.Why is the academy the only one taking XP from chests?Why didnt the rest do the same?Necro surelly can do it,without worries.And without investing in creatures,how do you win against:Gargoyels,hunters,druids,mages,unicorns in the first week?If your crucial mine(ore or gold)is guarded by one of these,what do you do then?

I don't think "so can anyone", with MMR, academy can use only 1-3 grade army to fight, that will leave enough money for magic and congress. Can other race do the same? Necro can do it, then how can you bring up wraith
in week 2? If wraith is not enough, how many skeletons can you have in 35 days to beat academy with phenix or implosion?

About all the creature you listed: not only academy, all player don't like to meet them. So I say it depends. If what they guard is crucial to me I'll take it anyway. And the rest, with level 6 or higher and if Gargoyle is enough, I can take most of them(mage could be tough one), maybe not in week 1.

[zuraffo]

@DL who wrote :
Maybe the split sprite wasp swarm tactic would be the best counter for this tactic (ugrade those pixies?). Since they can hit from far (a couple of times) and no retal, just might work. Avoid undead though .

I read somewhere that Wasp cast by Sprite doesn't have the delay effect like Heroes do. Can someone clarify this?

[DaemianLucifer]

I don't think "so can anyone", with MMR, academy can use only 1-3 grade army to fight, that will leave enough money for magic and congress. Can other race do the same? Necro can do it, then how can you bring up wraith
in week 2? If wraith is not enough, how many skeletons can you have in 35 days to beat academy with phenix or implosion?

Necro doesnt have to pay for mini artifacts and for mage guild,so it can put all those resources in town development.As for the phoenix and implosion,what if you get neither?

About all the creature you listed: not only academy, all player don't like to meet them. So I say it depends. If what they guard is crucial to me I'll take it anyway. And the rest, with level 6 or higher and if Gargoyle is enough, I can take most of them(mage could be tough one), maybe not in week 1.

Yep,no one likes them,but that doesnt mean no one cant beat them without losses.Necro can.Dungeon can if lucky.And so can sylvan.

I read somewhere that Wasp cast by Sprite doesn't have the delay effect like Heroes do. Can someone clarify this?

Thats correct,no delay.They can be countered either by spell from your hero,by wraiths or pitlords,or by simply killing the rest of the enemy first.

[86wyp]

Sorry MF has the same meaning as leveling.

Banedon and others your suggestion have been posted on our forum and lets just wait.

Thank you for all those precious suggestions