Holy crap-You MUST see this! (academy strat)

[Banedon]

Who's willing to volunter optimal skills for Vittorio before I test it out?

Anyway here's a translation of the description of the battle between Vittorio and Nur:

This battle was very fierce, but Mass Slow and Mass Confusion were really very powerful. This was augmented by Vittorio not having Mass Cleansing, but Vittorio did have Magical Immunity. Magical Immunity could not only remove curses, it would also prevent the target from being cursed again. Nur didn't have high SpellPower so the Phoenix wasn't of much use while Vittorio's three stacks of Marksmen performed brilliantly. But in the end Vittorio (who, in the first battle, did not face Dark Magic) had no idea what spells Nur would cast, and who could have known that the only spells in the Academy Mage Guild would be Dark Magic? Fortunately he had learned Light Magic and Magical Immunity or he would have lost even more badly. In the end Nur won (and a lot of irrelevant stuff).

[86wyp]

*sighs* let me try this again. I never said I don't believe you, if you play Mystic Vale enough I am sure you can do a bang up job. As for Dungeon not creeping as fast as you, well I do disagree but because I have played both many ways, not just out of the top of my head. I am probably one of the worst players MP that you could ever find, but I would be willing to meet you in MP on any map that start out pretty equal on both sides. (ie same basic resources, same type guardians ect) with neither side knowing the map at all. Preferably some type of random map so it would be impossible to know before hand. Your creeping would not work. Even if the thing was very resource rich, if we started on heroic. When you found me I would be about the same level, with a much bigger army, and you would find a much harder task of defeating me. Like I said, I am a horrible MP player. If you can't beat me with this strategy then it is not a very good one. If you do not only will I willingly admit defeat but make a public appology. Simple ay?

I don't know now whether it is possible or not, but we are eager to play with players on this forum and AoH. We have been talking about it since yesterday. But I don't think we will be willing to play you because we will send our best player and we want to see the best in your forum.

[raistlinz]

#4: I will ask my friend on this. It still seems degrading to me, but I'll ask him if it has non-degrading uses.

#5: You cannot convince anyone that the strategy works unless there exists grounds for making it work. Suppose I told you I can beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins. Will you believe me? Obviously not. Then I'll start scolding you for not trying it out. Would you try? Well unless you're a real maniac, no - there's no need to! So unless I can provide a convincing way to show that 3 Gremlins beat 10 Titans, you don't even need to get started.

Anyway I read hostility in your posts. One of your latest specifically stated "otherwise I myself can stuff their mouths". That's certainly offensive.

@Logistics - you're very courageous not to take it. The player with Logistics would move faster and therefore threaten you more. With Logistics Vittorio might have taken the Academy town early...

I may not be the best Heroes 5 player around - in fact, I doubt I can maneuveur the heroes around in such a way to achieve all that you mention about speed developing (well, not yet). But in the battle itself I fancy myself competent, and I will test the most unbelievable of the Academy wins: that against the Haven force. If you can, do provide the Academy player's skills. I'll ask the optimal Haven skills from the other players here.

EDIT: 86wyp - you're remarkably arrogant. First you say we have no idea how to play Academy. Then you say we have no idea how to play Necropolis. But what makes you so sure that your own way of playing Necropolis is not flawed?

Ok, you can ask for it.

5 is^_^, ok, if you can beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins, take pics to prove it, ok?

Our strategy works well now, with lots of pic to prove. You think it's the same as "beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins", obviously not. So stop kidding and be more reasonable.

"otherwise I myself can stuff their mouths". I said that, may be you can translate it like: I'll make them shut the hell up", is it better for you point? If you think I'm offensive, I'm ok with that, as long as it's not the issue of this post. It has nothing to do with the topic so stop messing up.

Logistics-you said it's good for haven, but it's MMR with academy, so academy don't need it anyway in this strategy.

About academy vs haven: the match will be soon this weekend(I don't know if it's between this 2 but there will be in the quarterfinal or semifinal, maybe final)and there will be fierce battle then, you can wait for the news.

86 may be a little bit rude. But guys here are not so elegant either. If not there won't be words like "cheat or hack", that seems even more offensive to all the players.

[Mytical]

All in all it is a great strategy. It can work, with a LOT of luck, your enemy being unlucky, and lots of resources. It is feasible and doable, but yes very map and resource dependant. Dungeon can do about the same to a lesser extint (low mana but more damage output) and assassins have the extra bonus of poison (even if lower damage initially). Also it doesn't hurt bad to loose assassins. (Furies yes, assasins not so much). If they can get master Destruct magic and Sorcery, they like Wizards can basically walk over most of the neutrals.

You know what, I have said sth. and it seems that you don't give a **** of it and you even don't want to have a try(I know you have tried a lot before). In the first week Academy is much faster than dungeon no matter what dungeon hero you choose. Anyway you won't believe too.

For Jhora's fight, four more levels won't buff your magical damage much, and 5 dragons won't survive more than 1 turn. you have only Implosion in that fight but can cast empowered implosion only three times. Of course that is not enough,and don't forget Jhora had resurrection. One more thing, in that game dungeon had less resources than Academy due to the fact I have said so the player went for matriarch instead of the dragons because he saw the Bow. That was a huge mistake because his mighty matriarch was cleared by one implosion. But the problem was the dungeon player had not know what magic Academy had, so if itwas me i may still go for matriarch.

For the Kaspar fight yes both players made mistakes that fight(as i said Academy didn't bring all of its army) but Academy still beat an army which was twice as big. If you think kaspar's skills are useless then it means that you don't know how to play necroplois, although I agree that it would be better to choose defense instead of enlightenment.

If you didn't see it I will claim it again on this forum: every player in those games is one of our best.

I am not even now talking about these obviously lopsided fights. (the one person having great skills and the other so so). I am talking about fights where the skills are more balanced and logical. Apparantly we are discussing two different things. Me I am trying to explain that in 5 weeks (or 3 or 2 or whatever) you will not be able to take a skilled opponit unless a) everything falls into place (ie you get really lucky and opponit gets unlucky), b) you have a really resource rich map, or c) both a and b. Academy's big downfall is resources, you can not unless some mirical come along build all that in 21 days and have mini artifacts as well. Not on Heroic.

If your best (using this strategy you put forth) can not even beat our worst, why would our best bother?

[86wyp]

I have never said you don't know how to play Academy, or maybe I just forgot, would you mind proof it? if you can then I am terribly sorry for that. But if you cannot proof that I said it then I think it should be you to say sorry to me.

I have never said you don't know how to play Necroplois but some of you said kaspar's skills are useless and that sounds ridiculous to me and I considered it dsrespectful to the kaspar player. If you can convince me that kaspar's skills are really useless then I would not only say sorry to you but also say thank you for you helped me.

[raistlinz]

I am not even now talking about these obviously lopsided fights. (the one person having great skills and the other so so). I am talking about fights where the skills are more balanced and logical. Apparantly we are discussing two different things. Me I am trying to explain that in 5 weeks (or 3 or 2 or whatever) you will not be able to take a skilled opponit unless a) everything falls into place (ie you get really lucky and opponit gets unlucky), b) you have a really resource rich map, or c) both a and b. Academy's big downfall is resources, you can not unless some mirical come along build all that in 21 days and have mini artifacts as well. Not on Heroic.

If your best (using this strategy you put forth) can not even beat our worst, why would our best bother?

I just said to you I'll spread the words to our bbs about the map " no man's land, and there are 2 players take it. So just stop telling junks about impossible this and impossible that, just wait. (Map trofile, have magic guild lv5 in 3 weeks seems not good enough to you )

For the last part, I just say one thing: don't bother your aces until you think it's necessary.

[Banedon]

Our strategy works well now, with lots of pic to prove. You think it's the same as "beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins", obviously not. So stop kidding and be more reasonable.

The problem is, according to many, you've fought a lopsided battle. It's like in Heroes 3. I have Castle and 100 Marksmen. You have Rampart, but guess what? You focused on Battle Dwarves, not Grand Elves. Now that is amazing, ridiculous and thoroughly uncalled for.

stefan.urlus pointed out that the Necropolis player should have Battle Frenzy and Vitality, and he is right, since Necropolis relies on the low-level Skeleton Archers. To fight a battle without it isn't clever, it's like fighting Rampart vs. Castle without Grand Elves. So the point is, your screenshots haven't really proven that the strategy works.

"otherwise I myself can stuff their mouths". I said that, may be you can translate it like: I'll make them shut the hell up", is it better for you point? If you think I'm offensive, I'm ok with that, as long as it's not the issue of this post. It has nothing to do with the topic so stop messing up.

Maybe it has nothing to do with this topic, but that phrase - like so many others - just resolves me to go against this strategy, regardless of whether it works or not. And, if you are courteous to me I will be courteous to you. If you go around spreading these sort of words in your forum, you can expect what's going to happen here.

86 may be a little bit rude. But guys here are not so elegant either. If not there won't be words like "cheat or hack", that seems even more offensive to all the players.

Perhaps it's because you live in China that you think like this, and you lump everyone of us together as 'the other side'. No, that's not the case. I'm not Mytical, Jolly Joker, Sir_Toejam, Pitsu, DaemianLucifer or whatever. I'm a different person, and I do not think I've been offensive to you. Neither do I think you have been offensive to me (well, not a lot, and those that I do see I classify as you being not-so-familiar with English.

Logistics-you said it's good for haven, but it's MMR with academy, so academy don't need it anyway in this strategy.

So Academy doesn't. Academy moves slower. The Academy army will never be able to outmaneuveur the Haven army, and yet for some reason the Haven army was the attacker in the screenshots you pictured. Why would the Haven army attack one that's slower than it? He ought at least to wait a week and beat the army before the reinforcements arrived. I don't know. I'm not that familiar with Heroes 5 yet.

Anyway: I am going to test the battle, but I don't have Nur's stats. Can you provide it? And Vittorio's as well. For this battle we'll remove all artifacts (both to equal things and to make things simpler for me). I take it Nur's strategy is to cast Mass Confusion followed by Mass Slow, and then either Phantom Forces or Summon Phoenix?

Vittorio would make some smart decisions as well. As the attacker in the battle, he would note what creature it was that you chose to split - the Gargoyles. He would then split his Marksmen into stacks (of 5 Marksmen, maybe?) such that each Marksmen shot can kill one of your tanking units. I personally would just lump all the remaining Marksmen together and prioritize Magical Immunity on them. You might say I have the privelege of knowing that Nur will be casting Dark Magic. It's possible, but if you consider the options it's also reasonable. Nur has magic, that I know, of which one is Summoning Magic. The others are Light, Dark and Destructive. Among these three Light Magic is no threat; the other I can neutralize with Magical Immunity. I therefore make a calculated gamble: if you were unfortunate enough to receive only Light Magic spells in the mage guild, I would win the battle anyway since your greatest asset is gone.

[86wyp]

Mytical

I can't convince you and you can't convince me, that's it. Maybe there will be a game in the furture(I am not sure now) but if you want to play it, then I think we won't send our best too. Oh of course we won't send bad players since that would be considered not respectful.

Banedon iam waiting for your to show me proof or appologize and I am beging for your advice.

[Mytical]

Oh I wouldn't be playing Academy in this little test. That would be a moot point (both of us creeping ect). And I am not trying to be rude or get you guys angry. I am just stating the flaws I see in the strategy. Not that it is not a magnificent strategy. I will give you kudos for that. My thoughts are that I want to see it in action, against me. Then I will know exactly how effective it is. Not too much to ask I think. Not in mystic vale (which I don't know and you do) but in a map neither of us know at all. Maybe we can get a neautral mapmaker to make two identical starting areas and see just how effective it can be. I alrady appologized for the remark I made, but I am a show me person. Show me. Not screen shots, not words, show me how effective it is.

[Banedon]

The posts are advancing so fast I have to type a new post instead of edit like I normally would

86wyp - though you never said that we don't know how to play Academy, you implied it: you mentioned a strategy which (you believe at least; I don't know) we have not thought of before that appears superior. That mans we implicitly don't know how to play Academy.

As for Kaspar's skills, well the reasons are all there. Battle Frenzy and Vitality are two skills Kaspar ought to have, since he is focusing on Skeleton Archers. He didn't prioritize them. What happened?

PS: Double posts are, I think, against the rules here, especially since I am bound to read your post. You might want to edit it before one of the Mods do it for you.

EDIT: Begging is a bit too far - you don't have to grovel like that, surely? I am hardly the best player here (at least for Heroes 5) as well. Don't beg me, beg someone else

[Jolly Joker]

People, get real here.
The fact that Haven and Necro may have played suboptimal doesn't change the fact that those guys play the right style with Academy. You have to play Academy more to the magic and racial side then to the creature's side because that will indeed allow you to go for resources faster and better than on creatures.
It makes no sense to debate this because it is right. Of course the actual build order and stuff depends on the map and what is provided, but the underlying basic principle is sound.

[DaemianLucifer]

Our strategy works well now, with lots of pic to prove. You think it's the same as "beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins", obviously not. So stop kidding and be more reasonable.

No,those pics just show that on the map in question academy develops faster then the rest.Besides,the heroes that faced academy were weak.Either due to bad development,or worse guardian placement,I dont know which.I still say that the strategy is very map dependable.Play it on a resource poor map and lets see how it fares then.Play it 1 on 1 on a small map,and lets see how it fares then,when it gets rushed before the first month ends.

[zuraffo]

I need to put some perspective into this discussion.

According to their forum, the screenshots appear to be the results of a sort of tournament they are having over there. It's a tournament with very specific circumstances:

1. Hero specific: Main hero is fixed before the game.
2. Rush: 35 days limit. If the limit is reached, the player with most town wins.
3. If a player play defensive in town and win it is considered a draw.
4. There are certain techniques that are not allowed in heroes fight. HR (?) can only be used in MF (?) Since I don't play multiplayer, nor partake in these online discussion much, I don't know what are they.
5. Main hero must be on the map.

I think it's mainly the rush setting the and map that makes this strategy so potent. Otherwise, although it might be a useful strategy, it might not be over-powered.

I am willing to believe in the authenticity of the screenshots. Mainly it will be a total waste of time to produce a bunch of fake screenshots in order to convince more people to waste more time.

And from what I glimpse of their forum, it's a rather new development. I believe counters will be found soon.

[Banedon]

People, get real here.
The fact that Haven and Necro may have played suboptimal doesn't change the fact that those guys play the right style with Academy. You have to play Academy more to the magic and racial side then to the creature's side because that will indeed allow you to go for resources faster and better than on creatures.
It makes no sense to debate this because it is right. Of course the actual build order and stuff depends on the map and what is provided, but the underlying basic principle is sound.

Do me a favour and write specifically that 'I'm not csarmi'?

Anyway there is a reason to debate. Apparently the MMR strategy is working so well that none of the races have an adequate counter yet. This is certainly debatable, and even if it's the right way to play Academy it certainly goes against some of the points claimed.

[86wyp]

The posts are advancing so fast I have to type a new post instead of edit like I normally would

86wyp - though you never said that we don't know how to play Academy, you implied it: you mentioned a strategy which (you believe at least; I don't know) we have not thought of before that appears superior. That mans we implicitly don't know how to play Academy.

As for Kaspar's skills, well the reasons are all there. Battle Frenzy and Vitality are two skills Kaspar ought to have, since he is focusing on Skeleton Archers. He didn't prioritize them. What happened?

PS: Double posts are, I think, against the rules here, especially since I am bound to read your post. You might want to edit it before one of the Mods do it for you.

EDIT: Begging is a bit too far - you don't have to grovel like that, surely? I am hardly the best player here (at least for Heroes 5) as well. Don't beg me, beg someone else

I really didn't mean it, and even if I mean it I will never point at you because I know from the beginning that you are an experienced player. Anyway if any of my word hurt you or any others on this forum you have my sorry.

Forgivemy poor English I just could not think a word other than beg would you mind give me some advice?

About the skills yes those are important abilities for archers, but first kasper did learned BF and second kaspar didn't learned defense didn't mean his skills useless. Some of you said it. Is it you? If it isn't then you don't have to get mad because I am not pointing at you.

Mytical

I appologize to you about my offensiveness. I believe we will get chance playing homm5 together some day. If so, no matter who will win I will enjoyed it whatever. Hope we can make friends.

[raistlinz]

Our strategy works well now, with lots of pic to prove. You think it's the same as "beat 10 Titans with 3 Gremlins", obviously not. So stop kidding and be more reasonable.

The problem is, according to many, you've fought a lopsided battle. It's like in Heroes 3. I have Castle and 100 Marksmen. You have Rampart, but guess what? You focused on Battle Dwarves, not Grand Elves. Now that is amazing, ridiculous and thoroughly uncalled for.

stefan.urlus pointed out that the Necropolis player should have Battle Frenzy and Vitality, and he is right, since Necropolis relies on the low-level Skeleton Archers. To fight a battle without it isn't clever, it's like fighting Rampart vs. Castle without Grand Elves. So the point is, your screenshots haven't really proven that the strategy works.

"otherwise I myself can stuff their mouths". I said that, may be you can translate it like: I'll make them shut the hell up", is it better for you point? If you think I'm offensive, I'm ok with that, as long as it's not the issue of this post. It has nothing to do with the topic so stop messing up.

Maybe it has nothing to do with this topic, but that phrase - like so many others - just resolves me to go against this strategy, regardless of whether it works or not. And, if you are courteous to me I will be courteous to you. If you go around spreading these sort of words in your forum, you can expect what's going to happen here.

86 may be a little bit rude. But guys here are not so elegant either. If not there won't be words like "cheat or hack", that seems even more offensive to all the players.

Perhaps it's because you live in China that you think like this, and you lump everyone of us together as 'the other side'. No, that's not the case. I'm not Mytical, Jolly Joker, Sir_Toejam, Pitsu, DaemianLucifer or whatever. I'm a different person, and I do not think I've been offensive to you. Neither do I think you have been offensive to me (well, not a lot, and those that I do see I classify as you being not-so-familiar with English.

Logistics-you said it's good for haven, but it's MMR with academy, so academy don't need it anyway in this strategy.

So Academy doesn't. Academy moves slower. The Academy army will never be able to outmaneuveur the Haven army, and yet for some reason the Haven army was the attacker in the screenshots you pictured. Why would the Haven army attack one that's slower than it? He ought at least to wait a week and beat the army before the reinforcements arrived. I don't know. I'm not that familiar with Heroes 5 yet.

Anyway: I am going to test the battle, but I don't have Nur's stats. Can you provide it? And Vittorio's as well. For this battle we'll remove all artifacts (both to equal things and to make things simpler for me). I take it Nur's strategy is to cast Mass Confusion followed by Mass Slow, and then either Phantom Forces or Summon Phoenix?

Vittorio would make some smart decisions as well. As the attacker in the battle, he would note what creature it was that you chose to split - the Gargoyles. He would then split his Marksmen into stacks (of 5 Marksmen, maybe?) such that each Marksmen shot can kill one of your tanking units. I personally would just lump all the remaining Marksmen together and prioritize Magical Immunity on them. You might say I have the privelege of knowing that Nur will be casting Dark Magic. It's possible, but if you consider the options it's also reasonable. Nur has magic, that I know, of which one is Summoning Magic. The others are Light, Dark and Destructive. Among these three Light Magic is no threat; the other I can neutralize with Magical Immunity. I therefore make a calculated gamble: if you were unfortunate enough to receive only Light Magic spells in the mage guild, I would win the battle anyway since your greatest asset is gone.

1 The reason why the battle is lopsided is the strategy. The dungeon player is good, but the academy player with this strategy is even better that both level & skills are much better. If you still don't buy it, I'll say no more.

2 You've translate the tattles in our bbs, that's surly have some intent to make me look even worse. Maybe you can find something more like that there and bring a fight, is that what you want? I said, if you think I'm offensive, then I am. Is that matter?

3 Maybe my english is poor, but your chinese is not that good either, culture shocks all the time, I'm ok with that.

4 Keep concentrate on the strategy, I don't repel Logistics, Logistics is good--just based on certain condition. If you can prove the academy should learn Logistics rather than any other skills in this battle, prove it.

5 About the battle test: even the same player on the same map can't play the same battle, so anything can change if you redo it. The battle is a referrence, not a rule, that's the basic.

6 No strategy is invincible so I hope you can find your way to beat it. The player here is working on it too, no one want to see 2 academy player in the final.

[Mytical]

I agree. We should be friends . Just because I don't agree with all of something doesn't mean I don't like the main premise . Ask DL I will debate with him to we are both blue in the face. Jolly is a great guy, but I will debate him if I think he is mistaken. Nothing personal . Now I am going to have to try mystic vale with this strategy when I get home lol. I just got to see it first hand.

[zuraffo]

I am following this discussion with great interest because it's not everyday you see such messy miscommunication (actually, we do see it everyday).

According to one of the previous post in either Heroes community or Round Table, they explained that the critical skills for the undead player never kicked in, and the player was rushed before he could level up sufficiently.

As for the dungeon player... well, he was also derided on the board as poorly played. It's a shame most of you cannot read mandarin. It's rather funny to see how information and emotional connotation got twisted and lost in translation.

In any case, I think the solution is rather simple, just play a game, which should prove everything. (Here, my bit of constructive advice).

That said, I rather enjoy this exchange, so keep it up.

[Banedon]

I can hardly claim to be experienced at Heroes 5 - I only started playing it about a month ago, and I'm not even done with the campaigns. Heroes 3 and Heroes 4 I'm much better at. I can't give you any advice because I don't have any advice - like I said, I'm hardly experienced at Heroes 5.

Anyway War Machines seems to be totally useless on Kaspar to me (stress to me).

zuraffo - Now that you mention it...

Yes, you're right. I read the rules as:

1. Games are always 1v1. No computers, no third players.
2. You may not use a hero that is not aligned to your race as your main hero (in other words, no using Nur to command a Dungeon force).
3. If one sides opts to defend the Castle, even if he wins, the game is considered a draw.
4. Both sides are not encouraged to avoid battle, and if 35 days run up, then the player with the most towns win.
5. HR cannot be used; MF can. I interpret HR as 'hit and run', since a phrase after says 'unless you're using a secondary hero and that hero gets caught'. No idea what MF is.

No wonder there's the 'fight at week 5' criterion, and no wonder Vittorio did not try to defend the castle and fight only with an extra week's of reinforcement,s and no wonder Logistics is worthless. This isn't a complete game of Heroes; it's an idealization, and therefore you're right - maybe this is why the strategy is so potent.

EDIT:

1 The reason why the battle is lopsided is the strategy. The dungeon player is good, but the academy player with this strategy is even better that both level & skills are much better. If you still don't buy it, I'll say no more.

2 You've translate the tattles in our bbs, that's surly have some intent to make me look even worse. Maybe you can find something more like that there and bring a fight, is that what you want? I said, if you think I'm offensive, then I am. Is that matter?

3 Maybe my english is poor, but your chinese is not that good either, culture shocks all the time, I'm ok with that.

4 Keep concentrate on the strategy, I don't repel Logistics, Logistics is good--just based on certain condition. If you can prove the academy should learn Logistics rather than any other skills in this battle, prove it.

5 About the battle test: even the same player on the same map can't play the same battle, so anything can change if you redo it. The battle is a referrence, not a rule, that's the basic.

6 No strategy is invincible so I hope you can find your way to beat it. The player here is working on it too, no one want to see 2 academy player in the final.

#1. Then the first means nothing, because a weaker player lost to a better player. It has to happen.
#2. No, I do not intend to provoke you. I'm just showing you how offensive you have been. If you want to continue being so, sure - but then don't expect polite responses from us, either.
#3. Oh, claim my Chinese is not good? What makes you say that? What makes you think I'm not Chinese?
#4. Your tournament is based on a 35-day game. No wonder Logistics can't shine. And Logistics isn't meant to be useful in battle; it's meant to be useful outside of it. Do you learn Logistics in Heroes 3?
#5. Give me a battle which you think can prove something then. I do want to prove it (and from your response, I take it that you agree that Haven ought to have won that battle?).
#6. Yes, and good luck on that. The strategy has caused me some major headaches.

[raistlinz]

I agree. We should be friends . Just because I don't agree with all of something doesn't mean I don't like the main premise . Ask DL I will debate with him to we are both blue in the face. Jolly is a great guy, but I will debate him if I think he is mistaken. Nothing personal . Now I am going to have to try mystic vale with this strategy when I get home lol. I just got to see it first hand.

That's RIGHT!

If the test over(good or bad), just post it up then we can discuss.