I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[Banedon]

The Furies ARE real killers. The Raiders as well. You shouldn't forget the Raiders' special (no, not Lizard Bite but Rider Charge which means that if you move at least 5 spaces with them the opposing defense will always be 0 which means they will kill the high level 7 units of the opponent with the same ease as the low level ones. I mean, their base attack is 10. That means that they will even under a hero with attack 0 do 10-20 damage per Raider to ANY unit.

I really don't think Blood Furies qualify as Killer units. To be a good ranged killer there's only one criterion, damage. To be a good melee killer you not only have to have damage, you must also have the HP to withstand a few hits or the sheer numbers to shrug off some losses, or the ability to regenerate, or the ability to (somehow) take little or no damage in return. Blood Furies satisfy none of those. They cannot take damage; they must hit without taking it - and that is the problem. Finesse can only take you so far. An army built with just finesse-style creatures will fail miserably.

Against a Horde of Marksmen you can alternatively go in with 5 single Hydras and kill the Marksmen with the hero as well.
Battling what neutrals with what creatures depends on many things and is a question of experience and testing, but believe me you have a lot of attack power with the Dungeon.

What if you don't have Hydras yet? Once again the other races can, with some luck, win without losses (or negligible losses). Haven would deploy only the Imperial Griffins, Battle Dive and then physically take out all that remains of the Marksmen stack(s). Necropolis again doesn't care, just Animate dead all you lose. Inferno can split the Cerberi and rush them over (a crucial difference here with Blood Furies is that Cerberi are rather more durable). Sylvan would hope their Master Hunters get to act before the Marksmen, which would drastically reduce the Marksmen numbers and therefore the damage Sylvan takes.

There're other problems: what if you don't have enough Hydras? Or if it's a human you're facing, with whom you've had to (for some reason) fight a decisive battle before the level 7s come into play? Without level 7s Dungeon has (in my opinion) no killer units at all, unless the hero has Teleporting Assault (wherupon like I said, the Ranged creatures in the opponent's team would have a field day against the Hydras at full damage).

Why would the marksmen hit the furries in melee?First,furies will incapacitate one stack of them on their first go.If they get high morale,thats another stack.If not,the raiders come in and incapaciate the other stack(and block the third if there is one).Third stack(if there is one)is being killed by the hero(because they have such a pitifull initiative).

It's not so simple. Blood Furies grow at a slow pace, and so while you can deal heavy damage to the Marksmen stack(s), you can't really incapacitate them (I hazard you might, for example, kill half of them in a hit; or about 1 Marksman to 1 Blood Fury).

And then there's the matter where you're assuming you already have Tactics. What if you don't? Even if you prioritize it, you might not be offered it so soon, and the Warlock has to quickly learn Destructive Magic as well. If you don't have Tactics you are going to suffer. It's just not something that happens to the other races.

32 furries kill at least 10 succubi,and 70 assasins kill at least 10 more.20 grim raiders can charge also at least 10 of them to die.So unless you are really unlucky and they manage to both act first before those three creatures and your hero,I really dont see how you manage to loose.I remember that 30-60 succubi and succubi misstress stacks were quite a common fight there,and I never lost a single unit,especially because of aaeglrs special.

I didn't have Tactics, so they will get in one action. That was probably a mistake, but the basic problem Dungeon has against Ranged creature is still there. You need Tactics, yet even after you have Tactics you might still lose something.

Nice analysis! I'll argue that:
- familiars are killers
- archliches deal too little damage to be killers and are more finesse to me.

Odd you and I agree on almost everything

I can't see Familiars as killers though; I've always used them as Cannon Fodder. Place them in battle, start Gating and then you have 2x the Familiar stack to sacrifice. Archliches don't deal a lot of damage, yes, but then they're Ranged. If they were melee I would have classified them as Supporters.

Dungeon has deep hydras. You can usuallly have the hydra's wait (the button) and regenerate while the ranged units/magic users use up their shots/mana. Depending on the number of opponents, you might need to cast some spells. In fights like the 7 hydra's vs 40 succubi you mentioned I remember I used 1 or 2 teleports to have the hydra's regenerate fully. But that's because I lacked decent dd spells at that point.
Boring battles, but it pretty much eliminates dungeons problems with ranged units.

That's another thing I lacked, Teleport. You's need quite a few Teleports to regenerate 5 Deep Hydras though. It costs mana, and it's sad how the other races can burst through the Succubi with relatively little problems while Dungeon has to maneuveur so much as well as require certain skills (Tactics, Teleport).

A key to fighting succubi mistresses (alone) is limiting number of troops. They hit hard, but their power lies in the ability to hit multiple units. Take that away from them and they hurt a lot less.

Well generally what I meant is the early-game expansion phase where Dungeon suffers significantly compared to the other races (except possibly Academy; I've not used Academy yet). If you run into Succubi Mistresses at this point every race (except possibly Necropolis) is going to lose some creatures, but the critical thing is that Dungeon suffers more than normal. Suppose the battle takes place when everyone has level 4 dwellings (of course this is also oversimplification, but I can't imagine Dungeon going for Deep Hydras instead of Grim Raiders). Now:

Haven would deploy the Imperial Griffins and then use Battle Dive, either constantly or after the initial Battle Dive, attack the Succubi Mistresses at close range.

Necropolis would - again - engage in a Ranged duel and cast Animate Dead.

Inferno will suffer. Rush the Cerberi over, Gate some creatures and fire with the Succubi Mistresses. If the Succubi Mistress stack isn't that large and for some reason they target the Familiars / Overseers, I might refrain from charging and instead wait for the Gated creatures to arrive.

Sylvan would also suffer, but the Master Hunters / Druid Elders would seriously reduce the Succubi Mistress stack's numbers before they get to retaliate.

Dungeon will have problems. Dungeon can't reach the opposing line in the first turn and must therefore take some shots. In the meantime, they don't have the Ranged creatures to kill some Succubi Mistresses with.

Anyway I did not intend to use Succubi Mistresses as the main example; in my original post I referred to Succubi (the unupgraded version) alone.

[Mytical]

Well with succubi it is a bit easier. You don't have to leave out units. As for ranged remember that most range if they melee loose damage (melee penalty). Also furies can get the no retal, meaning that they do damage and the ranged units just stand there looking silly. True they are weak, but don't forget you will either be a) blasting the ranged units with your spells, b) buffing your units, C) debuffing the enemy units, or D) some combo of the above. Your spells can really hurt, while most others spells have less effect (dungeon has superior Spell Power). Once you get empowered spells, ranged units fall faster then a drunk person on ice. I agree that Dungeon units are not the top of the liter, but they are a bit more potent then one would think. It is the empowered spells, spellpower, and tactics that make dungeon stronger. Unupgraded the units deffinately need help, upgraded is night and day. (for instance the assassins poison can hurt the enemy even after they parish)

Now if you have Upgraded raiders here is a strategy that usually works (with upgraded furies). Rush the Upgraded raiders over but don't attack. This keeps the ranged units from being ranged. Then get your furies over there and attack..they do a no retal attack, and the raiders then bite (don't think that is retalible either, but even if so they have already suffered a lot of casualties). If they attack your furies, they get retaled twice too, so it is a good thing. If they attack your Raiders they still get a retal and the furies can attack again at full strength. Sure you take a few losses, but not near as many as you would otherwise. Now this works primarily vs neutral ranged/casters. Throw in assassin's poison attacks and ranged units deffinately fall quite quick. Of course unfortunately this tactic requires upgraded units, and sometimes it is better to concentrate on unupgraded first, and upgrade later. The key is your magic though, not your troops. Use it to your advantage.

[Gaidal Cain]

Actually it's still better to divide the Hydras, simply because two stacks regenerate more points and 3 still more. You just have to make sure each stack has enough creatures not to be killed completely.

That is only true if the AI is stupid enough to target all those stacks of yours instead of concentrating on one- which I doubt it will.

I'd still teleport instead of defend (if possible) because then you get retals and except for some instances reduced damage.

Since you wish to use regeneration, you generally don't want the hydras to retal. Better throw some damage spells that reduces the enemy archer numbers and wait untill you're healed.

What if you don't have Hydras yet? Once again the other races can, with some luck, win without losses (or negligible losses). Haven would deploy only the Imperial Griffins, Battle Dive and then physically take out all that remains of the Marksmen stack(s).

If haven is allowed Battle Griffins, I think it would be fair to give Hydras to Dungeon (both come at the same town level). Also note that the griffins will land and stay still for a turn- which means you need to take care of all rangers in one swoop.

Without level 7s Dungeon has (in my opinion) no killer units at all, unless the hero has Teleporting Assault (wherupon like I said, the Ranged creatures in the opponent's team would have a field day against the Hydras at full damage).

Dungeon has two things one must use to deal damage: Destruction Magic, and creature combos. The first deals excellently with ranged units (if the enemy shooter is slow enough, Lightning bolt might keep them out of the battle altogether). The second means that you need to coordinate your attacks in a much more precise manner than with other towns, but can theoretically be very rewarding- Furies, Minotaurs and Hydras all combine really well with Raiders. Also remember that Hydras wouldn't stand alone- there'd be raiders doing damage that ignores defense, and destruction magic and Furies that stings where it hurts the most.

[Mytical]

Pardon if I sound a bit silly, but how does retal stop regen? You defend, let them hit you (generally for reduced damage since most ranged units/casters suffer melee penalties) and then retal. Since they would hit you anyhow if you were accross the field (for about the same damage unless not effected by range) why not do some damage in return? Since you regen at the start of your turn, I do not see how defending would prevent regening...

[DaemianLucifer]

I really don't think Blood Furies qualify as Killer units. To be a good ranged killer there's only one criterion, damage. To be a good melee killer you not only have to have damage, you must also have the HP to withstand a few hits or the sheer numbers to shrug off some losses, or the ability to regenerate, or the ability to (somehow) take little or no damage in return. Blood Furies satisfy none of those. They cannot take damage; they must hit without taking it - and that is the problem. Finesse can only take you so far. An army built with just finesse-style creatures will fail miserably.

Blood furries pack a massive punch,and have no retal,and have strike and return,plus have a very big range(speed 8),and have massive initiative(16),so yes,they are killers.

What if you don't have Hydras yet? Once again the other races can, with some luck, win without losses (or negligible losses). Haven would deploy only the Imperial Griffins, Battle Dive and then physically take out all that remains of the Marksmen stack(s). Necropolis again doesn't care, just Animate dead all you lose. Inferno can split the Cerberi and rush them over (a crucial difference here with Blood Furies is that Cerberi are rather more durable). Sylvan would hope their Master Hunters get to act before the Marksmen, which would drastically reduce the Marksmen numbers and therefore the damage Sylvan takes.

What if you dont have imp griffins?What if you dont have master hunters?You cannot generalise like that.You cannot relly just on one unit,no matter what faction you play.

There're other problems: what if you don't have enough Hydras? Or if it's a human you're facing, with whom you've had to (for some reason) fight a decisive battle before the level 7s come into play? Without level 7s Dungeon has (in my opinion) no killer units at all, unless the hero has Teleporting Assault (wherupon like I said, the Ranged creatures in the opponent's team would have a field day against the Hydras at full damage).

You have a really wrong view of HV.Top tiers dont cary the battles any more.The focus has been shifted.Not just for dungeon,but for all factions.If you really on blackies to win you battles,you will loose.

It's not so simple. Blood Furies grow at a slow pace, and so while you can deal heavy damage to the Marksmen stack(s), you can't really incapacitate them (I hazard you might, for example, kill half of them in a hit; or about 1 Marksman to 1 Blood Fury).

Yes,furries grow slow,but they also pack a massive punch.It may not look like this,but Ive tested it in numerous battles:Marksmen simply cannot survive against furries.

And then there's the matter where you're assuming you already have Tactics. What if you don't? Even if you prioritize it, you might not be offered it so soon, and the Warlock has to quickly learn Destructive Magic as well. If you don't have Tactics you are going to suffer. It's just not something that happens to the other races.

See,thats where you are making a mistake again:HV is very much skill dependand.You cannot simply throw in your creatures and hope that all will be well.You have to plan your skills way ahead.Thats not only true for dungeon.Try developing your skills blindly with any faction and see what happens.

I didn't have Tactics, so they will get in one action. That was probably a mistake, but the basic problem Dungeon has against Ranged creature is still there. You need Tactics, yet even after you have Tactics you might still lose something.

No,with tactics you never loose.Either tactics,or (a bit more risky) leadership is essential if you are going to relly on creatures.After your spells become powerfull you relly on them.

I can't see Familiars as killers though; I've always used them as Cannon Fodder. Place them in battle, start Gating and then you have 2x the Familiar stack to sacrifice. Archliches don't deal a lot of damage, yes, but then they're Ranged. If they were melee I would have classified them as Supporters.

So what if they are ranged?They still are supporters.Its skel archers that are killers with necro,and the rest just support them.

That's another thing I lacked, Teleport. You's need quite a few Teleports to regenerate 5 Deep Hydras though. It costs mana, and it's sad how the other races can burst through the Succubi with relatively little problems while Dungeon has to maneuveur so much as well as require certain skills (Tactics, Teleport).

Not really.You have to kill just enough units for your hydras to regenarate in peace.With the help of wait,that goes pretty fast.

Well generally what I meant is the early-game expansion phase where Dungeon suffers significantly compared to the other races (except possibly Academy; I've not used Academy yet). If you run into Succubi Mistresses at this point every race (except possibly Necropolis) is going to lose some creatures, but the critical thing is that Dungeon suffers more than normal. Suppose the battle takes place when everyone has level 4 dwellings (of course this is also oversimplification, but I can't imagine Dungeon going for Deep Hydras instead of Grim Raiders). Now:

Haven would deploy the Imperial Griffins and then use Battle Dive, either constantly or after the initial Battle Dive, attack the Succubi Mistresses at close range.

Necropolis would - again - engage in a Ranged duel and cast Animate Dead.

Inferno will suffer. Rush the Cerberi over, Gate some creatures and fire with the Succubi Mistresses. If the Succubi Mistress stack isn't that large and for some reason they target the Familiars / Overseers, I might refrain from charging and instead wait for the Gated creatures to arrive.

Sylvan would also suffer, but the Master Hunters / Druid Elders would seriously reduce the Succubi Mistress stack's numbers before they get to retaliate.

Dungeon will have problems. Dungeon can't reach the opposing line in the first turn and must therefore take some shots. In the meantime, they don't have the Ranged creatures to kill some Succubi Mistresses with.

Anyway I did not intend to use Succubi Mistresses as the main example; in my original post I referred to Succubi (the unupgraded version) alone.

Dungeon can reach them in one turn and take no casualties whatsoever.Like I said,there were plenty of battles like that you described,and I lost not a single unit.And rellying on a ranged units to fight succubi is a big no-no.

Pardon if I sound a bit silly, but how does retal stop regen? You defend, let them hit you (generally for reduced damage since most ranged units/casters suffer melee penalties) and then retal. Since they would hit you anyhow if you were accross the field (for about the same damage unless not effected by range) why not do some damage in return? Since you regen at the start of your turn, I do not see how defending would prevent regening...

You regen even if you defend.If you cast haste,you regen even faster.

[Mytical]

Again it does come down to taste. I've had some success with Summons/Destructive, Light/Destructive, and Light/Summons with Dungeon (odd combos I know). You have to know your enemy, and know they have access to those type spells (except destructive of course) but it can be highly effective. Imagine those deep hydras with ressurrect, or Arcane Armor, or Deflect Missile, ect. They are very strong on their own, but buffed or with other spells on them they can be really dangerous. Also with summons now, firewall is a huge help (with the dungeons spellpower it can do some great damage).

So play what you like Banedon, DL will argue to the moon turns plaid (hehe).

[DaemianLucifer]

I had dark/destructive for dungeon.Very effective.Especially with power of speed.

[Jolly Joker]

Actually it's still better to divide the Hydras, simply because two stacks regenerate more points and 3 still more. You just have to make sure each stack has enough creatures not to be killed completely.

That is only true if the AI is stupid enough to target all those stacks of yours instead of concentrating on one- which I doubt it will.

First thing is you have to give the opposition a chance to err. If you keep your Hydras in one stack there is no margin for an error.
Second thing is, the AI WILL target different stacks, because the threat priorities change when it decimates one stack.

[DaemianLucifer]

Actually it wont.It will target a near death hydra over a healthy one.It priorities killing a unit over hurting another one.It may be stupid at times,but not that stupid.

[Mirez]

I'm not sure bout that

[Banedon]

If haven is allowed Battle Griffins, I think it would be fair to give Hydras to Dungeon (both come at the same town level). Also note that the griffins will land and stay still for a turn- which means you need to take care of all rangers in one swoop.

Or to move twice in a row before the remaining archers move. It's possible since Imperial Griffins have high intiative as well. As for the Hydras, well it's possible, but you would need to wait some time before they actually become of use (bringing 3 Hydras against a powerful Ranged guardian stack is suicide). That said, Haven is relatively bad at taking out Ranged stacks as well.

Dungeon has two things one must use to deal damage: Destruction Magic, and creature combos. The first deals excellently with ranged units (if the enemy shooter is slow enough, Lightning bolt might keep them out of the battle altogether). The second means that you need to coordinate your attacks in a much more precise manner than with other towns, but can theoretically be very rewarding- Furies, Minotaurs and Hydras all combine really well with Raiders. Also remember that Hydras wouldn't stand alone- there'd be raiders doing damage that ignores defense, and destruction magic and Furies that stings where it hurts the most.

The Hydras take an infinity to get over, and so do the Minotaurs. In the meantime, the Blood Furies would be dying...and, if there's more than one Ranged creature stack, Lightning Bolt isn't going to keep it paralyzed forever.

Like Haven, Dungeon has problems against Ranged creature stacks early. Every race does, but Dungeon I think has it worst of all. If you deploy Blood Furies they'll get shot the moment one of the Ranged stacks move; if you don't deploy them you'll have to count on the Grim Raiders to kill all the Ranged stacks (dangerous if there's more than one such that the second Ranged stack gets in shots at full damage). If you don't do that you can deploy the Hydras and rely on the hero. The first two will result in losses while the third takes some time to get going.

Blood furries pack a massive punch,and have no retal,and have strike and return,plus have a very big range(speed 8),and have massive initiative(16),so yes,they are killers.

Perhaps you don't understand what I mean by 'killer'. A killer unit is one that can deal damage, and a lot of it. A killer unit is by its very nature valuable - I can tolerate losing 10 Zombies much better than losing 1 Skeleton Archer. If a melee killer cannot be preserved easily, I would instead call it 'finesse'.

Now Blood Furies satisfy the first requirement, but they do not satisfy the next. Blood Furies deal damage, but they also die. That wouldn't be so bad if they reproduced at high pace, but that's not the case, and you must agree that using Blood Furies involve a considerable amount of maneuveuring. If you look at my original list there aren't any killer melee units until the level 6s and 7s except the Cerberi - which work because they Gate, deal fine damage, hit without retaliation, have more HP and are generally more dispensable than Blood Furies (though I'd still try hard not to lose any in the first place).

Perhaps an analogy might help? A melee killer is a Fighter / Barbarian / Paladin. A finesse unit is more of a Monk / Duelist / Rogue. The finesse unit relies on not getting hit in the first place to survive; the killer by brute hit points.

What if you dont have imp griffins?What if you dont have master hunters?You cannot generalise like that.You cannot relly just on one unit,no matter what faction you play.

I argue that yes, you can rely on just one unit. The Sylvan core unit is the Master Hunter, and the Sylvan player will pour resources to getting the Hunter dwelling ASAP. A Sylvan army with Master Hunters is completely different from one without it. Would you say Hydras are the key unit for Dungeon? Obviously not - while Hydras give you extra tactics, they hardly provide Dungeon with any firepower whatsoever without spells to back them up.

Again, an example. If you get into a decisive, end-of-the-game battle with a Sylvan army, you would automatically place the Master Hunters high on the priority list. You wouldn't, however, do the same for Hydras. Why not? Because, unteleported, there's no need to attack them.

You have a really wrong view of HV.Top tiers dont cary the battles any more.The focus has been shifted.Not just for dungeon,but for all factions.If you really on blackies to win you battles,you will loose.

Whatever gave you that impression? But there is a crucial point here: minus the Black Dragons, Dungeon has no melee unit capable of dealing mass damage without spells to help it. Let me exaggerate the problem. Suppose I gave you a town with:

Sprites
Blood Furies
Spectres
Grim Raiders
Nightmares
Shadow Matriaches
Archangels

Would you feel comfortable with the town? Probably not. All 7 units are good units, but the town sorely lacks an out-and-out damage dealer. Without the Black Dragons, Dungeon loses a great deal of offensive power.

See,thats where you are making a mistake again:HV is very much skill dependand.You cannot simply throw in your creatures and hope that all will be well.You have to plan your skills way ahead.Thats not only true for dungeon.Try developing your skills blindly with any faction and see what happens.

Do you mean that the first skill you go for is Tactics? Honestly?

No,with tactics you never loose.Either tactics,or (a bit more risky) leadership is essential if you are going to relly on creatures.After your spells become powerfull you relly on them.

I never suggested you are going to lose to the Marksmen - after all, if there's a good chance you'll lose your main hero to a neutral stack, you shouldn't have attacked it in the first place. What I meant is that you are going to lose units. A decent Dungeon army will beat a Horde of Marksmen, but it cannot do so without losing anything essential (in other words, the Blood Furies), at least until it has sufficiently many Hydras to survive the Marksmen attacks.

Not really.You have to kill just enough units for your hydras to regenarate in peace.With the help of wait,that goes pretty fast.

Yes, and then the Succubi run out of shots and move over. Hydras move sufficiently slowly that they cannot avoid the Succubi the way Blood Furies can, and all the Succubi will get retaliated to death. That's why I lost 5 Hydras.

Dungeon can reach them in one turn and take no casualties whatsoever.Like I said,there were plenty of battles like that you described,and I lost not a single unit.And rellying on a ranged units to fight succubi is a big no-no.

You forget: you must have Tactics. Unless my memory is failing me, you can't reach the bacak line without it. And, even with Tactics, you might not lose no creatures; any Ranged guardian that splits into two and isn't completely destroyed by your first Blood Fury attack will physically attack the Blood Fury, which will cause some deaths.

On, and it is perfectly feasible to use Ranged units against Succubi. Sylvan, Inferno and Necropolis can all do that. The first two by blocking the Succubi and then only firing (both can achieve that on the first turn) while Necropolis just animates those that he loses.

[wimfrits]

Actually it's still better to divide the Hydras, simply because two stacks regenerate more points and 3 still more.

Not if you use the wait tactic.
A stack of 3x hydras regenerates more HP than 1 stack of x hydras. Since the ranged units will usually target only 1 of the 3 stacks, the other 2 stacks of hydras become irrelevant to the comparison.

I can't see Familiars as killers though; I've always used them as Cannon Fodder. Place them in battle, start Gating and then you have 2x the Familiar stack to sacrifice.

Familiars are fast and deal a big punch. If you manage to preserve them they will remain the strongest stack (in terms of damage) of your army.

That's another thing I lacked, Teleport. You's need quite a few Teleports to regenerate 5 Deep Hydras though. It costs mana, and it's sad how the other races can burst through the Succubi with relatively little problems while Dungeon has to maneuveur so much as well as require certain skills (Tactics, Teleport).

Teleport only because I lacked decent dd spells. Note: I used teleport in the end-phase of combat where the succubi had used up their shots and were coming to hit me in melee.

Later, any ranged army became cake. Whither them down to a low number with spells or normal attack if spells are an overkill. Leave a low number of ranged enemies use up their shots wile the hydras regenerate more than they absorb.
I think that with hydras, Dungeon has the best general tactic against ranged units.

[Banedon]

Familiars are fast and deal a big punch. If you manage to preserve them they will remain the strongest stack (in terms of damage) of your army.

Come to think of it, they do deal quite some damage for their numbers...but they aren't that fast (rather in the middle-ground for not fast and not slow) and hence are relatively worthless as a damaging unit. After all, Hydras deal good damage but without Teleport they're never going to get anywhere.

Later, any ranged army became cake. Whither them down to a low number with spells or normal attack if spells are an overkill. Leave a low number of ranged enemies use up their shots wile the hydras regenerate more than they absorb.
I think that with hydras, Dungeon has the best general tactic against ranged units.

Hydras don't regenerate that fast unfortunately. Once Ranged stacks grow in numbers you'll lose more than you gain unless you have some spells (like Deflect Missiles or Teleport) to cast. In the meantime, you have to expend mana to kill as well.

I'm of opinion that Necropolis has the best anti-Ranged units tactics, with Sylvan a close second. Necropolis would lose a bit of mana with Animate Dead, but given that Skeleton Archers are killers you might not need to cast Animate Dead more than twice. Sylvan can just charge the Emerald Dragons (or Silver Unicorns, depends) over and destroy the stacks with Ranged fire - Sylvan after all has tremendous Ranged damage.

Anyway, just wondering: if Dungeon is so effective against Ranged units, what exactly is it that makes you uncomfortable with Dungeon?

[DaemianLucifer]

I'm not sure bout that

I am.I lost a stack of hydras because of this a few times.The AI simply wouldnt attack something other then the weakend hydra that was in back.

Or to move twice in a row before the remaining archers move. It's possible since Imperial Griffins have high intiative as well. As for the Hydras, well it's possible, but you would need to wait some time before they actually become of use (bringing 3 Hydras against a powerful Ranged guardian stack is suicide). That said, Haven is relatively bad at taking out Ranged stacks as well.

The griffins acting after the landing before they go up again happens just as often as furries acting twice before the enemy stack,so you cannot relly on that.

The Hydras take an infinity to get over, and so do the Minotaurs. In the meantime, the Blood Furies would be dying...and, if there's more than one Ranged creature stack, Lightning Bolt isn't going to keep it paralyzed forever.

Wait,why are you furries going to die before hydras reach the enemy?If its casters,you wont attack them with hydras,or will attack them with nothing but hydras,depending on the situation.If its melee units,hydras and minos will prevent them from reaching your furries,which is what they are for.

As for splitted units,if split in two,you freeze/stun one while you pummel the others with creatures(works like a charm).If split in three,you freeze the two that are closer,or anihilate them with empowered meteor.

Like Haven, Dungeon has problems against Ranged creature stacks early. Every race does, but Dungeon I think has it worst of all. If you deploy Blood Furies they'll get shot the moment one of the Ranged stacks move; if you don't deploy them you'll have to count on the Grim Raiders to kill all the Ranged stacks (dangerous if there's more than one such that the second Ranged stack gets in shots at full damage). If you don't do that you can deploy the Hydras and rely on the hero. The first two will result in losses while the third takes some time to get going.

So what if it takes some time?That doesnt mean its not valid.I remember killing 25 treants with a single pixie.Sure,takes a lot of time,but it does the job.

Now Blood Furies satisfy the first requirement, but they do not satisfy the next. Blood Furies deal damage, but they also die. That wouldn't be so bad if they reproduced at high pace, but that's not the case, and you must agree that using Blood Furies involve a considerable amount of maneuveuring. If you look at my original list there aren't any killer melee units until the level 6s and 7s except the Cerberi - which work because they Gate, deal fine damage, hit without retaliation, have more HP and are generally more dispensable than Blood Furies (though I'd still try hard not to lose any in the first place).

Cerberi die just as fast as furries.Even faster because they dont retreat to original position,thus face melee attacks as well as ranged attacks.So calling them killers is wrong by your logic.And cerberi have fewer HP than furries,and fewer defense.

I argue that yes, you can rely on just one unit. The Sylvan core unit is the Master Hunter, and the Sylvan player will pour resources to getting the Hunter dwelling ASAP. A Sylvan army with Master Hunters is completely different from one without it. Would you say Hydras are the key unit for Dungeon? Obviously not - while Hydras give you extra tactics, they hardly provide Dungeon with any firepower whatsoever without spells to back them up.

No,core units of sylvan are hunters and druids.Having only hunters makes you vulnerable to attacks of multiple stacks.Core of the dungeon is raider furry combo.And hydras do an essential role in quite a few of the fights where deploying only them is crucial.And saying they provide no firepower without spells means nothing,because you cannot compare just raw units,but units backed by everything the hero offers.

Again, an example. If you get into a decisive, end-of-the-game battle with a Sylvan army, you would automatically place the Master Hunters high on the priority list. You wouldn't, however, do the same for Hydras. Why not? Because, unteleported, there's no need to attack them.

Really?No need to attack them.Well then,at least I know how to beat you easilly now

Whatever gave you that impression?

Price,low initiative,dont cover the whole BF.Sure,blackies are mighty when you get them,but by that time you will have enough furries and raiders to slaughter anything in the first turn.Yes,archangels are nice,but by the time you get them,your champions will rule the field with marksmen raining death from the back.

But there is a crucial point here: minus the Black Dragons, Dungeon has no melee unit capable of dealing mass damage without spells to help it.

Again,its useless to say without spells(even though furries pack quite a punch even without spells)because we dont compare just bare units,but units backed up by everything you have.

Without the Black Dragons, Dungeon loses a great deal of offensive power.

Only in the late game,and on medium and larger maps.

Do you mean that the first skill you go for is Tactics? Honestly?

Yes.It is high in my priority list.Logistics,destruction and attack are sharing the first place when playing warlock.

I never suggested you are going to lose to the Marksmen - after all, if there's a good chance you'll lose your main hero to a neutral stack, you shouldn't have attacked it in the first place. What I meant is that you are going to lose units. A decent Dungeon army will beat a Horde of Marksmen, but it cannot do so without losing anything essential (in other words, the Blood Furies), at least until it has sufficiently many Hydras to survive the Marksmen attacks.

Sufficiently enough hydras to beat a horde of marksmen with a warlock is starting number+1 weeks population.First thing you do is blast them with a spell(lightning or ice bolt,whichever you have),then defend with hydras,then blast away while hydras regenerate.You may end up loosing one if you are unlucky.

Yes, and then the Succubi run out of shots and move over. Hydras move sufficiently slowly that they cannot avoid the Succubi the way Blood Furies can, and all the Succubi will get retaliated to death. That's why I lost 5 Hydras.

Again,deploying all here makes the sucubi die before they act when you have tactics.If you dont,then you should use haste on hydras,then regenarate them all while the succubi near you(they are quite slow).

You forget: you must have Tactics. Unless my memory is failing me, you can't reach the bacak line without it. And, even with Tactics, you might not lose no creatures; any Ranged guardian that splits into two and isn't completely destroyed by your first Blood Fury attack will physically attack the Blood Fury, which will cause some deaths.

True,you do need tactics.And if you have it,no matter how they are split,you can beat them without losses.If you cant beat them without losses,no other army of the same power can beat them without losses as well(except necro).

On, and it is perfectly feasible to use Ranged units against Succubi. Sylvan, Inferno and Necropolis can all do that. The first two by blocking the Succubi and then only firing (both can achieve that on the first turn) while Necropolis just animates those that he loses.

No,you cannot block them in your first turn with a ranger unless you have tactics.So the ranger faces the same problem warlock does.

[Jolly Joker]

I don't understand the fuss here.
It's pretty obvious that a lot of people have absolutely no problems to get along with the Dungeon. Personally I think that Dungeon is a lot of fun to play and offers a lot of options how to play. Does someone really want to argue, that is not the case? That Dungeon can't handle whatever it is what the others can handle better?

[Mytical]

Not everybody has to like every faction people. Some do actually prefer one over the rest, and dislike one over the rest. It's just a matter of taste and playstyle

[Jolly Joker]

It's no question of liking here. It's a question of ability that is raised. Dungeon cannot do this and the units lack that....
That has nothing to do with liking.

[DaemianLucifer]

Its nothing new for Banedon to argue in such theoretical things.Im just wondering if...no,when csarmi will join in

[Banedon]

The griffins acting after the landing before they go up again happens just as often as furries acting twice before the enemy stack,so you cannot relly on that.

Which is quite often; you stressed that the Blood Furies have 16 initiative.

Wait,why are you furries going to die before hydras reach the enemy?If its casters,you wont attack them with hydras,or will attack them with nothing but hydras,depending on the situation.If its melee units,hydras and minos will prevent them from reaching your furries,which is what they are for.

I did not and have never said that your Blood Furies all die before they reach the enemy. I did not and have never said and will never say that all your Blood Furies are going to die in a battle against neutrals. The point is some of them will die. You cannot reasonably expect battle after battle after battle with no Blood Furies dying, because given how fragile they are and how high they are on the AI's priority list they will get targetted, and once they do they start dying.

So what if it takes some time?That doesnt mean its not valid.I remember killing 25 treants with a single pixie.Sure,takes a lot of time,but it does the job.

I did not mean takes time to accomplish; I would certainly kill those 25 Treants with the Pixie if I had to. What I meant is that it takes time to get going. Would you attack 30 Priests with 3 Hydras? Think about it. You'd be able to Defend and hit them with your hero and let the Hydras Regenerate, but all the Hydras would die before you kill sufficiently many Priests.

Cerberi die just as fast as furries.Even faster because they dont retreat to original position,thus face melee attacks as well as ranged attacks.So calling them killers is wrong by your logic.And cerberi have fewer HP than furries,and fewer defense.

Not at all. Cerberi have less HP and less defense than Blood Furies, but they reproduce faster and there are Gated targets about to tempt the neutrals and you don't have to rush the Cerberi in until your Gated creatures arrive. The Cerberi might be even more fragile than Blood Furies, but they live longer. Experience dictates this.

No,core units of sylvan are hunters and druids.Having only hunters makes you vulnerable to attacks of multiple stacks.Core of the dungeon is raider furry combo.And hydras do an essential role in quite a few of the fights where deploying only them is crucial.And saying they provide no firepower without spells means nothing,because you cannot compare just raw units,but units backed by everything the hero offers.

Let us ignore Heroes 5 and turn to Heroes 3 for the moment. What is the core unit for Castle in Heroes 3? I'll tell you it's Marksmen. Why Marksmen? Because they form the base of all Castle damage-dealing early-game. But can an army have nothing but Marksmen? Of course not. But all the other units are less important.

Back to Heroes 5. Of course having only Hunters make you vulnerable, but you don't have only Hunters. Sylvan relies on only one unit for most of the game, as does Necropolis and to a lesser extent, Haven (Marksmen) and Inferno (Cerberi). Dungeon needs more than one unit.

As for spells, I'll point out that casting spells cost mana. You cannot afford to cast empowered Meteor Showers in every neutral battle.

Really?No need to attack them.Well then,at least I know how to beat you easilly now

Note I used the word 'unteleported'. If you Teleport them I am going to kill them. If you don't I'll ignore them.

Price,low initiative,dont cover the whole BF.Sure,blackies are mighty when you get them,but by that time you will have enough furries and raiders to slaughter anything in the first turn.Yes,archangels are nice,but by the time you get them,your champions will rule the field with marksmen raining death from the back.

You completely mistook what I meant.

Again,its useless to say without spells(even though furries pack quite a punch even without spells)because we dont compare just bare units,but units backed up by everything you have.

So you're suggesting that Dungeon starts with their level 7 dwelling built? Such that Dungeon can deploy Black Dragons starting from day 1, because it's only fair to compare races with units backed up by everything it has?

Only in the late game,and on medium and larger maps.

You've gone out of the context. Come late-game everyone has level 7s. What I mean is that before late-game, when no one has level 7 dwellings yet (unless someone has scrambled up the TeCH tree like a maniac). Compared to all other races Dungeon has relatively little offensive might without the hero (who can be neutralized by Counterspell, by Mass Haste, by Magical Immunity and so on).

Yes.It is high in my priority list.Logistics,destruction and attack are sharing the first place when playing warlock.

You contradict yourself. Logistics, Destruction and Attack but no Tactics. You therefore can't expect to have your Grim Raiders and Blood Furies hit the Ranged neutrals right from the start.

I bet you'll say that Tactics is under Attack. True. But what you said is you prioritize those three skills and not their sub-skills, and even if you do prioritize Tactics as a sub-skill you would still need to be level 4 or so.

Again,deploying all here makes the sucubi die before they act when you have tactics.If you dont,then you should use haste on hydras,then regenarate them all while the succubi near you(they are quite slow).

How much does Haste add to the Hydra's initiative? After all, you're not prioritizing Light Magic. Incidentally, Succubi initiative = 10; Hydra initiative = 7.

True,you do need tactics.And if you have it,no matter how they are split,you can beat them without losses.If you cant beat them without losses,no other army of the same power can beat them without losses as well(except necro).

The problem isn't losing creatures; it's what creatures you're losing. Like I said, I'm hardly worried if I lose 10 Zombies because that's what they're for anyway: cannon fodder. If you're losing Blood Furies you're losing killer units. There's a difference.

No,you cannot block them in your first turn with a ranger unless you have tactics.So the ranger faces the same problem warlock does.

I was sure Silver Unicorns can reach the enemy line in the first turn, but now that you mention it, I might have had Tactics then. However: the Ranger has a big weapon the Warlock does not, and that is Ranged creatures. No race can take on Sylvan in a purely Ranged duel at this point of the game (before you misunderstand, I stress: the expansion phase). On the other hand, every race can take on Dungeon in a purely Ranged duel now.

I believe Dungeon is slightly underpowered. Some people clearly don't. I'll put the difference down to style. I prefer blitzkrieg with fast movements, powerful ranged creatures and fast-moving walkers. I also prefer defensive magics such that I take next to no casualties per battle. Taken together, this means Dungeon is simply not among my favoured towns. So...

It's no question of liking here. It's a question of ability that is raised. Dungeon cannot do this and the units lack that....
That has nothing to do with liking.

Dungeon cannot blitz the map as easily as Sylvan can.
Dungeon cannot avoid casualties the way Necropolis can.
Dungeon is severely hindered by Counterspell.
Dungeon lacks a unit to absorb retaliation with.
Dungeon cannot...

Dungeon's just like every other race: Dungeon has its weaknesses and strengths. These are Dungeon's weaknesses, which incidentally coincide with those things I am most loath to give up.

[Jolly Joker]

Dungeon cannot blitz the map as easily as Sylvan can.
Dungeon cannot avoid casualties the way Necropolis can.
Dungeon is severely hindered by Counterspell.
Dungeon lacks a unit to absorb retaliation with.
Dungeon cannot...

Wrong. If you still haven't gotten it now, you may never get it.