I am (finally) getting started with Heroes V

[DaemianLucifer]

Haven - A bit dull with no special abilities, but definitely a solid race. Haven gets access to fine shooters at level 2 and can charge the battlefield with Archangels and Champions. Imperial Griffins can intimidate your opponent and play mind games while Inquistors can cast blesses on the Champions. All good, but the playstyle is slightly boring.

What about training?A pretty nifty special.

Necropolis - Oddly enough, my favourite race for the moment. The constant raising of Skeleton Archers is crazy, and Raise Dead allows Necropolis to constantly move without losing creatures. Problem as always is the weaker power late-game, but with improved growth for the Spectral Dragons as well as the ability to turn all captured creatures into undead (why can't I turn Zombies and Ghosts into Skeletons?) it might compensate.

Zombies I can get turning into skelies,but how would you do it with boneless ghosts?

Dungeon - A bit underpowered in my opinion. The Assassins are good units, the Blood Furies deal good damage, but Dungeon lacks a true killing weapon aside from the hero until late in the game. And that is quite late indeed; Minotaur Guards are relatively slow, Deep Hydras move slowly as well while Dark Raiders have neither the no retaliation ability nor the damage to kill a stack outright. Until Dungeon reaches Shadow Matriaches Dungeon has no effective Ranged units, and even after Dungeon gets them the Shadow Matriaches might have to cast spells. I don't like Dungeon, though one of my brothers clearly does.

If those are your thoughts,you need much practice with dungeon.They are a race that packs a massive punch.The furries combined with raiders are a slaughter,and TA makes your hydras an incredible killing machine.

Given, of course, you are staying in the corner spamming Raise Dead. Without other targets either the Angels or the Champions or the Squires or the Archers will take out the Amno Cart.

Archers will never target the cart,but always your skelies,and so will the hero,unless there is a way to get a unit and the cart at the same time.If you put archers and a meat shield on the left,most units will come chasing them,thus wont touch the cart(they may attack the balista though).

[Banedon]

What about training?A pretty nifty special.

Nifty indeed, if extremely heavy on gold cost. But then it still doesn't add anything to the playstyle of the town. That's why I find Haven dull.

If those are your thoughts,you need much practice with dungeon.They are a race that packs a massive punch.The furries combined with raiders are a slaughter,and TA makes your hydras an incredible killing machine.

Blood Furies and Raiders I can understand. But how do you intend to take on Ranged creatures early? Or fast walkers? You have no Ranged creatures with which to seriously reduce their numbers before committing your Raiders to the battle. And in the meantime, the Blood Furies for some reason keep attracting the AI, and they die at hyper speed.

Dungeon lacks good Ranged creatures, and that's something I can't cope with unless I have fast, strong creatures to compensate. Until you get to the Black Dragons though Dungeon has nothing - the Raiders are fast, but they're not strong (enough); the Blood Furies are fast as well, but they're extremely fragile. Dungeon can't take on Ranged guardians with negligible losses the way Inferno can (Gate the Cerberi / Hell Hounds over, hope they aim your Imps). I remember getting Raelag with 6 Shadow Matriaches, 7 Deep Hydras, 20+ Grim Raiders, 32 Blood Furies and 70+ Assassins to fight 40+ Succubi. Deploying them all always resulted in unacceptable casualties (the Blood Furies die horrible deaths). Not deploying the Blood Furies resulted in the Shadow Matriaches dying instead (again unacceptable). In the end I just put the Deep Hydras there and shot them all down with Raelag - a rather sad way of winning if you ask me.

By TA you mean Teleporting Assault? Well that's possible, but since Heroes 5 brought into play instant Tactics, you're likely to find your opponent's Ranged creatures barricaded in. Yes, they risk themselves against AoE spells like Fireball and Black Dragons, but in return they guarantee the safety of their shooters. After all, would you fly your Black Dragons over such that your opponent's stack of 100 Master Hunters gets to shoot at full damage? But I digress; if you do manage to keep to the Sylvan player's speed of development this is indeed something you might try.

As I said, I don't like Dungeon. They just lack an effective killing unit early. With the exception of Academy which I've not yet played, I do think every race expands faster than Dungeon.

Archers will never target the cart,but always your skelies,and so will the hero,unless there is a way to get a unit and the cart at the same time.If you put archers and a meat shield on the left,most units will come chasing them,thus wont touch the cart(they may attack the balista though).

Oh? With the Angels held up by the Spectres and nothing to hit, will the Champions not hit the Cart?

[DaemianLucifer]

Blood Furies and Raiders I can understand. But how do you intend to take on Ranged creatures early? Or fast walkers?

Tactics+spells.And you dont have to deploy all units.Deep hydras can take whole neutral armies without loses.

By TA you mean Teleporting Assault? Well that's possible, but since Heroes 5 brought into play instant Tactics, you're likely to find your opponent's Ranged creatures barricaded in. Yes, they risk themselves against AoE spells like Fireball and Black Dragons, but in return they guarantee the safety of their shooters. After all, would you fly your Black Dragons over such that your opponent's stack of 100 Master Hunters gets to shoot at full damage? But I digress; if you do manage to keep to the Sylvan player's speed of development this is indeed something you might try.

Thats the beauty of dungeon:If your enemy baricades himself he is facing an empowered meteor shower or fireball,and that one hurts like hell.If he doesnt,then here come the hydras.

Oh? With the Angels held up by the Spectres and nothing to hit, will the Champions not hit the Cart?

Highly unlikely because both angels and champions will concentrate on the specters.They will attack the cart only if they cannot reach the specters but can the cart,and that happens only if they go right for some reason(meaning you had a unit there).

[Jolly Joker]

Well, with Heroes V I see a lot of people still only taking into account the creatures base figures and not the stuff the hero is giving them additionally. You have to put a bit of work into your hero to support waht your units start with.
In case of Dungeon you have two very fast units, Blood Furies and Grim Raiders. Both have speed 8. Furthermore there are two possible ways to add to the range of them. You have to get either Tactics as soon as possible (for which you need the Offense skill) or Aura od Swiftness, which is a bit more difficult to get because you need Leadership and Recruitment for that (getting both Tactics and Aura of Swiftness is not a bad idea because it will make Retribution rather good as well).
This will solve the problems. "Ranged" isn't always all the rage.

[Banedon]

Tactics+spells.And you dont have to deploy all units.Deep hydras can take whole neutral armies without loses.

Really? How, if they're getting pounded on by the entire opposing force? There's bound to be wear-and-tear on the Deep Hydras. The Warlock leading them does not have an infinite amount of spell points, either.

Thats the beauty of dungeon:If your enemy baricades himself he is facing an empowered meteor shower or fireball,and that one hurts like hell.If he doesnt,then here come the hydras.

It can be done to minimize the damage from the Meteor Shower (you can't stop the Warlock from casting anyway). After all, the Hydras (and Black Dragons, and Grim Raiders - in other words, all three of Dungeon's strong offensive units) are large creatures. You only have to block one spot to stop the Hydras and Grim Raiders (though not the Black Dragons - but then if they come over they're within full shot range from all your Ranged creatures).

Well, with Heroes V I see a lot of people still only taking into account the creatures base figures and not the stuff the hero is giving them additionally. You have to put a bit of work into your hero to support waht your units start with.
In case of Dungeon you have two very fast units, Blood Furies and Grim Raiders. Both have speed 8. Furthermore there are two possible ways to add to the range of them. You have to get either Tactics as soon as possible (for which you need the Offense skill) or Aura od Swiftness, which is a bit more difficult to get because you need Leadership and Recruitment for that (getting both Tactics and Aura of Swiftness is not a bad idea because it will make Retribution rather good as well).
This will solve the problems. "Ranged" isn't always all the rage.

That helps, but does not solve the problem completely. You do not know where your opponent's Ranged creatures are going to be before you start the battle, and there's a chance your Blood Furies and Grim Raiders can't hit them (or there're so many stacks you can't hit them all). Then there's the problem that the Blood Furies are extremely fragile. If you charge over and block the Ranged fire you need necessarily have to leave the Blood Furies there as well. That'd mean that any other Ranged, unblocked stack would wreck utter havoc on the Blood Furies (I don't know, but they do seem to be targetted at every opportunity), and even if there're no other Ranged, unblocked stack around melee hits from the Ranged creature would still hurt badly. You could split the Grim Raiders, but until you have a sizable amount of them it's no good - the Grim Raiders would get killed alone on the other side of the battlefield. And by the time you have a sizeable stack of them your opponents would be in the full-fledged expansion phase.

Dungeon just doesn't have an outstanding killer unit, and the Warlock does not have infinite mana either. It could be just me, but Dungeon is definitely not my style.

[Jolly Joker]

No, that's not right. You know where the opposing stacks are (there will be 3 at most at specific places). You can split the Furies.
There high init and brutal damage output makes sure you can cope with the low level shooters very well. Note that with the exception of Magic shooters (mages included) it doesn't matter whether you block the shooters or you keept at them (they will do half damage in both cases) while it is definitely wrong to keep close with Assassins.
For the higher level shooters like Priests, Matriarchs and Liches you best leave the furies out (if you want to deal with them early.

[DaemianLucifer]

Really? How, if they're getting pounded on by the entire opposing force? There's bound to be wear-and-tear on the Deep Hydras. The Warlock leading them does not have an infinite amount of spell points, either.

Neutrals simply cannot harm hydras enough for it not to regenerate completelly(well,casters can,but you use different tactics on them).

It can be done to minimize the damage from the Meteor Shower (you can't stop the Warlock from casting anyway). After all, the Hydras (and Black Dragons, and Grim Raiders - in other words, all three of Dungeon's strong offensive units) are large creatures. You only have to block one spot to stop the Hydras and Grim Raiders (though not the Black Dragons - but then if they come over they're within full shot range from all your Ranged creatures).

Heres the thing:if you only partially wall your ranged units,furries will come in and kill them.If you wall them in completelly,spells will kill them.If you dont wall them in,hydras will kill them.If you play sylvan,its even worse because you have two ranged units to worry about.So,you cannot play defensive against dungeon,you must play offensive.And the problem here is that dungeon is maybe the most offensive faction.

That helps, but does not solve the problem completely. You do not know where your opponent's Ranged creatures are going to be before you start the battle, and there's a chance your Blood Furies and Grim Raiders can't hit them (or there're so many stacks you can't hit them all). Then there's the problem that the Blood Furies are extremely fragile. If you charge over and block the Ranged fire you need necessarily have to leave the Blood Furies there as well. That'd mean that any other Ranged, unblocked stack would wreck utter havoc on the Blood Furies (I don't know, but they do seem to be targetted at every opportunity), and even if there're no other Ranged, unblocked stack around melee hits from the Ranged creature would still hurt badly. You could split the Grim Raiders, but until you have a sizable amount of them it's no good - the Grim Raiders would get killed alone on the other side of the battlefield. And by the time you have a sizeable stack of them your opponents would be in the full-fledged expansion phase.

If you place your units correctly,no matter how the AI puts its units youll reach them(remember that it doesnt split its units in all possible manners).Fighting a human is a different story.

Furthermore,you almost never use furries to block a ranged unit.Thats what raiders are for.

Dungeon just doesn't have an outstanding killer unit, and the Warlock does not have infinite mana either. It could be just me, but Dungeon is definitely not my style.

Yup,its just you,because dungeon has a specific style

[Banedon]

No, that's not right. You know where the opposing stacks are (there will be 3 at most at specific places). You can split the Furies.
There high init and brutal damage output makes sure you can cope with the low level shooters very well. Note that with the exception of Magic shooters (mages included) it doesn't matter whether you block the shooters or you keept at them (they will do half damage in both cases) while it is definitely wrong to keep close with Assassins.
For the higher level shooters like Priests, Matriarchs and Liches you best leave the furies out (if you want to deal with them early.

Suppose you get into a fight with Hordes of Marksmen. What are you going to do, charge the Blood Furies over? The Marksmen stack(s) will hit the Blood Furies in melee, and given their numbers you're forced to suffer casualties. If you don't charge the Blood Furies over they'll get shot to death while the Assassins look on helplessly. Even if you split the Blood Furies you're going to lose some Blood Furies, and given that Blood Furies are your killer creatures early, losing them is very bad.

Neutrals simply cannot harm hydras enough for it not to regenerate completelly(well,casters can,but you use different tactics on them).

You overly simplified things. My level 18 Raelag had 7 Deep Hydras and he fought 40+ Succubi. I lost 5 Deep Hydras. It'd be a good trade if I took something important in return (say, a Gold Mine), but Dungeon cannot keep this up. The next mine, if I try something similar and lose all the Deep Hydras, I'll have essentially incapacitated myself.

So what's the deal? The other races can take out the same 40+ Succubi with negligible losses. When I fought that battle I had up to level 6 units. Haven would just split the Champions and block both Ranged stacks (no losses since Champions have such high HP). Sylvan would rush the Silver Unicorns over, preferably after the Master Hunters / Elder Druids have fired, blocking the Succubi while the Master Hunters and Elder Druids destroy them. Necropolis wouldn't care - engage the Succubi in a ranged battle and Animate all that you lose. Inferno would use the Nightmares as blockers instead, with Cerberi helping out (might lose Nightmares, but Nightmares aren't that important). Dungeon is the only race that must lose some of the key creatures. Dungeon might rush the Grim Raiders the same way Sylvan rushes the Silver Unicorns, but without the Ranged cover Sylvan has, the odds are Dungeon would lose at least one Grim Raider (= not good).

Heres the thing:if you only partially wall your ranged units,furries will come in and kill them.If you wall them in completelly,spells will kill them.If you dont wall them in,hydras will kill them.If you play sylvan,its even worse because you have two ranged units to worry about.So,you cannot play defensive against dungeon,you must play offensive.And the problem here is that dungeon is maybe the most offensive faction.

Blood Furies killing the Ranged units? Surely not; once attacked by any stack with an intention to kill the Blood Furies either all die or are reduced to such numbers that they are negligible.

And do you really think that Sylvan loses to Dungeon in a Ranged duel? Dungeon has nothing that can match the sheer damage output of the Master Hunters. The killer unit of Dungeon is the hero, not the units.

If you place your units correctly,no matter how the AI puts its units youll reach them(remember that it doesnt split its units in all possible manners).Fighting a human is a different story.

Even if you can reach them it doesn't mean you'll suffer no losses.

I'll closely analyze the races I've played so far to show Dungeon's shortcomings:

Haven:

Peasants: Cannon Fodder.
Marksmen: Killer units.
Squires: Cannon Fodder.
Imperial Griffins: Finesse.
Inquistors: Supporter.
Champions: Killer units.
Archangels: Supporter, Finesse, Killer.

Inferno:

Familiars: Cannon Fodder.
Overseers: Cannon Fodder.
Cerberi: Killer.
Succubus Mistress: Killer.
Nightmares: Finesse.
Pit Lords: Killer / Supporter.
Archdevils: Killer.

Sylvan:

Sprites: Finesse.
War Dancers: Finesse.
Master Hunters: Killer.
Druid Elders: Killer.
Silver Unicorns: Finesse.
Treants: Cannon Fodder.
Emerald Dragons: Finesse.

Necropolis:

Skeleton Archers: Killer.
Plague Zombies: Cannon Fodder.
Spectres: Cannon Fodder.
Vampire Lords: Finesse, Killer.
Archliches: Killer.
Wraiths: Cannon Fodder, Killer.
Spectral Dragons: Killer.

Dungeon:

Assassins: Supporter.
Blood Furies: Finesse.
Minotaurs: Cannon Fodder (they're never going to get close enough to land good hits).
Grim Raiders: Finesse (a bit too low on Damage / HP to be true killers)
Deep Hydras: Canno Fodder (can't be a killer without powerful supporting magics)
Shadow Matriaches: Supporter (killer is debatable; Shadow Matriaches deal relatively low damage).
Black Dragons: Killer.

You see? All four of the other races have killer units at low levels. Haven's well-balanced (if a bit short on killing power once past early-game, until the Champions come into play). Inferno has something hidden here, Gating. This is a big advantage. Necropolis has a level 1 killing unit that will only increase in size, as well as Animate Dead to ensure zero losses. Sylvan's un-balanced with lots of finesse, but at least Sylvan has superb Ranged creatures to outfight the opponent with. Dungeon is the only race with little offensive power save the hero early (and the hero is nothing compared to 25 Master Hunters). Finesse can only get you so far; you need a true killer to actually get anywhere.

PS: I freely admit that I could be a bit biased, since Dungeon's clearly not my style. Don't quote me on the above

[Mytical]

Some people do have different playstyles and don't mesh with some towns. I like Dungeon and Haven (though Sylvan is my favorite atm), but dislike Necropolipse. It's not that Necropolipse is weak, far from it, but that they lack something for me. Academy was my favorite pre HoMM5, now it sits and collects dust for the time being. Dwarves are cool, but a bit weak until later. So yes it does depend on taste :0.

[Jolly Joker]

The Furies ARE real killers. The Raiders as well. You shouldn't forget the Raiders' special (no, not Lizard Bite but Rider Charge which means that if you move at least 5 spaces with them the opposing defense will always be 0 which means they will kill the high level 7 units of the opponent with the same ease as the low level ones. I mean, their base attack is 10. That means that they will even under a hero with attack 0 do 10-20 damage per Raider to ANY unit.
Against a Horde of Marksmen you can alternatively go in with 5 single Hydras and kill the Marksmen with the hero as well.
Battling what neutrals with what creatures depends on many things and is a question of experience and testing, but believe me you have a lot of attack power with the Dungeon.

[DaemianLucifer]

Suppose you get into a fight with Hordes of Marksmen. What are you going to do, charge the Blood Furies over? The Marksmen stack(s) will hit the Blood Furies in melee, and given their numbers you're forced to suffer casualties. If you don't charge the Blood Furies over they'll get shot to death while the Assassins look on helplessly. Even if you split the Blood Furies you're going to lose some Blood Furies, and given that Blood Furies are your killer creatures early, losing them is very bad.

Why would the marksmen hit the furries in melee?First,furies will incapacitate one stack of them on their first go.If they get high morale,thats another stack.If not,the raiders come in and incapaciate the other stack(and block the third if there is one).Third stack(if there is one)is being killed by the hero(because they have such a pitifull initiative).

You overly simplified things. My level 18 Raelag had 7 Deep Hydras and he fought 40+ Succubi. I lost 5 Deep Hydras. It'd be a good trade if I took something important in return (say, a Gold Mine), but Dungeon cannot keep this up. The next mine, if I try something similar and lose all the Deep Hydras, I'll have essentially incapacitated myself.

32 furries kill at least 10 succubi,and 70 assasins kill at least 10 more.20 grim raiders can charge also at least 10 of them to die.So unless you are really unlucky and they manage to both act first before those three creatures and your hero,I really dont see how you manage to loose.I remember that 30-60 succubi and succubi misstress stacks were quite a common fight there,and I never lost a single unit,especially because of aaeglrs special.

[wimfrits]

I'll closely analyze the races I've played so far to show Dungeon's shortcomings:

....

Nice analysis! I'll argue that:
- familiars are killers
- archliches deal too little damage to be killers and are more finesse to me.

Agree with your points on dungeon.
Grim raiders usually deal too little damage to survive retaliation unscatched. So charging won't be an option in most battles (if you want to preserve your units)

As for blood furies vs ranged units; the point is that you cannot afford losing blood furies. With the furies stats it means that you cannot afford to be attacked. So if there is a decent change that the ranged units will be able to land an attack on the furies, it automatically means that you cannot deploy blood furies. In most battles vs ranged, it means blood furies are not an option.

On the other hand, Dungeon has deep hydras. You can usuallly have the hydra's wait (the button) and regenerate while the ranged units/magic users use up their shots/mana. Depending on the number of opponents, you might need to cast some spells. In fights like the 7 hydra's vs 40 succubi you mentioned I remember I used 1 or 2 teleports to have the hydra's regenerate fully. But that's because I lacked decent dd spells at that point.
Boring battles, but it pretty much eliminates dungeons problems with ranged units.

[Gaidal Cain]

Against a Horde of Marksmen you can alternatively go in with 5 single Hydras and kill the Marksmen with the hero as well.

Stupid idea. Better keep them in one stack, so that they can regenerate back any losses. Since it's the hero that does the killing, you can keep waiting and waiting with hydras as long as you wish.

[Mytical]

A key to fighting succubi mistresses (alone) is limiting number of troops. They hit hard, but their power lies in the ability to hit multiple units. Take that away from them and they hurt a lot less. Creatures to use vs Mistresses per town.

Haven - Footmen, Cavaliers, or Angels (or their upgrades). Sure you loose a few of each (and upgrades help a lot), but they each have good abilities to go against just about any ranged or casting units. (Like Squires reduced ranged damage, Cavaliers charge, and Angels speed) Few deaths unless facing just an overwelming number of enemy units.

Inferno - doesn't matter they will only hit one unit anyhow so take everything you have and don't mind loosing.

Necropolipse - Well here is a tricky one, but spirits wights or vamps are good choices. You can use your skelly archers but be prepaired to spam raise dead if so. Of course the undead dragons also.

Dungeon - Minotaurs and Hydras are your best bet (pre dragon), but have Teleport Assult if so. Dragons of course rip through enemy casters and ranged like tissue.

Sylvan - Treants, Unicorns, dragons. Also don't underestimate Hunters or Druids. The only 2 I would never send against ranged (alone that is) is sprites or dancers. Not without some serious Summoning magic at least (AA and Phoenix).

Now Academy has some real trouble here. Vs casters it is the upgraded gargoyles or golems. Vs Ranged it gets tricky the Kittys are ok, but die easy and have limited growth. Still if you can get them to the ranged quick they can wreck all kinds of havoc. The only other thing I can suggest vs ranged is have teleport or use Titans. The other units will take a beating if going vs ranged (and vs succubus you don't want to split stack if at all possible). Still everything but gremlins are a possiblity, you are just going to take some more losses then most. Now if you can have some speed, init, and morale mini artifact on these it becomes a whole new ballgame.

[Jolly Joker]

Against a Horde of Marksmen you can alternatively go in with 5 single Hydras and kill the Marksmen with the hero as well.

Stupid idea. Better keep them in one stack, so that they can regenerate back any losses. Since it's the hero that does the killing, you can keep waiting and waiting with hydras as long as you wish.

Excuse me? It's only a stupid idea against Succubi, but last time I checked Regeneration didn't Resurrect dead Hydras. So it doesn't matter how many Hydras are in a stack: when you lose one you lose one. Going in with many stacks against Marksmen makes sure they can't concentrate their fire in the first round.

[Mytical]

Regenerate does bring back the dead. Also I would actually teleport assult and just defend so that retal can do some damage as well (and they wont be able to use ranged attacks).. If you have deflect missile or AA (which would be unusual) then they would do even better if you keep them away (deflect missile) or teleport them in (AA). Also curse, suffering, ect helps limit damage as does endurence.

Edited.

[DaemianLucifer]

Unless its been changed in 2.0 regeneration does raise dead hydras.

[Jolly Joker]

It does? Nothing in the manual. Man, I played a lot of Dungeon but never realized that (never needed it).

Actually it's still better to divide the Hydras, simply because two stacks regenerate more points and 3 still more. You just have to make sure each stack has enough creatures not to be killed completely.

[Mytical]

Except against Succubi Mistresses. But on all other accounts that is correct. If you can have at least 3 in each stack and multiple stacks, then you indeed have a better chance. Since Mistresses hit multi units, this looses some effectiveness when facing them. I'd still teleport instead of defend (if possible) because then you get retals and except for some instances reduced damage.

[DaemianLucifer]

Actually it's still better to divide the Hydras, simply because two stacks regenerate more points and 3 still more. You just have to make sure each stack has enough creatures not to be killed completely.

That is correct only if you fight weak units.What if you fight some archers or casters that would concentrate just on one of them?But if they kill just one hydra,in a single stack it will raise.